Trainline- journey to printer paid for but required to buy a separate ticket

[sbros]

Merseyrail are prosecuting me and the matter is now listed for a hearing next month. I would appreciate the opinions of forum members as to my chances of a positive outcome at the Magistrates Court

The circumstances are as follows. I bought a ticket the night before a journey planned for the following morning using the Trainline app on my Iphone. The journey involved travel along the local Merseyrail network to Liverpool City Centre and then onward travel to another city. My expectation when using the app was that I would be issued with an e-ticket as occurs on other routes. Instead an email confirming my purchase provided only a ticket collection reference. The next morning when arriving at my local station I was told that I had to travel to Liverpool Lime Street station to print off the ticket and further in order to make that journey I had to buy a further ticket for that part of the journey. This in my view was plainly unreasonable as I would effectively be paying twice for part of a journey I had already paid for. Having made this point the attendant said “you can do what you like I’m not bothered but you’ll get a penalty fare”. There was clearly no point in taking this further at that point and I boarded a train to Liverpool city centre where upon arrival I was issued with a penalty notice. Immediately after I printed off the ticket at the mainline station and continued on my journey

The prosecution alleges a breach of s5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The relevant part reads:

(3) If any person—
(a) Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare,*and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……
he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine……

In my defence I pointed out to Merseyrail that I had previously paid the required fare and consequently there was no intent to avoid payment. Merseyrail’s response didn’t address this point but stated that the Merseyrail/Trainline rules require that a valid ticket is held prior to making a journey. They further say I should have chosen the option to have a ticket delivered to my phone. I have since responded to this by providing screen shots of the Trainline process which shows there was no option to purchase an eticket for this particular journey.

I have now received notification from Merseyrail of the trial date. The letter states that Merseyrail will seek full costs amounting to £500 and provides an option of an out of court settlement at a cost of £75.

I’m very aggrieved about this matter and this feeling is compounded by what I consider to be the unprofessional manner shown so far by the company’s prosecutions unit. Whatever the outcome of the prosecution I intend making a formal complaint. It is unacceptable that members of the public are entrapped by a process administered on behalf of the rail company. The Trainline app gives no warning as to the manner of delivery up until payment has been made nor does it make any reference to the need to buy another ticket in order to access the printing machine at additional cost and inconvenience.

Your observations would be appreciated. In particular are there any precedents for this situation? I’m sure I won’t be the first person ensnared in this fashion

Best Regards

 

[Gareth Marston]

Several points in short Merseyrail is a penalty fare zone and ticket buying facilities either a booking office from first train of day to last to TVM exist at all stations. By not having a valid ticket when you boarded you clearly black and white have fallen foul of it. I would settle out of court. It's clear cut I'm afraid and you were warned at the originating station by staff there.

As to Trainline......your confirmation e mail will have given you instructions as to where and how to collect your ticket. look at what it says I can guarentee it didn't advice you to board a train in a penalty fare zone without a valid ticket.

Never make assumptions about online purchases on the railway or anywhere else.

 

[185143]

Regardless of the outcome of the court case-you can definately make a customer service complaint. The total non-existance of Ticket on Departure on the Merseyrail network is totally unacceptable.

Did you select to collect your tickets from your origin station-were you told that the origin had no TOD facility?

Why didn't you pay the Penalty Fare and then complain?

On another note-don't use the Trainline!

 

[Darandio]

Why didn't you pay the Penalty Fare and then complain?

Despite being warned before boarding, they still proceeded without buying a ticket, I can hardly see how they would be willing to pay a penalty fare!

Playing hardball like this is probably going to end up very expensive.

 

[najaB]

Regardless of the outcome of the court case-you can definately make a customer service complaint. The total non-existance of Ticket on Departure on the Merseyrail network is totally unacceptable.

Acceptable or not, it is a fact.

 

[najaB]

I would appreciate the opinions of forum members as to my chances of a positive outcome at the Magistrates Court.

Very low. You were given the correct advice by the staff member at your starting station and chose to ignore it and board a train without a ticket.

The fact that you were potentially misadvised by a third-party ticket seller doesn't change those facts of the case.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You mind find a solicitor willing to make an argument regarding s(5)3 of the RORA. However, you are bang to rights on s(5)1 and Merseyrail may well prefer to prosecute you under that section instead.

A RORA act conviction will see you with a criminal record for fare evasion.

Is it "fair", given you had paid for a ticket, but were unable to collect it at your starting station? No. Unfortunately, the law is on the side of the TOCs in cases like this which are really customer service issues.

The law requires that you need a ticket and you were warned to get a ticket before you travelled. You chose to ignore that warning and are now facing the consequence. As many people coming here find, the penalties for ticketless travel can be unduly harsh.

My advice - pay the £75, stop potential court action now, and avoid a criminal record and additional expense.

Chalk it up to experience, but continue to fight the matter with customer services after the event and try to get the £75 back.

Edited to Add:

Clearly, you did give your name and address for the matter to get this far. Arguments could be made that a RORA prosecution would not succeed, though you would need help, advice and a sympathetic court for a positive result. There is no doubt that you are guilty of a Railways Byelaw offence, section 17 or 18 and Merseyrail could easily (and expensively) win in court.

 

[DaleCooper]

I thought you had to specify a station for collecting the ticket.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

You were under the impression that you purchased an eticket. What you actually purchased was a normal ticket that requires you to collect it from a ticket vending machine before starting your journey. If your journey starts at a station where there aren't ticket issuing facilities then you must make arrangements to collect it from an alternative station before your journey starts. This should have been clear on the email confirmation your received from trainline.

Others are far more qualified than me to answer of the legal aspect but you will not win at the Magistrates Court. Pay the £75 out of court settlement asap to stop the matter escalating and chalk it up to experience. You might then want to take the matter up with the trainline Customer Services.

In future I wouldn't use the trainline. They add booking and credit card fees which can be avoided by using a train operating company website. The trainline are never cheaper despite their advertising claims.

 

[najaB]

I'm also a little puzzled as to how the OP ended up in this situation. If you attempt to use TheTrainline app to buy a ticket for which: (a) there is no eTicket option; and (b) starts at a station where you can't collect the ticket you get the warning in the attached screen capture.

 

[najaB]

In my defence I pointed out to Merseyrail that I had previously paid the required fare and consequently there was no intent to avoid payment.

A ticket is proof that you had paid the fare and there was no intent to avoid payment. Not that you would, but someone could pay for a ticket online, claim that they were unable to collect it, make the journey, and then refund the ticket.

In any case, you were specifically told that you needed to pay for the journey to Liverpool Lime Street and you did not. That's enough for a conviction.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Possibly I may be over-simplifying here. But the OP describes a prosecution for a specific offence. He does not describe a penalty fare, does not describe an option for out-of-court settlement etc. And he describes how he clearly has not actually committed that specific offence, and can prove it - doesn't he? I'm no legal expert, but from what I see here, if I were a magistrate/judge/etc., and someone were being prosecuted for "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……" when the FARE had in fact been paid there is no case to answer. This does not make any reference to a requirement to carry a ticket; merely to have intent to avoid payment - and you can't have intent to avoid payment if you have paid - surely?! I'd dismiss it and award costs against the TOC for being bloody awkward!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Possibly I may be over-simplifying here. But the OP describes a prosecution for a specific offence. He does not describe a penalty fare, does not describe an option for out-of-court settlement etc. And he describes how he clearly has not actually committed that specific offence, and can prove it - doesn't he? I'm no legal expert, but from what I see here, if I were a magistrate/judge/etc., and someone were being prosecuted for "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……" when the FARE had in fact been paid there is no case to answer. This does not make any reference to a requirement to carry a ticket; merely to have intent to avoid payment - and you can't have intent to avoid payment if you have paid - surely?! I'd dismiss it and award costs against the TOC for being bloody awkward!

He's traveled between Station A on Merseyrail and Lime St without a valid ticket and refused to pay for one when challenged. Having a collection refernce number from Trainline is not the point he has to have a valid ticket to travel.

 

[185143]

Possibly I may be over-simplifying here. But the OP describes a prosecution for a specific offence. He does not describe a penalty fare, does not describe an option for out-of-court settlement etc. And he describes how he clearly has not actually committed that specific offence, and can prove it - doesn't he? I'm no legal expert, but from what I see here, if I were a magistrate/judge/etc., and someone were being prosecuted for "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……" when the FARE had in fact been paid there is no case to answer. This does not make any reference to a requirement to carry a ticket; merely to have intent to avoid payment - and you can't have intent to avoid payment if you have paid - surely?! I'd dismiss it and award costs against the TOC for being bloody awkward!

Whilst I agree in principle-that's not how it works. The offence is failing to show a valid ticket when requested to do so. The fact that the passenger has paid is (to a degree) irrelavent. Some TOCs may show discretion later if proof that the passenger did have a ticket is presented-but they are by no means obliged to.

 

[najaB]

I'm no legal expert, but from what I see here, if I were a magistrate/judge/etc., and someone were being prosecuted for "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……" when the FARE had in fact been paid there is no case to answer. This does not make any reference to a requirement to carry a ticket; merely to have intent to avoid payment - and you can't have intent to avoid payment if you have paid - surely?! I'd dismiss it and award costs against the TOC for being bloody awkward!

I can see how you reached that conclusion, however it is wrong for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, a potential ticket is not a ticket. The OP had paid for a journey but had not yet obtained their authority to travel. Without authority - in the form of a ticket or permission from an authorised person - they are treated as having not paid. So it's necessary to limit our consideration to a ticketless passenger at [name of station] who wanted to travel to Liverpool Lime Street.

Secondly, intent is inferred from actions. The OP was told that they needed to pay for the journey to Liverpool Lime Street. With respect to that journey only, they refused to pay and boarded after having been specifically told not to. This meets the necessary criteria for a RoRA prosecution as they travelled without previously paying their fare and it's reasonable to assume that having refused to pay their fare once, that they had no intent to pay it at all.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've just gone on The Trainline website (I never use it to buy tickets), to try to replicate the process of buying a ticket from a Mereyrail station to somewhere else- in my case, Formby to London Euston for tomorrow.

When it gets to how I want to receive the ticket, it only gives me the option to collect the ticket from a machine and it clearly warns me that Formby doesn't have this facility and that I would have to collect it from a station it lists.

"We're sorry, your ticket cannot be collected from Formby.
Please select a station you would prefer to collect your tickets from. You will still be able to collect your tickets from over 1700 stations listed."

Whilst I agree with other posters and feel that Merseyrail should offer passengers the ability to collect internet purchased tickets from ticket machines at their stations, they're not obliged to and they don't advertise this as being the case.

Yes it's frustrating to have been asked to pay again for part of the journey you've already paid for, however, it is 100% your own fault for not following your obligation to collect your valid ticket before travel. (This is clearly advised at the point of sale)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Whilst I'm not familiar with TOD collection arrangements on suburban Merseyrail stations the OP confirmation e mail will have had instructions of where he could collect the ticket. Why didn't he follow the instructions? Answer because people don't bother to read them. Going online to buy a rail ticket looks like its been a costly experience for the OP having bought the night before the chances of him getting cheap AP tickets for his journey are remote and like most Trainline customers hes probably bought the same ticket he could have on the day from a TVM or Booking Office and paid a premium for it in booking fees and possibly credit card fees.

 

[100andthirty]

Is it possible that the magistrate might take the view that as the OP had paid his fare even though he didn't have the right shaped piece of cardboard, there is no case to answer?

This nonsense re on line sales where you must have the ticket before travelling but they can't be collected from the origin station has to end. Equip all stations or adopt nationwide etickets with print at home back up if no smart phone. Rant over.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Your observations would be appreciated. In particular are there any precedents for this situation? I’m sure I won’t be the first person ensnared in this fashion

You were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel, and that you cannot do this at a Merseyrail station. You ignored this.

You were told you needed to buy a new ticket, which would have cost you a couple of quid. You ignored this.

You were then told you needed to pay a Penalty Fare, which would have cost you £20. You ignored this.

You have now been prosecuted. This will cost you a significant sum of money- think at least three figures. You were warned they would prosecute you. You ignored this.

You can flounce as much as you want about whether a reference number is evidence of paying a fare- it isn't- and you can huff and puff as much as you want about whether a reference number should be treated as a valid ticket- it isn't.

My observations? Having a temper tantrum like a little toddler is expensive. Your attitude has already cost you £70+. I can only suggest you reflect on that, and reflect on your own behaviour, rather than trying to play the poor-little-victim card. You, and you alone, are responsible for this.

 

[lejog]

You were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel, and that you cannot do this at a Merseyrail station. You ignored this..

Sorry, if I'm missing something here, but where has it been established that the app says you need to collect your ticket before travel?

The screenshot posted by najaB says nothing about collecting the ticket before travel, its ambiguous and may be interpreted by some as giving permission to pick up the ticket en-route.

Yes I'm fully aware of the law and that ignorance of the law is not a defence, but I feel the poster deserves a more sympathetic response, the Trainline app appears to be poorly worded and Merseyrail look to have threatened prosecution under an inappropriate section of the law.

However once again the rail industry (and some members of this forum) expects passengers to pay for their mistakes, while the rail industry get away with theirs.

 

[lejog]

I've just gone on The Trainline website (I never use it to buy tickets), to try to replicate the process of buying a ticket from a Mereyrail station to somewhere else- in my case, Formby to London Euston for tomorrow.

When it gets to how I want to receive the ticket, it only gives me the option to collect the ticket from a machine and it clearly warns me that Formby doesn't have this facility and that I would have to collect it from a station it lists.

"We're sorry, your ticket cannot be collected from Formby.
Please select a station you would prefer to collect your tickets from. You will still be able to collect your tickets from over 1700 stations listed."

Whilst I agree with other posters and feel that Merseyrail should offer passengers the ability to collect internet purchased tickets from ticket machines at their stations, they're not obliged to and they don't advertise this as being the case.

Yes it's frustrating to have been asked to pay again for part of the journey you've already paid for, however, it is 100% your own fault for not following your obligation to collect your valid ticket before travel. (This is clearly advised at the point of sale)

The OP states he used the Trainline app, not the website. If Najab's screenshot is the only warning on the app, it is anything but clearly advised the point of sale that the ticket should be collected before travel.

 

[AlterEgo]

£75 seems a bargain at this point.

Many of us agree that the ticketing arrangements are very poor on Merseyrail. That much is true. But you repeatedly ignored advice on how to stay out of trouble. A few pounds to get you to Lime Street is all it would have taken for you to avoid ending up in this situation - and you'd have been able to argue the toss after the fact.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, if I'm missing something here, but where has it been established that the app says you need to collect your ticket before travel?

The app does not clearly state this, but in my view this doesn't necessarily offer a defence to the RoRA charge on the OP. The law is the law - you must show a ticket when requested.

I accept your general point though, that the advice does seem to be that you "can collect them at another station" without clearly stating that has to be before you embark on your journey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The screenshot posted by najaB says nothing about collecting the ticket before travel, its ambiguous and may be interpreted by some as giving permission to pick up the ticket en-route.

The OP was told by station staff that it didn't give him permission to pick up the ticket en-route. The station staff warned him that he would be liable for a Penalty Fare. The OP ignored the station staff and, lo and behold, was charged a Penalty Fare. The OP clearly also failed to pay this Penalty Fare.

And because of this,

I feel the poster deserves a more sympathetic response

I don't agree.

I can't see how Merseyrail could have done anything more to avoid this situation. What Trainline might say on their app is nothing to do with them. For a couple of quid you buy a ticket and you argue about it later. The OP should consider this a lesson. £75 is a bargain, but still an expensive flounce.

 

[lejog]

The app does not clearly state this, but in my view this doesn't necessarily offer a defence to the RoRA charge on the OP. The law is the law - you must show a ticket when requested.

I accept your general point though, that the advice does seem to be that you "can collect them at another station" without clearly stating that has to be before you embark on your journey.

Well yes as I said ignorance of the law is not a defence. But where the railway industry appear to have made 2 cock ups, I do feel a little more sympathy should be shown and they certainly do not deserve the blatant fabrication of evidence against them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the blatant fabrication of evidence against them.

I don't use Trainline because of their fees, but I do use VTWC, who use Trainline to power their website.

My experience is that they do make it clear you cannot travel on a booking reference. You need the ticket.

Their email confirmation says this:

Please note this is NOT your ticket

You have chosen the FastTicket collection option.

You can collect your ticket(s) at the FastTicket machine at CARLISLE. Ticket(s) will be ready for collection 15 minute(s) after booking.

To collect tickets you'll need to key in your FastTicket reference number below and bring the card you used to make the booking. If you don't you will have to buy a new ticket at the fare available on the day for your journey. Please ensure you collect all your tickets and receipt as they can't be replaced and you will need them to travel.

If Trainline doesn't say this, then I stand corrected. That said, I do not think that the app is ambiguous: you cannot collect your ticket there.

But my point still stands: the OP asked station staff what to do and was told what to do. The OP did not like this answer, and so they ignored it. These are the consequences of that action.

There's only one party who has made a mistake here, and it isn't Merseyrail.

 

[DaleCooper]

Well yes as I said ignorance of the law is not a defence. But where the railway industry appear to have made 2 cock ups, I do feel a little more sympathy should be shown and they certainly do not deserve the blatant fabrication of evidence against them.

What is this "blatant fabrication of evidence "?

 

[najaB]

Well yes as I said ignorance of the law is not a defence. But where the railway industry appear to have made 2 cock ups...

I don't see where there has been a cockup. The OP was given clear instruction as to what they needed to do and decided to ignore it.

 

[Dai Corner]

You can collect your tickets as the Fasticket machine at xxxxxx

could very easily be read as "as your origin station doesn't have ticket collection facilities you can board there and pick up your tickets at xxxxx"

 

[lejog]

The OP was told by station staff that it didn't give him permission to pick up the ticket en-route. The station staff warned him that he would be liable for a Penalty Fare. The OP ignored the station staff and, lo and behold, was charged a Penalty Fare. The OP clearly also failed to pay this Penalty Fare.

I'll remind of you what you said in the first place.

You were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel, and that you cannot do this at a Merseyrail station. You ignored this.

Have you any evidence for this or is it a fabrication?

While I don't doubt the OP went on to do the things you describe, don't you see that he may have been mislead by the app not telling him to collect a ticket before travel as you claim, but giving the impression he could collect en-route?

I can't see how Merseyrail could have done anything more to avoid this situation. What Trainline might say on their app is nothing to do with them.

Frankly this attitude stinks and to me and is one of the major problems of the rail industry today. The passenger pays for a ticket to get him from a to b and has the expectation that the rail industry will deliver. The structure of the rail industry is of little concern to them. Of course what Traveline say is the concern of Merseyrail, the TOCs appointed Traveline as agents and have a contract with them by which means they should be managing them. If they aren't managing them correctly, that is not the passengers fault.

This, its nothing to do with them is (a) frankly a pathetic excuse and (b) highly likely outwith contract law.