'End of the line for first class'

[A Challenge]

According to the Daily Telegraph it is the 'End of the line for first class, seen here on pressreader, taken from an article in March despite being in the paper today.

FIRST-class carriages on busy trains should be removed to ease overcrowding, the Department for Transport has suggested following a Daily Telegraph investigation.
Services could be made standard class-only under a new franchise agreement for routes currently operated by Southeastern, as part of measures the DfT is considering in a public consultation.
The recommendations follow an investigation by this newspaper which found that a large number of first-class carriages remain half-empty even in rush hours.
The research involved intercity trains arriving in London at Paddington, Waterloo, Liverpool Street and King’s Cross between 8am and 9am on three consecutive weekdays. Trains typically had three first-class carriages and five standard-class carriages.

The bolded bits make no sense. Southeastern serves none of those locations.

 

[jopsuk]

The recommendation isn't based on the newspaper hanging around on those station platforms.

 

[47802]

I think its long overdue keep it for the longer intercity routes but axe it for South Eastern, Southern, GN, Gatex, Thameslink, London Midland, GWR non IEP services, South Western except routes covered by 442,444 and 159, Anglia of course is already adopting this with the abandonment of First apart from London Norwich.

 

[yorkie]

According to the Daily Telegraph it is the 'End of the line for first class, .....

It isn't.

I can confidently predict the journeys I regularly make in 1st class will continue to have a 1st class offering for many decades to come.

I am prepared to pay extra for more legroom, a better seat, more space, a better quality service, and that is exactly what I get, sometimes for only £10 more for a journey of around 200 miles.

However we have seen 1st class removed from some operators whose customers mostly make shorter distance journeys and for which there is no material difference between 1st class and standard. This is nothing new and it is not at all surprising to see more routes go this way.

When Chiltern removed 1st class, it didn't mean the end of 1st class across the network, and it doesn't mean that now.

As is often the case, standards of journalism are all too often quite poor (there are of course many good journalists out there, such as the ones I know who are members of this forum) and therefore it is of no surprise to see a newspaper both exaggerating the story, and making mistakes such as claiming stations are served by an operator who doesn't serve them.

 

[Kettledrum]

In the article it said:

"Trains typically had three first-class carriages and five standard-class carriages."

and therein lies the problem. The balance is wrong. Perhaps 1.5 first class and 6.5 second class would be more acceptable to all.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Apologies off topic as Euston isn't mentioned in the article, however, from my experience of travelling with VT since they reduced the number of First Class carriages on 9 car Pendolinos, I tend to find First Class to be very busy, even on off peak services.

I fully agree that Standard Class needed an increase in capacity, however, I do feel that the decrease on First Class capacity is quite problematic at times.

 

[yorksrob]

For intercity trains, there's no reason to have five full standard class trains and three empty first class ones. It just means they've got the pricing wrong.

There are always people willing to upgrade for the right price.

 

[Senex]

In the article it said:

"Trains typically had three first-class carriages and five standard-class carriages."

and therein lies the problem. The balance is wrong. Perhaps 1.5 first class and 6.5 second class would be more acceptable to all.

And which trains are those? King's Cross is mentioned. If the reference is to the long-distance trains, which are the only ones of anything like that formation, then first-class vehicles on trains arriving between 8 and 9 will be very well occupied and most certainly earning their keep.

 

[NSEFAN]

In the article it said:

"Trains typically had three first-class carriages and five standard-class carriages."

and therein lies the problem. The balance is wrong. Perhaps 1.5 first class and 6.5 second class would be more acceptable to all.

To be honest, it's not really worth having first class on the London commuter routes these days, especially given how they are almost identical on the newest EMUs. Chiltern had the right idea: if we are struggling to give everyone a seat then it's a better use of the space to make the whole lot standard class, and save first class for the Intercity routes where it's possible to actually offer an higher quality service in 1st class (hot food, bigger seats, etc).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Chiltern had the right idea: if we are struggling to give everyone a seat then it's a better use of the space to make the whole lot standard class, and save first class for the Intercity routes where it's possible to actually offer an higher quality service in 1st class (hot food, bigger seats, etc).

Chiltern did reintroduce first class in a manner of speaking with their development of Business Class on the Birmingham services. One of the other motivations of Chiltern was so that they could mix and match on train lengths so as to run any length from 2 to 7 or 8. That's easier if they don't have the provision or excess provision of first class to worry about.

On the lines from Paddington, abolition of first class is already happening to an extent. The IC125s had a first class carriage converted to second and the 165s were declassified like Chiltern. What should happen when long distance stock is used for commuter work, the 125s to and from Reading being an example, remains to be seen? Also should commuter stock such as 166s which sometimes does longer distance work to Oxford and beyond retain its first class?

Is it only Pendolinos and 91/Mk4 that have the excessive number of first class carriages mentioned in the report? I suppose the Kings Cross HSTs also have the traditional 2 and a half first class carriages.

 

[David Andrews]

Those of us in Northern territory have never had first class even on journeys of four hours plus.

 

[daikilo]

Those of us in Northern territory have never had first class even on journeys of four hours plus.

If you go back to pre-nationalisation, most 1st Gen DMUs and LHCS rakes had sections or full coaches marked and operated as 1st class.

 

[Sleepy]

IC trains arriving at Liverpool St only have 2 first class and 7 std coaches, arrivals at that time have 85 - 95 % seats occupied in first class (possibly lower on Fridays) so a good revenue earner for GA !

 

[mrcheek]

Those of us in Northern territory have never had first class even on journeys of four hours plus.

First Class exists on most routes to London, and on long distance cross country and trans-pennine services. On local routes, there isnt generally First Class whether youre in the north, the south, or Wales. Scotland has a few services that do.

I remember being angry when a reduction in First Class was proposed on FGW/GWR services to London. But if anything, it seems even emptier since they reduced it to one carriage. I think its mainly businesses cutting down on First Class travel.

I can certainly see First Class being abolished on all local commuter services into London, and being reduced elsewhere. But theres no way they would do away with it altogether on long distance services into London. I hope not anyway, as it would ruin my annual All Line Rover

 

[t_star2001uk]

According to the Daily Telegraph it is the 'End of the line for first class, seen here on pressreader, taken from an article in March despite being in the paper today.


The bolded bits make no sense. Southeastern serves none of those locations.

If you would care to read the whole article instead of the first couple of paragraphs the Southeastern bit makes complete sense...

 

[tbtc]

As is often the case, standards of journalism are all too often quite poor (there are of course many good journalists out there, such as the ones I know who are members of this forum) and therefore it is of no surprise to see a newspaper both exaggerating the story, and making mistakes such as claiming stations are served by an operator who doesn't serve them.

There's a similar story in the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...irst-class-carriages-on-commuter-trains#img-1) with some actual quotes from Mr Grayling:

The days of commuters crammed cheek-by-jowl in overcrowded train carriages while first-class compartments remain half-empty could be coming to an end.

The transport secretary, Chris Grayling, said first-class carriages will be cancelled on busy suburban routes in a bid to reduce rush-hour overcrowding.

He said he did not see the case for different sections on shorter train routes and that the government will tell train companies “you can’t start segregating” in future deals.

Grayling travels to Westminster by train from his home in his Epsom and Ewell constituency in north Surrey and said he appreciated commuters’ frustration when trains are overcrowded. “I absolutely understand what a total pain it is if you are standing on a train for 20-30 minutes on the way to work,” he told the Daily Telegraph.

Grayling said he was committed to cancelling the first-class carriages on commuter routes and wanted train companies to take action if passengers demanded it. “I don’t really see a case for a non-longer-distance journey for there to be any division between first and second class. There should just be one class on the train.”

First-class carriages had already been scrapped on some routes, said Grayling.
“We have got rid of it on some of the trains in south-east London as part of the new franchise … people will see less first class in the future as we start to say that on busy suburban trains you can’t start segregating.”

For me, it looks like a good distraction from the news about electrification (or lack of!). Much easier to divert the journalists/ columnists/ angry opinionated bloggers (etc) into a predictable argument about the dumbing down of Britain's railways/ the class system/ the resources allocated so posh people can sit in 2+1 seats whilst the plebs are forced to stand or crammed into 3+2 seating/ another regrettable loss of quality since the days when every train had a restaurant car and every station had a Porter... depending on where you are on the political spectrum

It seems a cynical way to divert headlines into something we all have prejudiced opinions on, rather than a more nuanced debate about the catastrophe that CP5 electrification has turned into. And, sadly, from looking round today's press, the Government has managed to move the debate away from "why did the GWML go so overbudget, causing investment to be scrapped as far away as Swansea/ Sheffield/ Windermere" to one about the rights and wrongs of First Class.

(I'm fine with First Class as long as it's busy enough to warrant the 2+1 seating etc - there's a time and place for it - I wouldn't bother paying for it on an Electrostar etc where you don't get much more for your money but there are routes where it is certainly justified)

 

[BestWestern]

And which trains are those? King's Cross is mentioned. If the reference is to the long-distance trains, which are the only ones of anything like that formation, then first-class vehicles on trains arriving between 8 and 9 will be very well occupied and most certainly earning their keep.

I'm slightly baffled too. Nothing arriving into Paddington has three first class coaches; HSTs have one and a half first and six and a half standard, 180s have one first and four standard. Turbos have a little bit at one end with about ten seats in. Similarly at Waterloo, a 444 has about three quarters of a coach of first class, and the other four and a bit are standard. A 450 has maybe a third of a coach out of four, a 158 or 159 has perhaps a quarter of a coach out of two or three. To have three first class coaches at Waterloo would require a twelve car 450, and even then the actual first class area would only equal roughly one full carriage, or a nine car Sprinter formation, which would equally be less than a full carriage. A ten car 444 would add up to about one and a half coaches worth.

To have come up with an 'average' of three first and five standard, given that two of the four stations have significantly less than that, must mean some stuff landing at Liverpool St and the the Cross must be pretty much half and half! Or perhaps there's a touch of creative reporting going on here...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Creative reporting I think. Though as built Pendolinos were half and half.

 

[anti-pacer]

Those of us in Northern territory have never had first class even on journeys of four hours plus.

True, but I can't think of any journey on one Northern train that is that long. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We do also have TPE which cover the longer journeys across most of the North's population centres, which do have First Class.

 

[Essexman]

I am in the category who are willing to pay more for the extra room and quiet of first class but not the full walk on first class fare. Generally I’d pay up to about £10 per hour of journey extra for first class and sometimes choose a train / route where I can do this to enhance the quality of my journey –to me now enjoyment of journey is usually more important than speed.

I saw an example of the demand for first this week on a lunchtime train from Devon to Paddington. The single coach wasn’t enough for demand so first class were given two bays in the restaurant, reducing space for those of us who wanted to eat (fortunately there were still just enough seats for the demand but some probably left seats empty elsewhere to eat.)

Another example of the need for first class is someone I knew who had been ill and couldn’t cope with packed standard class for commuting so bought a first class season ticket. Without his they wouldn’t have been able to travel to work.

 

[Senex]

It seems a cynical way to divert headlines into something we all have prejudiced opinions on, rather than a more nuanced debate about the catastrophe that CP5 electrification has turned into. And, sadly, from looking round today's press, the Government has managed to move the debate away from "why did the GWML go so overbudget, causing investment to be scrapped as far away as Swansea/ Sheffield/ Windermere" to one about the rights and wrongs of First Class.

Yes, a typically cynical bit of news-management by a politician.

 

[physics34]

“I absolutely understand what a total pain it is if you are standing on a train for 20-30 minutes on the way to work"..but quite happy to have 700s running about with less seats where people are gonna be standing for over 45 mins!!!

 

[Darandio]

True, but I can't think of any journey on one Northern train that is that long. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Carlisle to Preston is 4hrs 20mins+

 

[47271]

I remember being angry when a reduction in First Class was proposed on FGW/GWR services to London. But if anything, it seems even emptier since they reduced it to one carriage. I think its mainly businesses cutting down on First Class travel.

I think it's more the cheeky prices GWR generally asks for First Class, even in almost empty off peak services - I'm convinced that they're doing themselves out of revenue by making the differential too high. I can rarely justify their First Class prices for work, whereas I can always find a decent price on either Virgin operator.

 

[anti-pacer]

Carlisle to Preston is 4hrs 20mins+

Fair enough, but who realistically would do that end to end when you can do it in little over an hour on VTWC?

 

[swt_passenger]

The BBC version seems to stick to a more reasonable explanation, implying it is about commuter routes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40690621

In the SWT area, I wonder if we'll see in due course that all the future Aventra operated routes will be standard only by default. Which leads to the question of whether or not the 458/5s will actually get first class back when transferred to the Reading route (as has been predicted over the last couple of years)?

As has been discussed before, the 444s are about the only post privatisation stock where the first class is substantially different, and on a time/distance basis does the Weymouth route still justify its quasi-intercity status? I suppose similar debate can be had about the East Anglia mainline. It might be difficult to argue that First isn't needed in Kent, but is still needed in Surrey and Hampshire.

 

[lincolnshire]

Thursday at Doncaster station I actually counted 72 first class passengers on the 11-15 Kings Cross to Edinburgh which was occupying 3 coaches as against the rest of the train been well filled to capacity.
I also wonder how many actually paid the full fare and how many was travelling on cheap deals.
I too think its time to seriously look at does it need 3 first class coaches and the additional expenses of staff as well running about after the passengers. A better idea would be one first class coach and let them pay the proper price for the service they want and not discount the prices to fill the empty seats, so if you want to travel first class you pay the proper charges for the service you want.

Its a bit like the standard class is subsidising the first class a bit like the airlines was at one time when the business and first class passengers stopped travelling and the airlines had to rely on the ordinary passengers to keep flying.

Lets see what happens next.

 

[anti-pacer]

Wouldn't a sensible approach to this to do what Eurostar do and have 3 classes?

Standard - self-explanatory

Standard Plus - like First Class but without the full offerings. Maybe complimentary hot or cold drinks. Set fares with cheaper advance tickets available.

Premier - Full First Class with meals served and alcohol after midday. Set fares with no discounts.

 

[Mag_seven]

Wouldn't a sensible approach to this to do what Eurostar do and have 3 classes?

Standard - self-explanatory

Standard Plus - like First Class but without the full offerings. Maybe complimentary hot or cold drinks. Set fares with cheaper advance tickets available.

Premier - Full First Class with meals served and alcohol after midday. Set fares with no discounts.

BR intercity did something like that with a thing called "Silver Standard". As far as I can recall the standard class coach next to the buffet was reserved for full fare standard class ticket holders with a complimentary at seat service.

 

[BestWestern]

Wouldn't a sensible approach to this to do what Eurostar do and have 3 classes?

Standard - self-explanatory

Standard Plus - like First Class but without the full offerings. Maybe complimentary hot or cold drinks. Set fares with cheaper advance tickets available.

Premier - Full First Class with meals served and alcohol after midday. Set fares with no discounts.

Nightmare for the onboard staff (people tending to be less well mannered on a 'normal' train than they are on a Eurostar ).