Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

1) Do you really think the RMT thought, "Lets disrupt a third rate music festival in a little unheard of town in West Yorkshire by calling a strike on the 1st of September"

No but I do think they thought of the Blackpool Illuminations switch on and by fortunate coincidence there was a music event in West Yorkshire on the same day. RMT rep John Tilley has said on past strike days the RMT specifically chose a date when there was a big event on. We now get the impression he was telling the truth but the RMT didn't want him to say that as they've lost public support as a result of him admitting that.

A question to Northernrail strikers. "If you are on strike to hurt the company, why are you wanting to help them out by covering uncovered shifts days later" Surly not covering shifts by working overtime would further your cause. Look up the word "Hypocrisy"

Just a thought - maybe they need to work the overtime to make up for the lack of earnings on strike days?

Has the RMT asked it's members how frequently they wish to strike?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

No but I do think they thought of the Blackpool Illuminations switch on and by fortunate coincidence there was a music event in West Yorkshire on the same day. RMT rep John Tilley has said on past strike days the RMT specifically chose a date when there was a big event on. We now get the impression he was telling the truth but the RMT didn't want him to say that as they've lost public support as a result of him admitting that.



Just a thought - maybe they need to work the overtime to make up for the lack of earnings on strike days?

I have told you why they chose those dates. The support is fragile and they are designed to spread the pain of losing two days pay over two pay periods. Saturday 2nd of September is the last day in this pay month. Monday's strike will come out of next months paid in five weeks time.

Northern need to bite the bullet, take a hit, and stop people on strike working overtime. Do that and the minions will flood back.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Has the RMT asked it's members how frequently they wish to strike?

Yes they have taken soundings, that is why they are spreading the pain over two pay periods like they did last time.

 

[bearhugger]

The quotes in this article are intersting (taken from https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2368323/train-strikes-hit-yorkshire-coast/)

Train Strikes Hit Yorkshire Coast
Home News Local News Article
northern rail train
6:00am 1st September 2017
(Updated 10:14am 1st September 2017)
Train services on the Yorkshire Coast operated by Northern are being disrupted today and on Monday due to a strike.
Workers who are members of the RMT union are walking out on the two days as part of a dispute with the company, over their refusal to guarantee the continued role of guards on their trains.
The industrial action will mean a much reduced service between Scarborough, Filey, Bridlington and Hull, and a revised timetable on the route between Whitby and Middlesbrough.
You can find the timetables for these routes detailing the changes on Northern's website...
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action
Services from Scarborough towards York, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool are operated by Transpennine Express and will be not be affected.
The RMT union's general secretary Mick Cash said:
“The public, who support RMT’s campaign for a guarantee of a guard on their trains, will be appalled that Arriva Rail North have failed yet again to offer any kind of progress whatsoever in the talks and have instead opted to try and bulldoze through their plans regardless. It is that flagrant disregard for the safety issues at the heart of the dispute which leaves us with no option but to press on with the campaign of strike action."
Northern's Regional Director Sharon Keith said:
“It is disappointing that RMT has timed these two days of strike action to coincide with people returning to school, college and work after the summer holidays. The action aims to cause disruption to people’s lives, businesses and the economy.
During recent talks we underlined that we are prepared to guarantee jobs and current pay for all our conductors for the next eight years. Our offers to discuss every detail on the future responsibilities and training for on-board colleagues have been rejected by RMT. We urge them to get back round the table with us quickly and talk seriously about our modernisation, not take unnecessary strike action.”
See an interview with Sharon Keith below...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Perhaps ARN will respond with #keeptheguardonthetrainbutdontlethimopenthedoors

Wouldn't fit with their plans....

...Northern need to bite the bullet, take a hit, and stop people on strike working overtime. Do that and the minions will flood back.

Like most TOCs, they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Much as they wouldn't want to admit it, they need staff doing overtime to keep the trains running. Having staff do overtime is cheaper than employing more staff or cancelling the trains they couldn't cover.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Northern need to bite the bullet, take a hit, and stop people on strike working overtime. Do that and the minions will flood back.

Because that idea worked wonders for GTR-Southern... Dispute still not resolved in spite of more direct involvement by the DfT.

 

[IanXC]

For the avoidance of doubt, this thread is for discussion of the specific case of DOO proposals at Northern. Issues such as negotiations, industrial action, strike timetables etc.

Any discussion of general pros and cons of DOO is off topic.

 

[yorksrob]

And just to make things even better, the 8:03 Wakefield Westgate to Leeds has been cancelled due to a train failure in London.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern cancelled the 0635 Chester to Altrincham 'due to a planning error' which meant no-one from the Northwich or Knutsford areas could get to Manchester for a 9am start this morning.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Perversely Northern are actually running a better strike day stopping service between Sheffield and Barnsley than the one advertised. Their online timetable says it's only every two hours today but in reality the stopper's running every hour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the UK we ban it on AB branch lines[1]
[1] I do recognise the safety reasoning behind this - it's just interesting comparing approaches.

I don't really understand the regulations, but if there is a strict ban on DOO on AB lines, there won't be any DOO working through Stockport until the "famous five" AB boxes are replaced.
I'm sure we could add many other strategic lines to the list: Standedge and Hope Valley for instance, all routes except Merseyrail through Chester, CLC etc.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't really understand the regulations, but if there is a strict ban on DOO on AB lines, there won't be any DOO working through Stockport until the "famous five" AB boxes are replaced.
I'm sure we could add many other strategic lines to the list: Standedge and Hope Valley for instance, all routes except Merseyrail through Chester, CLC etc.

Arriva will have a plan to make 50% of mileage DCO. In theory, that could include a guard boarding a service part way through to cover the AB lines, or a guard acting as a CSA for part of the assistance and then taking over door duties from the driver after a certain point.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Northern cancelled the 0635 Chester to Altrincham 'due to a planning error' which meant no-one from the Northwich or Knutsford areas could get to Manchester for a 9am start this morning.

In contrast, they've put 4 coaches on the Hazel Grove shuttle! And one of the units this morning was a 156!

 

[westv]

Perversely Northern are actually running a better strike day stopping service between Sheffield and Barnsley than the one advertised. Their online timetable says it's only every two hours today but in reality the stopper's running every hour.

In contrast, don't think there were any Northern services from Hull this morning even though I don't think it would have any DOO services anyway (or am I wrong)? :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

In contrast, they've put 4 coaches on the Hazel Grove shuttle! And one of the units this morning was a 156!

With relatively few services best to run them quite long so nobody is left behind.

 

[Jamesrob637]

With relatively few services best to run them quite long so nobody is left behind.

True, that'll be one of the busier services. Thankfully, for stations to and including Stockport, there's a 17:38 in worst case scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will also be an element of "keep it simple" - put the longest sensible formation out and leave it out there all day.

 

[northwichcat]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

 

[craigybagel]

I don't really understand the regulations, but if there is a strict ban on DOO on AB lines, there won't be any DOO working through Stockport until the "famous five" AB boxes are replaced.
I'm sure we could add many other strategic lines to the list: Standedge and Hope Valley for instance, all routes except Merseyrail through Chester, CLC etc.

At the risk of getting away from specifically Northern issues and towards the general DOO chat, there doesn't seem to be a strict ban - until recently there was a section of AB near Banbury for example where DOO was permitted. I believe it's more of a guideline. There are strict rules on communication requirements like radios (CSR, as used in the south and on Merseyrailmeets them but the old NRN system that was used across most of the north didn't) but almost everything has GSM-R now which meets those requirements.

Ban or not, I fear that a workaround could probably be found for the Stockport 5 if enough pressure was put on the right people (and let's face it, we all know what the powers that be want to happen) given that the boxes are so close together no train under their control is ever out of sight of at least one of the 5 boxes.

 

[daikilo]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

Or just working ...

 

[Eccles1983]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

The laws on pickets will dictate how many people are actually allowed on them before it becomes an illegal picket.

So nice try at the snide remarks.

 

[313103]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

And i am guessing you don't know the law on Industrial Action and more specifically the law on how many pickets are allowed to be assembled.

 

[northwichcat]

And i am guessing you don't know the law on Industrial Action and more specifically the law on how many pickets are allowed to assembled.

It specifies '6 outside a workplace' so Piccadilly station mustn't be a workplace in the RMT's view.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With relatively few services best to run them quite long so nobody is left behind.

Even if platform lengths mean half the formation is locked out anyway, as seen on one of the two Huddersfield to Leeds diagrams today!

Funnily enough, today's diagrams were 1x158 and 2x158 respectively, with the standard hourly service interval maintained during the daytime. With regard to the Sheffield to Barnsley situation mentioned upthread, was it not that the two stoppers (Leeds and Huddersfield respectively) would each run bi-hourly, meaning an hourly stopper as far as Barnsley?

 

[Tracked]

Probably a good job there was a reduced service today, there'd been a bridge strike just north of Chesterfield around 15:30 - I was on the last service that wasn't sent past Barrow Hill (in fact, we did stop just after Tapton Junction briefly, wonder if that was where the bridge was). Looks like it got back to normal quickly though, but my XC was delayed waiting for a couple of other trains to go South. 20+ minutes late out of Sheffield, about 8 late into Doncaster.

Quite a lot of doubled up 158's running, but a few 142's still out round Sheffield whilst 150's were parked up in the through lines

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

Absolutely. Today they hurt Northernrail by striking, over the next few weeks they'll be helping them out by working rest days,

Oh the hypocrisy creeps in everywhere these days.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

I thought that the government's (long established) Code of Practice on picketing envisages a maximum of six pickets at an entrance to a place of employment. There are other provisions relating to union representatives 'supervising' the picketing.

 

[scrapy]

It is at the discretion of the local police. BTP wont mind a few extra provided everythings peaceful. I know several officers are supportive of the guards. They fear their workload will increase if trains are de-staffed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Absolutely. Today they hurt Northernrail by striking, over the next few weeks they'll be helping them out by working rest days,

Oh the hypocrisy creeps in everywhere these days.

Unless a complete ban on overtime is in place I'm not sure why you would expect anything else to happen. Northern, like just about every other TOC, is staffed at such a level that rest-day working is an essential part of maintaining normal levels of service. Would you prefer more staff to be employed to avoid this necessity altogether or are you happy with the status quo?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

With regard to the Sheffield to Barnsley situation mentioned upthread, was it not that the two stoppers (Leeds and Huddersfield respectively) would each run bi-hourly, meaning an hourly stopper as far as Barnsley?

Not quite, no. The timetables advertised on Northern's website showed a stopper every two hours between Sheffield and Barnsley as detailed below but actually ran as an hourly shuttle.
The Penistone line stopper ran only between Barnsley and Huddersfield

https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...017-09-04/Sheffield---Barnsley---Leeds-V2.pdf

As it turned out, with double units on both stoppers and fast trains, my Elsecar to Leeds commute was actually far more pleasant than on non-strike days!