'End of the line for first class'

[ScotTrains]

For intercity trains, there's no reason to have five full standard class trains and three empty first class ones. It just means they've got the pricing wrong.

There are always people willing to upgrade for the right price.

I agree. I would go further and say that ALL trains should have some sort of 1st class provision. For example, I'm sure many people would happily pay extra for 1st class on the (rural) Scottish scenic routes providing a nice seat, with a guaranteed view, complimentary catering, nicer onboard environment etc. Provided the ticket price is reasonable. In fact on any route I'm sure there will be some willing to upgrade at the right price.

Likewise, on commuter routes there will often be people willing to pay extra for 1st as it increases their chance of getting a seat. Also, many travelling on business will get 1st class paid for by their company. Last week I was on a peak time TPEx service from Manchester. 1st class was standing! This was after the ticket check. Most people (manly business types) got off at the next stations, Wigan or Preston. This shows there is clearly a demand for 1st class commuter travel.

Clearly a balance need to be met between supply (amount of 1st class seats) and demand (willing and able to buy 1st class). By removing 1st class altogether won't add that many extra standard class seats and more importantly will actually reduce revenue for the railways. This could actually have the knock on effect of making standard class tickets more expensive!

Removing 1st class just to increase the amount of seats on each train is a very short term fix (at the expense of reducing revenue). In the long term I think they should be investing in longer trains, more frequent service and building more railways. British airways currently have a four class system as this helps to maximise revenue (people will upgrade at the right cost for them). There are always people willing to pay for an upgrade at the right price. If there are people on a train willing to pay the train companies more money just to sit in 1st class they should not be denied the opportunity.

 

[Andrew1395]

During the peak in to London terminals, anything under 30 mins the first clas is full. Maybe with standard ticket holders. But this idea that removing 48 first class seats on an 8 car is going to mean people will not be standing is ridiculous.

London Overground services into Euston in the peak are five car, no first class, and from South Kenton will not have a seat available for the 25 minute commute. London Midland Tring services will normally have every first class seat occupied in the peak and after 20.34 on the down

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

The BBC version seems to stick to a more reasonable explanation, implying it is about commuter routes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40690621

In the SWT area, I wonder if we'll see in due course that all the future Aventra operated routes will be standard only by default. Which leads to the question of whether or not the 458/5s will actually get first class back when transferred to the Reading route (as has been predicted over the last couple of years)?

As has been discussed before, the 444s are about the only post privatisation stock where the first class is substantially different, and on a time/distance basis does the Weymouth route still justify its quasi-intercity status? I suppose similar debate can be had about the East Anglia mainline. It might be difficult to argue that First isn't needed in Kent, but is still needed in Surrey and Hampshire.

Well at least the old ex 458/4 stock have proper first class seats, the old 460s do not.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the list of busiest trains I don't think removing first class is possible on them all.

1 Govia Thameslink 07:00 Brighton - Bedford 09:25 - Has first class but is a fairly long journey so should retain it.

2 Great Western Railway 07:34 Didcot Parkway - London Paddington 08:16 - Is pathed as an HST so not easy to remove but possible.

3 TransPennine Express 04:22 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport 08:47 - Long distance so should retain first class and most the overcrowding happens in the Manchester area.

4 TransPennine Express 16:00 Manchester Airport - Edinburgh Waverley 19:40 - Long distance so should retain first class and most the overcrowding happens in the Manchester area.

5 Heathrow Connect 07:51 Heathrow Terminal 5 - London Paddington 08:24 - Does not have First Class.

6 South West Trains 07:32 Woking - London Waterloo 08:19 - Has first class but could potentially be removed.

7 Great Western Railway 07:07 Henley-OnThames - London Paddington 07:54 - Has first class but could potentially be removed.

8 Govia Thameslink 08:08 Sutton - St. Albans City 09:29 - Does not have First Class.

9 London Midland 17:46 London Euston - Crewe 20:25 - Long distance so should retain first class and most the overcrowding happens between London and Milton Keynes area.

10 South West Trains 07:14 Alton - London Waterloo 08:22 - Long distance so should retain first class.

A large number of the trains that are overcrowded are long distance services that become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt on their way into a big city. For example with Stockport and Manchester there are 14 trains per hour and 8 of them are Long distance services and 6 of them have first class which would be unpopular to remove.

 

[mark-h]

Wouldn't a sensible approach to this to do what Eurostar do and have 3 classes?

I read somewhere that Virgin were intending to do a 3 class service on West Coast and XC services.

The provision of 3 disabled toilets on the Pendolinos was seemingly a result of this.

 

[Train man]

First class should be removed on on the Glasgow to Edinburgh to Falkirk High and made standard class permanently. Like other Glasgow to Edinburgh ScotRail services on the other 3 routes.

 

[Bishopstone]

If they are going to do this, they should get on with it rather than perpetually trailing it in the media.

Whilst first class tickets continue to be sold on non inter-city routes, this sort of narrative from the Government - that first class isn't fair on the majority - makes the job of enforcement harder because, in the eyes of some, it legitimises occupying first class on busy trains. (However 'busy' is defined)

Either act now, or cut the rhetoric.

 

[Abpj17]

Looking at the list of busiest trains I don't think removing first class is possible on them all.

1 Govia Thameslink 07:00 Brighton - Bedford 09:25 - Has first class but is a fairly long journey so should retain it.

8 Govia Thameslink 08:08 Sutton - St. Albans City 09:29 - Does not have First Class.

A large number of the trains that are overcrowded are long distance services that become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt on their way into a big city. For example with Stockport and Manchester there are 14 trains per hour and 8 of them are Long distance services and 6 of them have first class which would be unpopular to remove.

Despite the appearance of a long distance, the vast majority of passengers will be getting off in London or at one of the airports. Very few will do the full journey as a commute. Space is the issue.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. I would go further and say that ALL trains should have some sort of 1st class provision. For example, I'm sure many people would happily pay extra for 1st class on the (rural) Scottish scenic routes providing a nice seat, with a guaranteed view, complimentary catering, nicer onboard environment etc. Provided the ticket price is reasonable. In fact on any route I'm sure there will be some willing to upgrade at the right price.

Likewise, on commuter routes there will often be people willing to pay extra for 1st as it increases their chance of getting a seat. Also, many travelling on business will get 1st class paid for by their company. Last week I was on a peak time TPEx service from Manchester. 1st class was standing! This was after the ticket check. Most people (manly business types) got off at the next stations, Wigan or Preston. This shows there is clearly a demand for 1st class commuter travel.

Clearly a balance need to be met between supply (amount of 1st class seats) and demand (willing and able to buy 1st class). By removing 1st class altogether won't add that many extra standard class seats and more importantly will actually reduce revenue for the railways. This could actually have the knock on effect of making standard class tickets more expensive!

Removing 1st class just to increase the amount of seats on each train is a very short term fix (at the expense of reducing revenue). In the long term I think they should be investing in longer trains, more frequent service and building more railways. British airways currently have a four class system as this helps to maximise revenue (people will upgrade at the right cost for them). There are always people willing to pay for an upgrade at the right price. If there are people on a train willing to pay the train companies more money just to sit in 1st class they should not be denied the opportunity.

I agree. My proviso is that the 1st class section should be different enough to feel like a different product.

 

[ScotTrains]

First class should be removed on on the Glasgow to Edinburgh to Falkirk High and made standard class permanently. Like other Glasgow to Edinburgh ScotRail services on the other 3 routes.

That would be a bizarre move! That route is the fastest one between Scotland's two biggest cities and also Scotrail's flagship route. Many businessmen use this route and travel 1st class. Many leisure travellers go first class too (the weekend upgrade is quite reasonable!). Scotrail have recently introduce 1st class advance tickets on all of their 1st class routes except the Glasgow to Edinburgh one. The tickets are VERY popular and sell out weeks in advance! This shows there is clearly high demand for Scotrail 1st class (at the right price). I'm guessing Scotrail believe the Edinburgh to Glasgow route doesn't need advance tickets to encourage 1st class use.
Also, I think removing 1st class would only actually add 3 extra seats to each 1st class compartment on a turbostar.

 

[jon0844]

I think if first class was to be axed on all commuter services, the best time to announce it would be the start of the year as that's when the vast majority of season ticket holders will renew, and so prevent the need to issue loads of refunds.

 

[Welshman]

If you go back to pre-nationalisation, most 1st Gen DMUs and LHCS rakes had sections or full coaches marked and operated as 1st class.

The 1st Gen dmus had first class when originally built [eg. with class 101s it consisted of 12 seats at one end of the train, and at both ends with 110s]. But most of these were declassified later on. Again, using 110s as an example, this was when the centre car was removed in the 1980s.

Interesting too, is that the Virgin's 5-car Voyager trains originally had one 1st class coach, three Standard and one coach[ D] which was used as first when demand was high, but as standard at other times. That practice has now ceased, thankfully, as I remember on one occasion, boarding with no reservation at Euston, and entering coach D, only to be turned -out and told it was "1st Class" [despite there being neither anti-maccassars on the seats nor warnings on the doors/windows. I think a handful of passengers unable to be accommodated in the 1st-class coach E sat in glorious isolation in an otherwise-empty coach D, while the remainder of us were squeezed into coaches B, C & A!

 

[mike57]

I use TPE first class quite a bit for longer journeys, I can usually get 2 x first class advance singles for around the same price as an open standard class return as long as I book a few days in advance.

Last journey first class, which was 10 days ago from Seamer to Manchester Piccadilly, first class was full both ways, outward journey 06:35 from Seamer there were actually first class ticket holders without seats. Mind you a look into standard class showed a scene which was unpleasantly overcrowded. People were left behind at Leeds. Return journey was busy with only a couple of spare seats. TPE guards are fairly hot on moving non 1st ticket holders.

I am happy to pay a bit extra for some comfort on a 2 hour + journey, and obviously so are others. Ratio 1st to 2nd on the 185's is about 15 1st to 150 standard seats.

You get enough table space to do some work, and a free drink and biscuit, OK not gourmet standard, but better than nothing.

 

[Michael.Y]

I wonder which trains arriving in Paddington had 3 1st and 5 standard? GWR HSTs were "downgraded" to 6 (or even 6.5) to 1.5 a long time ago. And they're STILL full and standing on occasions. Some trains have roofed First Class as well.

One wonders a) how the natural Tory voters who typically inhabit 1st Class will react to their party attacking their little perks, and b) what the reaction would have been if it had been a Labour politician proposing this. I believe the phrase "politics of ency" would have been bandied about.

One also wonders what the TOCs will have to say about the government further squeezing ticket revenue streams.

 

[Busaholic]

Maybe Mr Grayling believes another General Election is in the offing!?

 

[David Andrews]

True, but I can't think of any journey on one Northern train that is that long. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We do also have TPE which cover the longer journeys across most of the North's population centres, which do have First Class.

eg 0515 Carlisle-Preston arrives 0937, 1520 Sundays Carlisle-Nottingham 1959

 

[adc82140]

GWR managed to remove FC from the class 165s and introduce the 387s without any, with little in the way of hoo-har. As did Chiltern all those years back in one of the richest parts of the country. I'm in agreement- retain on ex-Intercity routes and remove from commuter routes.

 

[Wivenswold]

This is clearly a government briefed article. This tactic is a Westminster favourite and serves the purpose of drip-feeding a potentially controversial notion into the public consciousness.

Two SE franchises are about to make a huge reduction in first class, many affected will be Torygraph readers. DfT are managing their expectations so that when reality hits, they're already expecting it.

There's usually a few of these stories floating about in the press and on TV everyday. If they cause outrage, the PM will publicly reverse the issue, saving the day.

"Cameron Orders Pubs to Open Late during Brazil World Cup 2014" was a classic one. The public generally fall for it.

 

[CheshireCrusty]

Apologies off topic as Euston isn't mentioned in the article, however, from my experience of travelling with VT since they reduced the number of First Class carriages on 9 car Pendolinos, I tend to find First Class to be very busy, even on off peak services.

I agree as a long term Virgin WC First Class Passenger, I do try and ensure I only book seats on a 11 car Pendolino - with the exception of north of Preston where it is difficult. But then I always book in advance and carefully choose my own seat.
Much better than old TPE where I booked a first class ticket Manchester to Edinburgh (2x185) and then only after I paid was I given any hint all the first class seats were already fully booked. On that Sunday journey some First Class passengers were standing throughout the 4 hour journey.

I seem to recall that Virgin WC used to allow full fare standard class to use the first class coaches at weekends without paying the 1st Class Upgrade fee. Don't know whether they still do!

 

[yorkie]

In the article it said:

"Trains typically had three first-class carriages and five standard-class carriages."

and therein lies the problem. The balance is wrong. Perhaps 1.5 first class and 6.5 second class would be more acceptable to all.

Do you believe that article? Which trains, arriving into the terminals mentioned, have 8 carriages consisting of 3 first class and 5 standard class?

Thursday at Doncaster station I actually counted 72 first class passengers on the 11-15 Kings Cross to Edinburgh which was occupying 3 coaches as against the rest of the train been well filled to capacity.
I also wonder how many actually paid the full fare and how many was travelling on cheap deals.
I too think its time to seriously look at does it need 3 first class coaches and the additional expenses of staff as well running about after the passengers. A better idea would be one first class coach and let them pay the proper price for the service they want and not discount the prices to fill the empty seats, so if you want to travel first class you pay the proper charges for the service you want.

Its a bit like the standard class is subsidising the first class a bit like the airlines was at one time when the business and first class passengers stopped travelling and the airlines had to rely on the ordinary passengers to keep flying.

Lets see what happens next.

Your post is muddled; you say 1st class is cheap and being subsidised, yet you also say very few people are taking up such a good offer. Surely it can't be that good/cheap then? Which is it?

There may be the odd train where the loadings are unbalanced, but on the East Coast route, 1st class is usually well used. If you reduced it to 1 coach, then at busy times there would be insufficient seats in 1st, and you would put revenue at risk because you would be putting people off travelling altogether. For example at peak times, people prepared to pay extra for good seat to Newcastle may find that option is no longer available so they end up standing until the Peterborough commuters have alighted.

I don't think any of the InterCity TOCs serving London have any issues with the ratio of 1st to standard.

On commuter TOCs, 1st class is a joke and should be abolished, but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the InterCity TOCs where you genuinely get a better quality of service, which is typically well used.

 

[tspaul26]

That would be a bizarre move! That route is the fastest one between Scotland's two biggest cities and also Scotrail's flagship route. Many businessmen use this route and travel 1st class. Many leisure travellers go first class too (the weekend upgrade is quite reasonable!). Scotrail have recently introduce 1st class advance tickets on all of their 1st class routes except the Glasgow to Edinburgh one. The tickets are VERY popular and sell out weeks in advance! This shows there is clearly high demand for Scotrail 1st class (at the right price). I'm guessing Scotrail believe the Edinburgh to Glasgow route doesn't need advance tickets to encourage 1st class use.
Also, I think removing 1st class would only actually add 3 extra seats to each 1st class compartment on a turbostar.

I seem to recall reading before the last franchise award that First Class fares accounted for 1.5% of journeys on ScotRail and 5% of revenue. I'm not entirely sure how these figures were calculated, but the Transport Scotland report in question dropped a very heavy hint that the removal of First Class accommodation was unlikely to be well received without a pretty good justification showing how the same could be made revenue neutral.

I would imagine that most TOCs are in a similar position.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Carlisle to Preston is 4hrs 20mins+

DalesRail is an excursion train, not a regular service. Though more could be done with it than is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read somewhere that Virgin were intending to do a 3 class service on West Coast and XC services.



The provision of 3 disabled toilets on the Pendolinos was seemingly a result of this.

It's certainly the reason Voyagers have three. It was going to be first, Standard and "Virgin Value" - with 3+2!

 

[BMIFlyer]

3 TransPennine Express 04:22 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport 08:47 - Long distance so should retain first class and most the overcrowding happens in the Manchester area.

4 TransPennine Express 16:00 Manchester Airport - Edinburgh Waverley 19:40 - Long distance so should retain first class and most the overcrowding happens in the Manchester area.

A large number of the trains that are overcrowded are long distance services that become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt on their way into a big city. For example with Stockport and Manchester there are 14 trains per hour and 8 of them are Long distance services and 6 of them have first class which would be unpopular to remove.

Regarding the TPE service it is primarily Preston and Wigan to/from Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly that is the issue. The sooner we stop calling at Wigan the better. Granted a few services now don't and feedback from the crew is that the environment on board is so much better - a lot more longer distance people manage to grab a seat on boarding instead of it being taken by GMPTE ticket holders who use the TPE service instead of Northern from/to Wallgate.

At least on the new trains first class will be fully enclosed into its own coach.

 

[Senex]

Regarding the TPE service it is primarily Preston and Wigan to/from Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly that is the issue. The sooner we stop calling at Wigan the better. Granted a few services now don't and feedback from the crew is that the environment on board is so much better - a lot more longer distance people manage to grab a seat on boarding instead of it being taken by GMPTE ticket holders who use the TPE service instead of Northern from/to Wallgate.

At least on the new trains first class will be fully enclosed into its own coach.

When will we learn in this country how to keep very-short-distance passengers off long-distance trains? Germany manages it very well, and has done so for years.

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding the TPE service it is primarily Preston and Wigan to/from Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly that is the issue. The sooner we stop calling at Wigan the better. Granted a few services now don't and feedback from the crew is that the environment on board is so much better - a lot more longer distance people manage to grab a seat on boarding instead of it being taken by GMPTE ticket holders who use the TPE service instead of Northern from/to Wallgate.

At least on the new trains first class will be fully enclosed into its own coach.

When will we learn in this country how to keep very-short-distance passengers off long-distance trains? Germany manages it very well, and has done so for years.

For many Watford Junction has been a stops to pick up/set down only station for Virgin Trains, maybe its time to introduce a similar thing to other stations.

 

[hwl]

When will we learn in this country how to keep very-short-distance passengers off long-distance trains?

And how are they going to fit all those passengers on the short distance trains are typically rammed?

 

[Darandio]

DalesRail is an excursion train, not a regular service. Though more could be done with it than is.

Since when was the 0515 Carlisle to Preston a DalesRail service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And how are they going to fit all those passengers on the short distance trains are typically rammed?

Stop running stupid little 2 car DMUs around the place, and run proper length regional trains, for one? 2 car DMUs have no place other than branch lines, they are an utter waste of line capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since when was the 0515 Carlisle to Preston a DalesRail service?

Ah, didn't think there was a through service via the Coast. Still, it is a regional service not intended for end to end use.