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SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

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BestWestern

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GSMR, TPWS, AWS or a DSD does not prevent people from panicking and doing something silly like letting themselves off of the train. Even if an emergency call is initiated, without further dialogue it won't turn off the 750 volts that those panicking escapees are likely to land on when they jump out of the train. It doesn't provide the signaller with any information whatsoever about what has happened, who is at risk or from what, or what is needed to deal with the incident. The signaller might be able to make a PA announcement on board, but nobody can answer him. The knowledge that it's all gone wrong and you're completely on your own has every likelihood of sending passengers straight for the emergency egress handles. In any sort of emergency scenario, a key consideration is having somebody competent to manage the scene. A Driver is sat in the most vulnerable position on the whole train. Having a Guard is not a luxury, it's plain common sense.
 
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HarleyDavidson

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Christ, I think this has gone a little far. I've read through this as someone who doesn't work on the railway (although am gladly considering the idea), with a heavy heart. There are clearly a few of you who have very strong opinions either way, but I feel are somewhat talking at cross purposes. To fully disclose: I support the idea of a 2nd (safety critical) on board member of staff, and I can certainly see why existing guards are concerned with how things are shaping up - as pointed out earlier, making their role non-safety-critical does indeed open up the opportunity later on to do away with it altogether. Thus, of course i suspect there is some long term job security concern. But I do not for one second think this is the primary concern of guards right now. They do a very important job, which in actual fact does not pay all that well, all things considered, unless they are willing to work extreme hours (and really, who does that, unless they really do care about what they do? It's possible to survive on less).

i would respectfully ask all involved in this debate to have a brief read over their preceding posts in this thread and consider whether the attitudes they've displayed to one another would reflect how they would react to each other over a pint or two with like-minded individuals.

Err, If you lit the proverbial touch paper on an emotive subject wouldn't you expect an explosive response?
 

pompeyfan

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GSMR, TPWS, AWS or a DSD does not prevent people from panicking and doing something silly like letting themselves off of the train. Even if an emergency call is initiated, without further dialogue it won't turn off the 750 volts that those panicking escapees are likely to land on when they jump out of the train. It doesn't provide the signaller with any information whatsoever about what has happened, who is at risk or from what, or what is needed to deal with the incident. The signaller might be able to make a PA announcement on board, but nobody can answer him. The knowledge that it's all gone wrong and you're completely on your own has every likelihood of sending passengers straight for the emergency egress handles. In any sort of emergency scenario, a key consideration is having somebody competent to manage the scene. A Driver is sat in the most vulnerable position on the whole train. Having a Guard is not a luxury, it's plain common sense.

Get that man a beer!
 

yorkie

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GSMR, TPWS, AWS or a DSD does not prevent people from panicking and doing something silly like letting themselves off of the train.....
Yes, but can anything/anyone prevent it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41466140
Passengers forced open the doors on a busy rush-hour train and climbed on to tracks after becoming "panicked" in the carriage.

It happened outside Wimbledon station in south-west London at 08:30 BST as a man apparently began reading lines aloud from the Bible.

Commuters became scared when the man also began saying "death is not the end", a passenger said.

Rail power lines were cut as passengers "self-evacuated", police said.

Trains on the route were disrupted for nearly 12 hours, but are now running normally.
 

BestWestern

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Like a driver, you mean? Or a safety-trained member of on board staff ;)

Yes.... but very much unlike an "OBS" or any other name you might like to give the untrained, pointless job role that is intended to (temporarily) replace the Guard, which is of course the whole point of this exercise....
 

HH

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Part of me suspects we’re starting to see the real reason Stagecoach lost the franchise.....
The likely reason that Stagecoach lost the franchise is that they got complacent, just like most of the other long-running franchise losses. I doubt that SWR's plans for Guards, once risk-adjusted, produced a better NPV than Stagecoach's; it was elsewhere that the bid was won/lost.
 

HH

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Apart from the fact that Non-Commercial Guards do the last 3 'value added' things you listed anyway; giving information, assistance and reassurance.
I think that's largely down to the trains themselves, and I know this has been discussed before, but reassurance and assistance comes from visual sightings, which simply doesn't happen.
 

HH

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There is no obligation whatsoever for SWR to remove Guards from any of its services during this franchise. They have a government-issued franchise with a clear set of specifications, there is no reason at all why Guards need to be threatened. Running DOO 'if no Guard is available' is completely unworkable, this has been thoroughly examined several times. Your comment about the RMT's response at GWR is tedious and not worth a response, frankly.
However, they could run with a Commercial Guard, with Safety Responsibilities such as mentioned above, no door operation, but the train doesn't run without one. This seems a sensible compromise and yet neither side seems willing to suggest it.
 

TEW

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I think that's largely down to the trains themselves, and I know this has been discussed before, but reassurance and assistance comes from visual sightings, which simply doesn't happen.
It simply does. There is no reason for non-commercial guards not to be patrolling their trains where possible. (Obviously you can't patrol packed peak time services.) It is part of their duties, and any guard found not to be patrolling their train will find themselves in hot water with management.
 

Kite159

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It simply does. There is no reason for non-commercial guards not to be patrolling their trains where possible. (Obviously you can't patrol packed peak time services.) It is part of their duties, and any guard found not to be patrolling their train will find themselves in hot water with management.

Silly question, but when you get a 455+456+456 combo is there any instructions for the guard to remain in one of the rear sets to give a staff presence, swapping between the units as required?

Ideal world the guards will remain on SWR (and other TOCs) with the drivers asked to open the doors when the new stock arrives, allowing the guard to close them (such as what happens on other operators).
 

TEW

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Silly question, but when you get a 455+456+456 combo is there any instructions for the guard to remain in one of the rear sets to give a staff presence, swapping between the units as required?
The guard can operate the train from any unit, there are some circumstances where it is reccomended to remain in the rear unit but generally it is encouraged to move between units where possible. In practice though, it isn't very easy to swap between units with short dwell times and curved platforms where you need to be in a certain position for dispatch.
 

tsr

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A few miscellaneous points, if I may, to correct and advise on a few matters.

Firstly, with regards to rolling stock. Older rolling stock may need to have door controls activated or installed to allow a driver to operate the doors. Some of the mentioned stock has had cases where this has been done already, a long time ago, such as the 455s which operate in a green colour on Southern (and, interestingly, these particular units can all be controlled by either driver or guard). Unfortunately it is not actually terribly hard for door controls to be changed on a lot of stock - where the DfT has a will, usually a way will be found, even if it's not desirable for passengers or staff. You also need a way to monitor the doors - as shown by the installation of Driver Advisory System screens in a lot of rolling stock (tablet-sized screens which show eco-friendly driving and schedule information) it is also not too difficult to build in door monitoring displays, whether connected to cameras on the train or platform (the latter being how the Tube has been operated for many years).

As for technologies to alert signal boxes when things go wrong - do not rely on the signaller being able to provide useful advice or support immediately in a format which would be accessible to passengers. I have been involved in a few incidents recently, such as fatalities, trespassing and major signal failures, where the signaller and TOC controllers were too rushed off their feet in protecting the lines and deploying resources - and so on - that they were unable to provide any usable information to drivers of full-and-standing trains immediately affected by the problems. That is to say, trains which were stranded. In one case, the only message that was provided for something over half an hour was "somebody has stepped in front of another train", to a rammed-full service stranded on a railway line in the middle of a field with little phone signal. Some of these trains had very close calls with people attempting to use egress handles to exit onto the track or into other unsuitable locations. I would rely far less on the signallers (and, by extension and despite general willingness, drivers in the area) to be able to give understandable and location/traction specific advice to passengers on a stranded train, even if they are aware there is a problem of some sort with it. These were in areas with similar, if not almost identical, resources that SWR services would be controlled by.

A lot of conductors/guards etc. (less so intercity-style Train Managers) to whom I've spoken have expressed fears about job security in the next few years. Depending on your financial background and commitments, a guard's salary may not lay much basis for saving any form of significant sum for future uncertainty. Many are reasonably comfortable with their current stable income, but would be very worried indeed without one, as with many jobs out there. This is one of the biggest factors I am seeing with guards moving en-masse to making job applications for driver roles. A lot of talented conductors and guards could have been retained, perhaps even with enhancements to their roles (such as better equipment, fault finding abilities, professional development, etc.), had this not come into play. Admittedly my knowledge and conversations have mainly been around the south of England, but I should imagine the same applies equally in the north, east, west, and perhaps in parts of Scotland.

Because of these fears over jobs, and previously a culture of apathy towards the role in some geographical areas, staff may not be motivated to do their jobs properly, such as patrolling trains. Problems with visibility of staff do happen on SWR as well as anywhere else, and knowing the job as well as I do, I will not take it from anyone that performance does not need substantial improvement. However, I can also see, in equal or even greater measure, why staff sometimes do not feel encouraged to do what they should, and in some ways I fully sympathise. That being said, SWT generally had better morale than, say, Southern, so it is a bit of a mystery sometimes. It is not uncommon for the guard to be invisible on the train, wherever they are in the country. Things like staying visible and proactive whilst still being able to walk back to door controls in the back cab, or moving between units, are entirely possible with a bit of planning, and I can vouch for this on a personal level.

Because the general public do not (with the exception, it seems, of Wales) generally understand the scope of responsibilities which the guard has, staff do need to patrol their trains and show they are of value. This was one of the pitfalls with any TSGN franchise holder (whomever it might have been) trying to get a better deal from their onboard staff; and I have heard this from some surprising and indeed influential characters in the industry. Southern conductors in certain areas had developed habits of dispatching from the back cab or staying in one position, never taking commercial equipment, not looking out for passengers, never being seen on late night trains and so on. The shining stars of the onboard crew world (of which there were equally many) were let down by this, which dropped morale and meant that when job changes were introduced, the onboard wellbeing of passengers got worse rather than better, as well as the underlying safety issues of DOO.

Unfortunately, on my personal travels, I see visible and invisible guards on SWR in equal measure. I fully appreciate that even the invisible ones will have been tested and proved competent on what to do in an emergency, and I'm not saying they wouldn't do what's needed of them. But in order to retain responsibilities, job security and a permanent presence, all need to pull their weight. Again, I know this is not easy, and I can again sympathise with people who find railway shifts hard, dealing with the travelling public on a 24/7 basis. But there are perks to doing the job properly.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Well I was very happy with one particular SWR guard today, who let me enjoy 444 first class from Woking to Waterloo for no extra charge. Complementary jelly beans too.
 

TEW

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Unfortunately, on my personal travels, I see visible and invisible guards on SWR in equal measure. I fully appreciate that even the invisible ones will have been tested and proved competent on what to do in an emergency, and I'm not saying they wouldn't do what's needed of them. But in order to retain responsibilities, job security and a permanent presence, all need to pull their weight. Again, I know this is not easy, and I can again sympathise with people who find railway shifts hard, dealing with the travelling public on a 24/7 basis. But there are perks to doing the job properly.
I think this is the biggest problem, there is a big variance between those who are very good at the job, and those who perhaps aren't. Unfortunately there never seeems to have been any attempt to look in to why there is such variation, and how to improve the consistency. TOCs may say that they want to allow guards to focus on the customer service element of the job by removing the operational aspects but in my experience from travelling on the Southern network since the mass roll out of the OBS role, this is not what has happened. Rather than bringing all staff up to the high customer service standards of the previous best performers, it just seems to have destroyed morale. All the uncertainty, and removal of the operational aspects of the role, which can also be very rewarding, are not the way to motivate the staff to deliver a better, more consistent standard of customer service. There are definitely ways to improve the role of the Guard on SWR and deliver a better service to passengers. But Southern is all the evidence you need that going to an OBS role is not the way to achieve this.
 

Carlisle

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However, they could run with a Commercial Guard, with Safety Responsibilities such as mentioned above, no door operation, but the train doesn't run without one. This seems a sensible compromise and yet neither side seems willing to suggest it.
Wasn’t that virtually identical to the proposal First offered for most IEP stock in order to settle the GWR dispute shortly after tha last series of strikes took place , before they backrd down a few months later to voyager style dispatch for most services
 
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fairysdad

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It simply does. There is no reason for non-commercial guards not to be patrolling their trains where possible. (Obviously you can't patrol packed peak time services.) It is part of their duties, and any guard found not to be patrolling their train will find themselves in hot water with management.
That's interesting. For the past year or so I've been commuting on SWT/SWR's suburban lines, at different times each day (depending on what shift I'm working). Sometimes I'm on a packed train, sometimes a busy one, other times a quiet one. Most times, the guard says on the PA that they 'will be walking through the train during the journey', yet I could probably count on one hand the number of times that it's actually happened, and usually they're commercial guards as they've been checking tickets. There have been a few times when I've needed to speak to the guard (only once for any 'serious' reason - I informed him of some lost property) and have had to seek him* out on the platform and try to speak to him before he has started to dispatch.

(* I am not singling out male guards here - it's just easier to pick a pronoun rather than always type out 'the guard'!)
 

BestWestern

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Wasn’t that virtually identical to the deal First seriously proposed to settle the GWR dispute with shortly after tha last series of strikes took place , before they backrd down almost completely some months later, so they’re going to look rather weak and stupid if the repeat the same scenario

At what point in the GWR dispute do you consider the union "backed down"?!

The dispute ceased when the company provided an assurance that there would be no extension of DOO/DCO, contrary to their initial intention. SET is due to enter service next week, and all dispatch will be undertaken by the Guard.

What a very odd comment.
 

TEW

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That's interesting. For the past year or so I've been commuting on SWT/SWR's suburban lines, at different times each day (depending on what shift I'm working). Sometimes I'm on a packed train, sometimes a busy one, other times a quiet one. Most times, the guard says on the PA that they 'will be walking through the train during the journey', yet I could probably count on one hand the number of times that it's actually happened, and usually they're commercial guards as they've been checking tickets. There have been a few times when I've needed to speak to the guard (only once for any 'serious' reason - I informed him of some lost property) and have had to seek him* out on the platform and try to speak to him before he has started to dispatch.

(* I am not singling out male guards here - it's just easier to pick a pronoun rather than always type out 'the guard'!)
It is certainly true that the reality is not quite what it should be. Non-Commercial guards are required to patrol their trains, normally it is perfectly possible to do so, but too often it doesn't happen. There are some trains where it is more difficult; 458s and 456s mainly, and with long trains and frequent stops, lots of passengers still won't see the guard even where they are patrolling the train. I do think there is a culture problem at certain depots though, where it is seen as perfectly acceptable to just sit in the cab and do the doors, and I don't think that enough has been done to tackle this. I just can't understand it personally. The role of the guard has clearly been under threat for a few years now, you would think staff would be doing everything possible to show their value. One thing that I do not think that will make staff more visible, proactive and customer focused however is attempting to remove the operational aspects of the role. All I think that will achieve is demoralising those who currently do a good job, unfortunately leading them to do less, whilst at the same time doing nothing to encourage those who need some encouragement to do a bit more at the moment.
 

Harbouring

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At what point in the GWR dispute do you consider the union "backed down"?!

The dispute ceased when the company provided an assurance that there would be no extension of DOO/DCO, contrary to their initial intention. SET is due to enter service next week, and all dispatch will be undertaken by the Guard.

What a very odd comment.

I think they meant that First backed down not the unions
 

BestWestern

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It is certainly true that the reality is not quite what it should be. Non-Commercial guards are required to patrol their trains, normally it is perfectly possible to do so, but too often it doesn't happen. There are some trains where it is more difficult; 458s and 456s mainly, and with long trains and frequent stops, lots of passengers still won't see the guard even where they are patrolling the train. I do think there is a culture problem at certain depots though, where it is seen as perfectly acceptable to just sit in the cab and do the doors, and I don't think that enough has been done to tackle this. I just can't understand it personally. The role of the guard has clearly been under threat for a few years now, you would think staff would be doing everything possible to show their value. One thing that I do not think that will make staff more visible, proactive and customer focused however is attempting to remove the operational aspects of the role. All I think that will achieve is demoralising those who currently do a good job, unfortunately leading them to do less, whilst at the same time doing nothing to encourage those who need some encouragement to do a bit more at the moment.

One thing that SWT did, which was a very positive step, was the introduction of the 'location announcement' whereby the Guard states which carriage they are in at various times during the journey. A very good idea, and something which the vast majority of Guards adhered to in my experience. I have no objection whatsoever to the idea that Guards need to be earning their money, hiding is never acceptable.
 
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A few miscellaneous points, if I may, to correct and advise on a few matters.

Firstly, with regards to rolling stock. Older rolling stock may need to have door controls activated or installed to allow a driver to operate the doors. Some of the mentioned stock has had cases where this has been done already, a long time ago, such as the 455s which operate in a green colour on Southern (and, interestingly, these particular units can all be controlled by either driver or guard). Unfortunately it is not actually terribly hard for door controls to be changed on a lot of stock - where the DfT has a will, usually a way will be found, even if it's not desirable for passengers or staff. You also need a way to monitor the doors - as shown by the installation of Driver Advisory System screens in a lot of rolling stock (tablet-sized screens which show eco-friendly driving and schedule information) it is also not too difficult to build in door monitoring displays, whether connected to cameras on the train or platform (the latter being how the Tube has been operated for many years).

As for technologies to alert signal boxes when things go wrong - do not rely on the signaller being able to provide useful advice or support immediately in a format which would be accessible to passengers. I have been involved in a few incidents recently, such as fatalities, trespassing and major signal failures, where the signaller and TOC controllers were too rushed off their feet in protecting the lines and deploying resources - and so on - that they were unable to provide any usable information to drivers of full-and-standing trains immediately affected by the problems. That is to say, trains which were stranded. In one case, the only message that was provided for something over half an hour was "somebody has stepped in front of another train", to a rammed-full service stranded on a railway line in the middle of a field with little phone signal. Some of these trains had very close calls with people attempting to use egress handles to exit onto the track or into other unsuitable locations. I would rely far less on the signallers (and, by extension and despite general willingness, drivers in the area) to be able to give understandable and location/traction specific advice to passengers on a stranded train, even if they are aware there is a problem of some sort with it. These were in areas with similar, if not almost identical, resources that SWR services would be controlled by.

A lot of conductors/guards etc. (less so intercity-style Train Managers) to whom I've spoken have expressed fears about job security in the next few years. Depending on your financial background and commitments, a guard's salary may not lay much basis for saving any form of significant sum for future uncertainty. Many are reasonably comfortable with their current stable income, but would be very worried indeed without one, as with many jobs out there. This is one of the biggest factors I am seeing with guards moving en-masse to making job applications for driver roles. A lot of talented conductors and guards could have been retained, perhaps even with enhancements to their roles (such as better equipment, fault finding abilities, professional development, etc.), had this not come into play. Admittedly my knowledge and conversations have mainly been around the south of England, but I should imagine the same applies equally in the north, east, west, and perhaps in parts of Scotland.

Because of these fears over jobs, and previously a culture of apathy towards the role in some geographical areas, staff may not be motivated to do their jobs properly, such as patrolling trains. Problems with visibility of staff do happen on SWR as well as anywhere else, and knowing the job as well as I do, I will not take it from anyone that performance does not need substantial improvement. However, I can also see, in equal or even greater measure, why staff sometimes do not feel encouraged to do what they should, and in some ways I fully sympathise. That being said, SWT generally had better morale than, say, Southern, so it is a bit of a mystery sometimes. It is not uncommon for the guard to be invisible on the train, wherever they are in the country. Things like staying visible and proactive whilst still being able to walk back to door controls in the back cab, or moving between units, are entirely possible with a bit of planning, and I can vouch for this on a personal level.

Because the general public do not (with the exception, it seems, of Wales) generally understand the scope of responsibilities which the guard has, staff do need to patrol their trains and show they are of value. This was one of the pitfalls with any TSGN franchise holder (whomever it might have been) trying to get a better deal from their onboard staff; and I have heard this from some surprising and indeed influential characters in the industry. Southern conductors in certain areas had developed habits of dispatching from the back cab or staying in one position, never taking commercial equipment, not looking out for passengers, never being seen on late night trains and so on. The shining stars of the onboard crew world (of which there were equally many) were let down by this, which dropped morale and meant that when job changes were introduced, the onboard wellbeing of passengers got worse rather than better, as well as the underlying safety issues of DOO.

Unfortunately, on my personal travels, I see visible and invisible guards on SWR in equal measure. I fully appreciate that even the invisible ones will have been tested and proved competent on what to do in an emergency, and I'm not saying they wouldn't do what's needed of them. But in order to retain responsibilities, job security and a permanent presence, all need to pull their weight. Again, I know this is not easy, and I can again sympathise with people who find railway shifts hard, dealing with the travelling public on a 24/7 basis. But there are perks to doing the job properly.

I completely agree Southern does seem to have a large number of invisible Guards/OBS. It is staggering the number of OBS who hide in the back cab, don’t bother bringing any commercial equipment and remaining silent the whole journey. I regularly travel on Southern and Southeastern and find that Southeastern Conductors are much more opposite, every single journey with Southeastern passes and tickets are checked and the guard is making regular announcements. I can’t see any excuse for Southern OBS not to be at least trying, I really value the role of onboard staff and it’s a shame that a number of Southern OBS are not making themselves known because it’s another reason for management to get rid of the role going forward.
 

Carlisle

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At what point in the GWR dispute do you consider the union "backed down"?!

The dispute ceased when the company provided an assurance that there would be no extension of DOO/DCO, contrary to their initial intention. SET is due to enter service next week, and all dispatch will be undertaken by the Guard.

What a very odd comment.
 

Carlisle

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It was the company not the union that I said backed down, it seemed rather odd they so publicly stood up to the RMT before and during the strikes then quietly backed down a few months later, so if they repeat exactly the same scenario with SWR after going through several strikes in the process they’re going to look rather pathetic.
It’s been said on here SET was going to be guard dispatch except on oxford or bedwyn services, has that changed?
 
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PudseyBearHST

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It is certainly true that the reality is not quite what it should be. Non-Commercial guards are required to patrol their trains, normally it is perfectly possible to do so, but too often it doesn't happen. There are some trains where it is more difficult; 458s and 456s mainly, and with long trains and frequent stops, lots of passengers still won't see the guard even where they are patrolling the train. I do think there is a culture problem at certain depots though, where it is seen as perfectly acceptable to just sit in the cab and do the doors, and I don't think that enough has been done to tackle this. I just can't understand it personally. The role of the guard has clearly been under threat for a few years now, you would think staff would be doing everything possible to show their value. One thing that I do not think that will make staff more visible, proactive and customer focused however is attempting to remove the operational aspects of the role. All I think that will achieve is demoralising those who currently do a good job, unfortunately leading them to do less, whilst at the same time doing nothing to encourage those who need some encouragement to do a bit more at the moment.

I use SWR quite often and that's what I find too. Certain areas/depots, guards often walk up and down the train and check tickets and in other areas, I never see the guard even though being most or all of the journey. It's quite amusing though that they are taught to say "I'll be walking through the train and if you have any questions or require assistance, please ask" yet I never see some of them despite being on the entire journey. I'm not having a go at the guards by the way because most of them are friendly and lot of them do check tickets and walk through the train.

Again, I think this depot specific, but the worst I have ever heard regarding this topic was a Commercial Guard being suspended for not checking tickets. I assume a guards manager happened to be on the train.
 

Domh245

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It’s been said on here SET was going to be guard dispatch except on oxford or bedwyn services, has that changed?

As far as I'm aware, they'll all be conventional guard dispatch, apart from services which are already DOO that they are taking over from the Turbos, for which they will be DOO
 
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