Paperless rail tickets across UK by 2019 - Chris Grayling

[sheff1]

Getting rid of TOD should be the next step, it will free station TVM's and Booking Office Windows up for the bulk of people who want to have orange tickets bought on the day as their infrequent travelers.

At Sheffield, the queues at the collection-only machines are almost invariably longer than the queues at the TVMs which are signed "Buy Here". At the times I am there, the latter often have no queue at all. So there is no need to "free up" any TVMs for on the day purchase.

Obviously the situation will be different at some other stations, but the solution there is to provide the number of TVMs needed to satisfy the demand, not reduce the options available.

 

[radamfi]

At Sheffield, the queues at the collection-only machines are almost invariably longer than the queues at the TVMs which are signed "Buy Here". At the times I am there, the latter often have no queue at all. So there is no need to "free up" any TVMs for on the day purchase.

Obviously the situation will be different at some other stations, but the solution there is to provide the number of TVMs needed to satisfy the demand, not reduce the options available.

You've just described why we need to get rid of TOD and allow people to travel without having to pick up the ticket. Those collection machines could be redeployed.

 

[sheff1]

You've just described why we need to get rid of TOD and allow people to travel without having to pick up the ticket. Those collection machines could be redeployed.

??
Of course people should have the option of travelling without picking up a ticket, but there is no need to remove a TOD option for those who prefer that. As already pointed out, a significant minority of people do not have the means or wish to use an e-ticket.

If the take up of e-ticketing was such that less collection-only machines were required, I assume that would be across the country, so where would the now not required collection-only machines be redeployed to ?

 

[Llanigraham]

I’m with the Dutch. Add a quid to prices to purchase or collect at the station, and people will move to print at home and mobile. Two quid for the ticket office to stop people queueing there to purchase simple stuff available from the TVM.

Great idea.......NOT!!

I'm away on holiday in the caravan and I suddenly decide to go to the nearest town by train.
I do not have a smart phone.
I do not have my computer with me, only my Kindle Fire.
I do not have email access.
I do not have a printer.

Therefore by your anti-passenger system I am not encourage to catch the train, but use my car instead.

And comparing the UK to Holland is frankly pointless! They are much smaller than us, have much less mountainous scenery, and much better mobile phone coverage because of all those things.

 

[AlterEgo]

Great idea.......NOT!!

I'm away on holiday in the caravan and I suddenly decide to go to the nearest town by train.
I do not have a smart phone.
I do not have my computer with me, only my Kindle Fire.
I do not have email access.
I do not have a printer.

Therefore by your anti-passenger system I am not encourage to catch the train, but use my car instead.

And comparing the UK to Holland is frankly pointless! They are much smaller than us, have much less mountainous scenery, and much better mobile phone coverage because of all those things.

It should be okay for you though, as I am sure exclamation marks will become an accepted form of payment under the New Regime. Don't spend them all at once.

In all seriousness, it would be sensible to look at whether the railway ought to be more concerned about older people who don't have an email address or a smartphone (and who are, possibly, on a caravan holiday, considering an ad-hoc rail journey costing a fiver), or its core market, who are digitally enabled.

The paper ticket is not going to be around forever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is in the end going to be cheaper and more effective to provide cheap or free IT equipment, connectivity and training to those without it. Those who don’t take that will effectively be voluntarily shutting themselves off from society.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Great idea.......NOT!!

I'm away on holiday in the caravan and I suddenly decide to go to the nearest town by train.
I do not have a smart phone.
I do not have my computer with me, only my Kindle Fire.
I do not have email access.
I do not have a printer.

Therefore by your anti-passenger system I am not encourage to catch the train, but to use my car instead.

I remember those far-off days when mobile phones were solely used to make and receive telephone calls and the even earlier days when you entered a telephone box with your trusty pennies and all you needed to know was how to use button "A" and button "B".

Thank God I am 72 years old and my good lady wife is 75 years old, both currently holders of the three-year Senior Citizen Railcard, so hopefully both of us will be ensconced in nursing homes by the time this silly idea comes to fruition, when neither of us will use a train service ever again.

 

[radamfi]

??
Of course people should have the option of travelling without picking up a ticket, but there is no need to remove a TOD option for those who prefer that. As already pointed out, a significant minority of people do not have the means or wish to use an e-ticket.

If the take up of e-ticketing was such that less collection-only machines were required, I assume that would be across the country, so where would the now not required collection-only machines be redeployed to ?

The main reason why most of those people you observed were using TOD was because there is no other option. The TOD machines could be converted to normal ticket machines.

 

[radamfi]

And comparing the UK to Holland is frankly pointless! They are much smaller than us, have much less mountainous scenery, and much better mobile phone coverage because of all those things.

If you don't like the Netherlands as a comparison then how about Germany? They used to have TOD but got rid of it. There must be very few people who buy online who don't have either a phone or a printer.

 

[yorksrob]

It should be okay for you though, as I am sure exclamation marks will become an accepted form of payment under the New Regime. Don't spend them all at once.

In all seriousness, it would be sensible to look at whether the railway ought to be more concerned about older people who don't have an email address or a smartphone (and who are, possibly, on a caravan holiday, considering an ad-hoc rail journey costing a fiver), or its core market, who are digitally enabled.

The paper ticket is not going to be around forever.

On the contrary, the railway is a public service which should be designed to serve the Nation in it's diversity. Picking and choosing what customers one wishes to serve should be the preserve of the commercial sector bandits.

 

[Llanigraham]

In all seriousness, it would be sensible to look at whether the railway ought to be more concerned about older people who don't have an email address or a smartphone (and who are, possibly, on a caravan holiday, considering an ad-hoc rail journey costing a fiver), or its core market, who are digitally enabled.

The paper ticket is not going to be around forever.

Why mention older people? I can think of plenty of younger people who holiday in situations that have no web access on any instrument. The linked proposal would mean that either they could not travel, or it would cost them more. That is NOT public transport which is what the railway is.

 

[Llanigraham]

It is in the end going to be cheaper and more effective to provide cheap or free IT equipment, connectivity and training to those without it. Those who don’t take that will effectively be voluntarily shutting themselves off from society.

And who pays?
Many parts of this country are not "voluntarily shutting themselves off"
It suggests that as usual you are forgetting there is a world outside the urban areas.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why mention older people? I can think of plenty of younger people who holiday in situations that have no web access on any instrument. The linked proposal would mean that either they could not travel, or it would cost them more. That is NOT public transport which is what the railway is.

Yes it is public transport - it is standard practice in much of the world, and in many countries with a better rail system than ours.

It's a little trite to complain of having to pay, say, a single pound (or 50p?) more, when the railway already engages in massive price discrimination based on age, disability status, occupation, etc.

I can think of literally nobody my age (31) or younger who would be in a remote place with no phone, no internet, and no email access. The internet is a fundamental good; it is a massive enabler, socially and financially. It should be promoted at all costs and those who voluntarily go without internet access are cutting themselves off from the vast good that it brings. I expect there were people who moaned about telephones as well.

Also not to be forgotten is the fact that e-ticketing does not have to revolve around a person having internet access and there are many solutions which don't.

 

[sheff1]

The main reason why most of those people you observed were using TOD was because there is no other option. The TOD machines could be converted to normal ticket machines.

I thought the collection-only machines were just that and could not be converted to ticket selling machines. If they can, then fair enough.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes it is public transport - it is standard practice in much of the world, and in many countries with a better rail system than ours.

Whoopee! But we are in the UK so your comparison is wasted.

It's a little trite to complain of having to pay, say, a single pound (or 50p?) more, when the railway already engages in massive price discrimination based on age, disability status, occupation, etc.

So you are happy to charge people extra just because they suddenly decide they want to catch a train.....that says a lot.
And the discount arrangements are of no account here.

I can think of literally nobody my age (31) or younger who would be in a remote place with no phone, no internet, and no email access. The internet is a fundamental good; it is a massive enabler, socially and financially. It should be promoted at all costs and those who voluntarily go without internet access are cutting themselves off from the vast good that it brings. I expect there were people who moaned about telephones as well.

Then you know different people to me!
I have not argued that the internet is not a good thing and yes it should be promoted but I can assure you that there are still plenty of places in the UK that do not have even 2G, so is only available with a land line, and that is a bit difficult if you are in a tent or camper van.

Also not to be forgotten is the fact that e-ticketing does not have to revolve around a person having internet access and there are many solutions which don't.

Still need the 'net to get it!

 

[kieron]

I can understand some of the fears expressed on this thread, but paperless tickets don't have anything like the market share they'd need for a price difference for ordinary single and return tickets to be politically acceptable, except for in London (where they've been promoted heavily for a long time now).

Meanwhile, the growth which is occurring in e-ticket and m-ticket use has benefits both for those who use them (who can buy tickets at their convenience) and for those who don't (who may still end up being unable to buy a ticket before reaching the barriers at their destination, but at least won't have to queue behind people from the first group when they get there).

 

[jon0844]

65+? You mean all those retired people who spent their working lives developing the digital technology that they suddenly don't understand?

Haha, good one.

Of course the reality is that many old people are good with technology and many aren't. Just as someone explained that some young people don't have a clue (everyone has to have their first time, after all).

The key is to making the railway inclusive and accessible because on any given day you don't know who is who - nor should anyone have to.

Paper tickets are unlikely to disappear fully, whatever anyone says, but if they are then I would assume there would be a system to cope. Assuming you could load tickets onto a smartcard, a simple way would be to say you needed a smartcard to store your ticket. Either tap the one you have, or buy one at a machine/window for the first use and retain for future use.

Yes that would make someone pay more for a one off journey, but I think people could accept that. Imagine the cost savings on managing and transporting ticket stock, loading machines, dealing with jams and so on. Initially you have an issue with managing loads of smartcards, but eventually most people will have one in their wallet/purse like any credit card, loyalty card, membership card etc.

Getting rid of paper tickets does not need to force everyone to use a mobile phone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whoopee! But we are in the UK so your comparison is wasted.

Okay, how about Oyster then? Widely accepted that contactless and Oyster is *massively* cheaper than cash single fares in London. You can’t even use money on buses any more. Everything works fine and the world didn’t collapse.

So you are happy to charge people extra just because they suddenly decide they want to catch a train.....that says a lot.
And the discount arrangements are of no account here.

Wait, the Railway already does this, by having Advance vs walk up fares, so again, complaining about a very small surcharge to fulfil your ticket on paper is looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

The discount arrangements and the pricing structure of rail tickets are very important, because your point is that price discrimination via fulfilment method is “not public transport”. It is, and I have outlined how the railway already does this (and buses, and the Tube, etc etc). The railway already engages in small surcharges for certain fulfilment methods online. We accept that because “well it is costing them more, that seems fair”. And that’s why paper tickets should, in my opinion, also be considered for a surcharge. Fulfilment via ticket office is by a huge margin the most expensive way to issue a ticket.

I can assure you that there are still plenty of places in the UK that do not have even 2G, so is only available with a land line, and that is a bit difficult if you are in a tent or camper van.

I’m not claiming there isn’t. Though the railway is not going to be overly concerned about holding back technological innovation just because of people who are in tents or a camper van. 2G - sure - see below...

Still need the 'net to get it!

Wrong. You could, for example, buy an e-ticket or Smart ticket at your local shop, and not need any method of fulfilment other than the reference. This is how Megabus (and Megatrain) works.

You could even pay by contactless card without the need for a Smart ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

Okay, how about Oyster then? Widely accepted that contactless and Oyster is *massively* cheaper than cash single fares in London. You can’t even use money on buses any more. Everything works fine and the world didn’t collapse.

Now explain to me how that will work on the Cambrian Coast line in the middle of August?
Stop thinking that the whole world revolves around blasted London!

Wait, the Railway already does this, by having Advance vs walk up fares, so again, complaining about a very small surcharge to fulfil your ticket on paper is looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

The discount arrangements and the pricing structure of rail tickets are very important, because your point is that price discrimination via fulfilment method is “not public transport”. It is, and I have outlined how the railway already does this (and buses, and the Tube, etc etc). The railway already engages in small surcharges for certain fulfilment methods online. We accept that because “well it is costing them more, that seems fair”. And that’s why paper tickets should, in my opinion, also be considered for a surcharge. Fulfilment via ticket office is by a huge margin the most expensive way to issue a ticket.

But by your scheme there will be even further disincentive toi travel by train!
And yet I can buy a "walk on" return ticket to London from my local station for less than £70.

I’m not claiming there isn’t. Though the railway is not going to be overly concerned about holding back technological innovation just because of people who are in tents or a camper van. 2G - sure - see below...

Wrong. You could, for example, buy an e-ticket or Smart ticket at your local shop, and not need any method of fulfilment other than the reference. This is how Megabus (and Megatrain) works.

You could even pay by contactless card without the need for a Smart ticket.

Not around here, you can't!
See my comment above.

 

[LesS]

May I respectfully suggest that everybody calm down. An end to paper tickets is not the end of the world.

Over 12 months ago Sydney Trains stopped issuing paper tickets. You now need either a smartcard "Opal Card" or purchase a single use smartcard from a TVM at the station. You cannot buy an Opal card at any station except the 2 Airport stations. There are no ticket offices or staff at any station. The TVM machines accept only credit cards, no cash. Like "Oyster" the cards also work on buses, trams and ferries with appropriate transfer conditions.

All Sydney Trains services do not have reserved seats. The distances from Sydney range up to nearly 200 miles. Purchase of single use tickets are at higher fares than using an Opal Card. Seniors, Pensioners and others entitled to concessions must apply for an appropriate Opal card otherwise they pay the ordinary fares. Opal cards can be purchased either online or from third party sellers; usually convenience stores and newsagents. Unless you have a registered card with automatic top-up, cash top-ups can be made at these sites.

For the record, Trip time limits are 5 hours and transfer times are 60 minutes. It can be very easy to over run the 5 hour limit if travelling long distances.

The bus networks are franchised to private operators and the buses are fitted with card readers.

Presently the use of "contactless" with credit cards is being trialled. This is restricted to the Manly Ferry service until any problems are worked out. I can see this being extended fairly quickly to credit cards loaded onto smartphones.

There seems to be little complaint from passengers. If there was, the media would be all over it and they are silent.

My niece recently lost her Opal card on her way home from work. It fell onto the track at an underground station in the city. During her journey she used her smartphone to cancel the card and order a replacement. The cash balance on the old card was automatically transferred to the new.

A bonus to passengers is that after 8 full fare trips in a week (M-Sun) subsequent fares are at half rates.

My smartphone is not very smart. I cannot even login to the Google sites.

 

[AlterEgo]

Now explain to me how that will work on the Cambrian Coast line in the middle of August?
Stop thinking that the whole world revolves around blasted London!

I wasn’t suggesting Oyster for the Cambrian Coast; merely giving a UK-based example as you were unhappy at a European one.

However, we should be careful with analogies, because lines like the Cambrian Coast don’t exist much across Europe - wonderful as the line is, we can be sure that in a number of European countries that line would have closed a long time ago.

I don’t understand why you are continually irate on this forum; all people have done is explain their point of view calmly, yet you come back with exclamation marks on everything, saying I think the world revolves around London (with absolutely no basis in fact I should add - I’ve covered nearly the whole network, including the Cambrian in summer, so I’m not blind to the idiosyncrasies of the area). I also enjoy watching you slap down posters who make poorly considered comments on railway operations or signalling, yet you are happy to post far outside your area of expertise in the company of people who know a fair thing or two about ticketing, and then try to belittle or criticise them too.

But by your scheme there will be even further disincentive toi travel by train!
And yet I can buy a "walk on" return ticket to London from my local station for less than £70.

So it’s not all bad living in Wales then, if you can get to London and back for £70 (obviously though that’s not the centre of the earth, so one wonders why you chose it as an example ).

I don’t think in reality that a 50p/£1 surcharge on a fulfilment method is in practice a disincentive. It certainly appears to have had no effect on passenger usage figures in its current form (pay for post, ToD, etc), but a lot of effect on customer behaviour and shifting to cheaper fulfilment methods.

Not around here, you can't!
See my comment above.

You have no corner shops?

 

[AlterEgo]

May I respectfully suggest that everybody calm down. An end to paper tickets is not the end of the world.

Over 12 months ago Sydney Trains stopped issuing paper tickets. You now need either a smartcard "Opal Card" or purchase a single use smartcard from a TVM at the station. You cannot buy an Opal card at any station except the 2 Airport stations. There are no ticket offices or staff at any station. The TVM machines accept only credit cards, no cash. Like "Oyster" the cards also work on buses, trams and ferries with appropriate transfer conditions.

All Sydney Trains services do not have reserved seats. The distances from Sydney range up to nearly 200 miles. Purchase of single use tickets are at higher fares than using an Opal Card. Seniors, Pensioners and others entitled to concessions must apply for an appropriate Opal card otherwise they pay the ordinary fares. Opal cards can be purchased either online or from third party sellers; usually convenience stores and newsagents. Unless you have a registered card with automatic top-up, cash top-ups can be made at these sites.

For the record, Trip time limits are 5 hours and transfer times are 60 minutes. It can be very easy to over run the 5 hour limit if travelling long distances.

The bus networks are franchised to private operators and the buses are fitted with card readers.

Presently the use of "contactless" with credit cards is being trialled. This is restricted to the Manly Ferry service until any problems are worked out. I can see this being extended fairly quickly to credit cards loaded onto smartphones.

There seems to be little complaint from passengers. If there was, the media would be all over it and they are silent.

My niece recently lost her Opal card on her way home from work. It fell onto the track at an underground station in the city. During her journey she used her smartphone to cancel the card and order a replacement. The cash balance on the old card was automatically transferred to the new.

A bonus to passengers is that after 8 full fare trips in a week (M-Sun) subsequent fares are at half rates.

My smartphone is not very smart. I cannot even login to the Google sites.

Les, it doesn’t matter what you post here, you will always get the same objections. We can look at case study after case study that all show that a move to better ticketing fulfilment affects only customer behaviour and not the social benefit the railway brings, but it will not matter in the slightest to those who oppose it ideologically.

 

[ashworth]

I can think of literally nobody my age (31) or younger who would be in a remote place with no phone, no internet, and no email access. The internet is a fundamental good; it is a massive enabler, socially and financially. It should be promoted at all costs and those who voluntarily go without internet access are cutting themselves off from the vast good that it brings. I expect there were people who moaned about telephones as well.

There are still many areas of the country in rural parts where there is no mobile reception even for making phone calls, so the internet is certainly not available. I’m also not talking about really remote valleys in the Scottish Highlands.

This time last year I was on holiday on the Northumberland Coast just north of Alnmouth and the phone reception along the whole coast right up to Berwick Upon Tweed was very patchy. It wasn’t too bad a few miles inland close to the A1 but along the actual coast even in the villages there was no signal whatsoever. It seemed to be a very large area without any reliable signal. This isn’t an isolated case but did seem unusual over such a wide area. There are many villages throughout the country ,even in the affluent south, where mobile reception is not available.

Those who live in large urban areas, who spend so much time on their smartphones, perhaps do not realise that for some people who live in rural areas, a smartphone is of little use. Even where I live in Nottinghamshire, there are villages, where I cannot even make a phone call on my iPhone.

 

[Llanigraham]

Quite, Ashworth, but it seems some people are unable to accept that this situation exists.

 

[Gareth Marston]

On the contrary, the railway is a public service which should be designed to serve the Nation in it's diversity. Picking and choosing what customers one wishes to serve should be the preserve of the commercial sector bandits.

The tech fundamentalist just don't get the concept of inclusiveness and fairness.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Quite, Ashworth, but it seems some people are unable to accept that this situation exists.

Article on BBC Wales the other night re mobile signal coverage had a interview with an ICT home worker in Monmouthshire he could see the Severn Bridges and Bristol from his garden but still had no signal....

 

[Via Bank]

I would oppose the removal of paper ticketing entirely, and would not support removing TOD until its use dropped to levels where it was no longer economical.

But I struggle to see the problem with offering a small discount of, say, 50p, to people who provide their own paper and ink to print a ticket which they’ve already bought online, or take the environmentally friendly option and download the ticket onto their phone (when, again, they would already have an internet connection because that’s how they bought the ticket.)

I find it hard to argue this would discriminate against older people when the railway already charges extra to have tickets sent by recorded delivery, and already offers significant discounts to older people as long as they pony up £30 for a Railcard first. And the price of tickets already increases every year anyway (often by significantly more than 50p.)

 

[bspahh]

Article on BBC Wales the other night re mobile signal coverage had a interview with an ICT home worker in Monmouthshire he could see the Severn Bridges and Bristol from his garden but still had no signal....

In November 2016, the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/busines...twork-fast-cheap-wi-fi-trains-internet-access reported:

A DfT spokesman said: “We are investing record amounts in our railways to improve journeys and expect that 90% of all trains will have access to Wi-Fi by the end of 2018, with virtually 100% by 2020.”

Having a train with a Wi-Fi router doesn't mean that it will have reception. However, more and more stations will have free Wi-Fi access as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

The tech fundamentalist just don't get the concept of inclusiveness and fairness.

What do you think is not inclusive and fair about charging 50p for getting a paper ticket, as opposed to the vastly more egregious price discrimination elsewhere in all forms of public transport, the railway included?

 

[AlterEgo]

Quite, Ashworth, but it seems some people are unable to accept that this situation exists.

Can you think of anyone in this thread that doesn’t accept that? Bearing in mind my previous detailed replies of course.