'End of the line for first class'

[Darandio]

Ah, didn't think there was a through service via the Coast. Still, it is a regional service not intended for end to end use.

Oh I agree, but my response was to a question being asked.

 

[swt class 450]

Good. Its about time we remove it. The sooner we remove First Class the better. There is absolutely no need for First Class.

The First Class accommodation on most trains is a joke. For example on the 375s / 377s / 387s etc it is 100% identical to Standard Class (except for a cheap small piece of cloth on the top of the seat and a sticker right in the middle of the window partially blocking your view). The only reason these trains have it is probably to rip off unaware passengers

Even on long distance trains where First Class does have a difference it should still be removed. Long distance trains generally have better more comfortable Standard Class seats anyway. And getting rid of First Class would provide more capacity and more seats. I think it is clear that removing First Class would benefit far more people than it would annoy.

I am sure the few people who use First Class can manage without it. I have never travelled in First Class in my entire life and have never had a problem with it. Standard Class really isn't that bad (even for long distances).

 

[221129]

Good. Its about time we remove it. The sooner we remove First Class the better. There is absolutely no need for First Class.

The First Class accommodation on most trains is a joke. For example on the 375s / 377s / 387s etc it is 100% identical to Standard Class (except for a cheap small piece of cloth on the top of the seat and a sticker right in the middle of the window partially blocking your view). The only reason these trains have it is probably to rip off unaware passengers

Even on long distance trains where First Class does have a difference it should still be removed. Long distance trains generally have better more comfortable Standard Class seats anyway. And getting rid of First Class would provide more capacity and more seats. I think it is clear that removing First Class would benefit far more people than it would annoy.

I am sure the few people who use First Class can manage without it. I have never travelled in First Class in my entire life and have never had a problem with it. Standard Class really isn't that bad (even for long distances).

So because YOU never use it, then nobody else should?

 

[nottsnurse]

For those complaining that a reduction in First Class capacity will mean overcrowding in such coaches, perhaps an increase in prices will counter it?

Those who can afford it can continue to have First Class.

 

[Polarbear]

I can see an argument for not having first class on local & suburban services that travel relatively short distances. Typically, for such services, I imagine there is relatively little demand for first class, which is often little better than standard in a lot of cases.

First class should definitely be kept on long distance services. Like some other posters on here, I occasionally like to travel 1st if I am going a long way by rail as it can be a more relaxing experience.

For me, the problem in the UK is where to draw the dividing line on what provision should be made. Often, long distance trains are used as commuter services (Cross Country being a particular case in point). Some people commute quite long distances & would most likely start to use other modes of transport (i.e. their cars) if no 1st class facility is provided.

Grayling's reasons for making this move though are almost wholly political, and have very little to do with the real world. In all honesty, how much extra capacity will be realised for standard class ticket holders by withdrawing the first class facility on say Southern or South Eastern? Each 4 car train only has a handful of seats designated as first class, and there is no way that re-designating these seats will "solve" any overcrowding issues. Without counting the exact number of seats, I suspect that eliminating 1st class from a 12 car Southern service as an example would yield around about 140 extra seats. Will that "solve" overcrowding - no!

Grayling's announcement also further calls into question the ability of TOC's to make free market decisions. We do seem to be moving ever closer to a quasi-nationalised franchising system, as increasingly, more and more of what the TOC's do is being regulated by government.

 

[DarloRich]

According to the Daily Telegraph it is the 'End of the line for first class, seen here on pressreader, taken from an article in March despite being in the paper today.


The bolded bits make no sense. Southeastern serves none of those locations.

it clearly means removing first class on suburban/commuter journeys where the difference in service is minimal. On long distance intercity services first class will remain, of that I am quite sure.

 

[ScotTrains]

Surely if the difference in service between 1st and standard is minimal it must be more profitable for the railways (provided people are using it). If people are still willing to pay extra for 1st class without the train company having to pay more money for better seats, complimentary refreshments, lounges etc then surely they will make a bigger profit. Long distance services where these things are included (at a cost to the train company) would therefore be less profitable than had they not provided them.
Commuters travel 1st mainly to get a seat.
On many commuter trains (eg class 387) 1st class is 2+2 seating, the same as standard. Therefore removing it would not add a single extra seat.
I think it is wrong for a train to be full in standard yet empty in 1st. If this happens regularly then clearly the price differential is too great and should be reduced. There will always be people wanting to upgrade at the right cost, even if it is for nothing other than a better chance of getting a seat.
First class travel, priced to match demand, can provide train companies with extra revenue/ profit. In theory this could be used to subsidise standard class.

 

[BestWestern]

The problem of course is that we are rapidly approaching capacity, and even with various future projects that will continue to be a problem for years to come. Removing First Class is a quick, easy win as far as generating extra capacity goes. We've already seen it to a degree on GWR, back in FGW days when First was shrunk to make more space for standard (wisely, in my opinion). The further steps of eventual complete removal are surely inevitable in the long term? What other attainable solutions are there? NR is skint, there is a desire to cut operating costs, which the removal of First Class catering and associated staff would be seen as a contribution towards, and as we've seen there would appear to be a healthy political appetite to score points with the 'common man'. In future decades I could see it either going completely or at least being reduced to basic 'suburban' levels across the board.

 

[CheshireCrusty]

I think the biggest problem on the horizon is the proposal to develop a national travel pass system.

On longer distance journeys (my employer's T&Cs define this as over 90 minutes - when 1st class is allowed) the important thing whichever class is used is to have a seat reservation. In that way expectations can be managed - so for example on a busy service a higher price can be paid by those booking late (I understand some TOC's will now take bookings up to 15 minutes prior to departure) to alert the passenger that this will be a busy train and if they wish they can see the savings made by moving to a later service.
This has worked well since first introduced by Virgin WC when they took over the franchise - travellers started thinking about train journeys in the same way as booking an air journey (e.g. I go on that service or that route I will have to pay £xxx but if I go at a different time or if possible an alternative route I will pay £xx). The TOC now thinks in terms of maximising revenue per seat kilometre and if that is best achieved by offering a premium class at a higher rate then the TOC determines what proportion of seats on each service should be at that premium service. It also allows the train operator to offer advance fares in excess of the "national" anytime or off peak ticket price if the train is already nearly fully booked (I am sure I am not alone in avoiding a particular service if the Advance fare shown is higher than the Anytime or Off Peak fare for the journey even though I could purchase that lower fare because I then know that I will be unable to confirm a seat and that there will be passengers standing).
This model does seem to work well on VWC at least and is popular with first class travellers!

Remember the howls of protest when Virgin appeared at risk of losing the franchise for a proposal that appeared to place emphasis on anytime and national off peak fares generating significantly increased revenues in future years.
All this shows up the conflict with the DfT's goal of micromanaging the product provided by franchise holders in terms of controlling the number of standard vs first class seats to be provided and also their stated aim of providing a national touch in / touch out travelcard system charging the "premium" national price book fares for the journey.

 

[47421]

Although it did not attract much attention at the time, AGA effectively decided to abolish first class wholesale with their successful bid for the franchise last year. IIRC The "whole new fleet" was announced as all standard class only other than the 10 or so units for the Norwich I-C service. This was a big change considering first class is currently available on the vast majority of GA services.

But I think they are now re-considering - does anyone know if they did include first class in the spec for the new Bombardier units in the end?

 

[Wivenswold]

The Spec for Class 720 Aventra units has not been finalised yet. There are rumours of a change of heart by GA but there have been many rumours since the new franchise was announced.

 

[Hellfire]

Good. Its about time we remove it. The sooner we remove First Class the better. There is absolutely no need for First Class.

The First Class accommodation on most trains is a joke. For example on the 375s / 377s / 387s etc it is 100% identical to Standard Class (except for a cheap small piece of cloth on the top of the seat and a sticker right in the middle of the window partially blocking your view). The only reason these trains have it is probably to rip off unaware passengers

Even on long distance trains where First Class does have a difference it should still be removed. Long distance trains generally have better more comfortable Standard Class seats anyway. And getting rid of First Class would provide more capacity and more seats. I think it is clear that removing First Class would benefit far more people than it would annoy.

I am sure the few people who use First Class can manage without it. I have never travelled in First Class in my entire life and have never had a problem with it. Standard Class really isn't that bad (even for long distances).

So because you don't use it no one else should either. I travel First on VTWC and there is a huge difference between First and Standard. Standard seats are too close together and too narrow for my taste. I'm happy to pay the extra for better leg room, a more comfortable environment and some pretty good catering. The trains on which I travel from the North West to London usually have a pretty good load in First proving there is a demand for it. Obviously Virgin benefit from the additional revenue because you can be sure if they didn't, it wouldn't be offered.

 

[sheff1]

The problem of course is that we are rapidly approaching capacity

Maybe in your area, but in many parts of the country overcrowded 2 and 3 carriage trains (some with First Class) are the norm. Doubling, or in some cases, trebling the length of a least some of these services would provide a seating capacity more in line with the number of people travelling without the need for any more train paths.

Going back to First Class, Sheffield to Manchester is an interesting case. For most of the day EMT run hourly 4 carriage trains without First Class yet TPE run 3 carriage trains with First Class, also hourly. As the overall distance the end to end service runs is further with EMT than TPE you might expect, from some of the arguments being made, that the provision of First Class would be the other way round.

 

[bb21]

Grayling's reasons for making this move though are almost wholly political, and have very little to do with the real world. In all honesty, how much extra capacity will be realised for standard class ticket holders by withdrawing the first class facility on say Southern or South Eastern? Each 4 car train only has a handful of seats designated as first class, and there is no way that re-designating these seats will "solve" any overcrowding issues. Without counting the exact number of seats, I suspect that eliminating 1st class from a 12 car Southern service as an example would yield around about 140 extra seats. Will that "solve" overcrowding - no!

140 extra seats on a 12-coach train is actually quite a significant boost, however the real issue is that if you are wanting to tackle overcrowding on the busiest trains, where are those displaced First Class passsengers now going to go? They may stay on the same train but now in Standard Class, and paying Standard Class fares, so you release very little additional capacity, as on most of these busiest trains at the times stated, First Class would be pretty full anyway, and you lose the difference between First Class and Standard Class fares. They may alternatively elect to avoid the cattle trucks altogether, in which case you lose the First Class fares altogether. Someone will have to pick up the tab.

Personally I feel removing First Class provisions on commuter flows would make things much easier to manage, so no bad thing for the commuter TOCs. We can simply spread the cost evenly onto Standard Class fares and make it revenue neutral, since apparently Standard Class passengers are the ones set to benefit.

I object to my tax money being used to "subsidise" the Standard Class commuters, quoting the words of someone upthread.

 

[mrcheek]

I have never travelled in First Class in my entire life .

Please keep it that way. I travel First Class to get away from plebs

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Without counting the exact number of seats, I suspect that eliminating 1st class from a 12 car Southern service as an example would yield around about 140 extra seats.

A 377/1 or 377/2 has 24 first class seats; a 377/4 has 20.

At most there would be 72 extra standard class seats on a 12 car train; not 140.

However, with a 12 car formed of four 377/3 units there are 96 first class seats - but there are not many such diagrams and part of the apparent capacity gain is mitigated by there being two more driving vehicles in the train as these have fewer seats overall than the trailers owing to the space occupied by the cabs.

 

[Bishopstone]

However, with a 12 car formed of four 377/3 units there are 96 first class seats

48, I think. The 3-car units only have first class behind one cab, unless this has changed recently.

 

[Mag_seven]

I am sure the few people who use First Class can manage without it. I have never travelled in First Class in my entire life and have never had a problem with it.

Since you never travel first class what gives you the right to speak for those who do?

 

[boxy321]

If I have to use standard on a Pendolino I'll be reverting to the car.

The 'back' of those trains is horrific, claustrophobic and depressing. The only time I've ever seen the shop was when 1st was at the wrong end and there wasn't time to walk along the platform.

I've lost count of how many people I've introduced to 1st. Everyone is amazed at how cheap it can be and what you get for your money (not counting long distance walk-up fares).

First is well used on the West Coast, less so in the evening. The current 3.5 coach provision would be inadequate if reduced.

 

[ivanhoe]

Please keep it that way. I travel First Class to get away from plebs

Of course the reverse also applies when you avoid first class to keep away from people like your goodself

 

[swt_passenger]

140 extra seats on a 12-coach train is actually quite a significant boost, however the real issue is that if you are wanting to tackle overcrowding on the busiest trains, where are those displaced First Class passsengers now going to go?

If looking at the typical 4 car Southern 377s, they either have 10 or 12 first class seats at each end by the cab. So 60 - 72 for 3 units in multiple; much less than about 140. I think something must have been double counted by the earlier poster.

But as you say, they are the same density seats as the rest of the train, and are often used already in the peaks, so the marginal change in overall capacity is much less.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

48, I think. The 3-car units only have first class behind one cab, unless this has changed recently.

Ah... is the Combined Volume wrong? I'll have a close look at a /3 next time I see one.

 

[GodAtum]

A large number of the trains that are overcrowded are long distance services that become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt on their way into a big city. For example with Stockport and Manchester there are 14 trains per hour and 8 of them are Long distance services and 6 of them have first class which would be unpopular to remove.

It's impossible for a TOC to decide where to abolish 1st anyway. if they say keep it on long distance services, for example Southern, what would that count as. For trains starting at Southampton, Bognor or Brighton long distance? Those trains still stop at East Croydon, so will confuse people, as some trains will have 1st and some not.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's impossible for a TOC to decide where to abolish 1st anyway. if they say keep it on long distance services, for example Southern, what would that count as. For trains starting at Southampton, Bognor or Brighton long distance? Those trains still stop at East Croydon, so will confuse people, as some trains will have 1st and some not.

But no-one would buy a First Class ticket from East Croydon to Victoria though.

Oh...

 

[GodAtum]

But no-one would buy a First Class ticket from East Croydon to Victoria though.

Oh...

:P I was referring to the point that long distance trains become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt.

 

[bavvo]

For those complaining that a reduction in First Class capacity will mean overcrowding in such coaches, perhaps an increase in prices will counter it?

Those who can afford it can continue to have First Class.

Of course we can deal with overcrowding in second class in the same way :roll:

 

[MylesHSG]

:P I was referring to the point that long distance trains become overcrowded when they call at suburban stations in a commuter belt.

I know you can't alight a northbound VTWC train at Watford Junction and you can't board one going south, but are there any other instances of this? Stevenage on VTEC? St. Alban's on the MML? (Do EMT even stop there?) Reading on GWR?

 

[swt_passenger]

I know you can't alight a northbound VTWC train at Watford Junction and you can't board one going south, but are there any other instances of this? Stevenage on VTEC? St. Alban's on the MML? (Do EMT even stop there?) Reading on GWR?

Stratford, Clapham Junction, there are dozens of places. Enforcement is of course completely random.

 

[Michael.Y]

Reading on GWR?

1915 SWA on a Friday is pickup only on a Friday (officially) and on occasion has been known to run through to Swindon non-stop catching out a few cheeky monkeys.

Offtopic slightly but on matchdays at Cardiff, some long-distance trains skip Newport when going east.

 

[6Gman]

If I have to use standard on a Pendolino I'll be reverting to the car.

The 'back' of those trains is horrific, claustrophobic and depressing. The only time I've ever seen the shop was when 1st was at the wrong end and there wasn't time to walk along the platform.

I've lost count of how many people I've introduced to 1st. Everyone is amazed at how cheap it can be and what you get for your money (not counting long distance walk-up fares).

Each entitled to an opinion, and Pendolinos have their faults, BUT "horrific"?

I use the Pendolinos a lot and they're ok. A better seat layout and deeper windows would be an improvement, but they do the job.

And since I can get to London Standard Class for free 1st will never seem "cheap" to me!