Northern Powerhouse Rail / HS3 Timeline and Ideas

[YorkshireBear]

Having previously been an advocate of this idea I did the maths and decided Manchester to Leeds via Woodhead and a connection to HS2 eastern leg was too slow. Using new HS infrastructure instead of re-opening the Great Central would reduce that journey time, but on the other hand HS2 is now a lot further away with the re-routeing east of Sheffield.

This. Another major loss from the re-routing away from Meadowhall (which I am still bitter about by the way).

I think the only way to do it properly is a new tunnel. Probably where the woodhead is, but with new alignments either side. Serve the Leeds-Manchester section as priority. Frankly Sheffield has made its bed and would prefer HS trains use the existing network so let them do that for HS3 too and go into Midland, maybe reduce some of the frequencies on local lines to make capacity too. Or just knock Sheffield off HS3 completely as punishment for a council with no ambition or intelligence. Think I might have let my bitterness get in the way of my point again there.

Serious point. My main concern about HS3 is we could choose whatever route we want, but whichever it is (even if we upgrade existing) it is going to go through some areas with massive opposition. And the associated cost of pleasing those objections is unlikely to make it attractive to politicians to invest in.

Maybe today's BBC article is right, we need to take the power ourselves, rally together and fund it through councils and local businesses where possible and reduce what we ask the government for.

 

[Altnabreac]

Do we know which four junctions Osborne is referring to? I get the impression either he or his adviser has more rail knowledge than certain ministers currently in the DfT...

There would certainly be scope for a Liverpool branch off HS2 plus reinstatement of the recently-deleted east to west spur where the Manchester and Golborne legs split off. Along with some works in the Manchester area this would create a Manchester-Airport-Liverpool high speed route and allow HS2 trains to access Liverpool (at least most of the way) on high speed infrastructure.

My guess would be that the four junctions would be:
2 x Golborne northern chord junctions, realigned to allow Manchester - Liverpool services at high speed.
1 x Golborne - Liverpool junction to allow Liverpool line to branch off at a similar point to the northern chord.
1 x Clayton to allow Sheffield - Leeds services to use HS2.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Has there really been no consideration of what you do with other express flows in the North West? Liverpool to Manchester is obviously an important flow but Manchester to Preston isn't exactly irrelevant, especially when there are proper InterCity journeys to Cumbria and Scotland that way. It would really be great if basically all of the existing tracks could be metro-ified, either with Overground-style heavy rail services or Metrolink tram-trains.

 

[HSTEd]

Having previously been an advocate of this idea I did the maths and decided Manchester to Leeds via Woodhead and a connection to HS2 eastern leg was too slow. Using new HS infrastructure instead of re-opening the Great Central would reduce that journey time, but on the other hand HS2 is now a lot further away with the re-routeing east of Sheffield.

Really? Even at 300km/h you will eat up 5km every minute.
And with modern high speed sets being able to accelerate as fast as they can, I am not sure it is much of an issue.

I doubt it would be using Woodhead - I would expect that it would be a 'Pennine Base Tunnel'.
You would then either build an underground bypass of Sheffield or build a full high speed standard northern Sheffield approach.
Sheffield is ~65km east of Manchester Airport.

Leeds-Manchester Airport Via Sheffield is going to come in at 140km, and at 320km/h is 27 minutes, which comes in at about 35 minutes or so overall. Which just about meets the HS3 requirement.

EDIT:

If you have a triangle junction in the vicinity of Ryhill - that is about 72km from Manchester Airport.
Which gives a complete route between Leeds and Manchester Airport is about 98km overall.

That is about 20 minutes or so, so ~30 minutes including a stop at the Airport.

And it has a shorter journey time to Sheffield and other destinations than a direct route to Leeds, and avoids any new construction in city centres.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Has there really been no consideration of what you do with other express flows in the North West? Liverpool to Manchester is obviously an important flow but Manchester to Preston isn't exactly irrelevant, especially when there are proper InterCity journeys to Cumbria and Scotland that way. It would really be great if basically all of the existing tracks could be metro-ified, either with Overground-style heavy rail services or Metrolink tram-trains.

Perhaps when high speed rail gets past Manchester, then the InterCity journeys will revert back to the WCML on the space freed up by (let's call it) HS4.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Perhaps when high speed rail gets past Manchester, then the InterCity journeys will revert back to the WCML on the space freed up by (let's call it) HS4.

The problem is with the tracks in Manchester and the other cities. Unless more express trains are able to use NPR infrastructure to bypass existing congested junctions and suburban stations you just won't see that much benefit.

I think a better solution for Liverpool-Manchester is to have a new line roughly paralleling the Chat Moss one. If initially you could get away with re-using the eastern side of it, while still diving into a new tunnel before reaching the Windsor Link connection and the Castlefield corridor, then that would be fine. That's obviously the most direct route to Liverpool, so you get the lowest possible city centre to city centre journey time. But, if you build a set of flying junctions where it crosses HS2, you can plausibly provide a bypass from both Liverpool and Manchester to Wigan and the WCML, bypassing all of the legacy rail network. With quad-tracking and grade-separation of the WCML between Wigan and Preston being on the cards for Scotland journey time works, it would mean a proper mainline >100mph service being available between all of the major cities and regions of the North West. Preston to Manchester via the airport, on the other hand, would be basically pointless given the enormous dogleg involved.

 

[HSTEd]

PReston to Manchester via the Airport would likely still beat the existing alignment simply because the train never has to slow below 230km/h (For pointwork) and can otherwise cruise at 320km/h for the bulk of the journey.

It eats up track at a ludicrous rate doing that.

 

[Greybeard33]

EDIT:

If you have a triangle junction in the vicinity of Ryhill - that is about 72km from Manchester Airport.
Which gives a complete route between Leeds and Manchester Airport is about 98km overall.

That is about 20 minutes or so, so ~30 minutes including a stop at the Airport.

And it has a shorter journey time to Sheffield and other destinations than a direct route to Leeds, and avoids any new construction in city centres.

You say you want to avoid tunnelling out of Manchester, but how do you propose to head east from the Airport?

HS2 will be heading roughly SSW at the Airport station. If you curve round to the south from there, first you hit Airport City and the runways, then the large town of Wilmslow.

 

[HSTEd]

You say you want to avoid tunnelling out of Manchester, but how do you propose to head east from the Airport?

HS2 will be heading roughly SSW at the Airport station. If you curve round to the south from there, first you hit Airport City and the runways, then the large town of Wilmslow.

At 230km/h (set by available point work) you can manage quite a tight turn, and a tunnel clean under Handforth or even Stockport would cost much less than a tunnel that has to surface in a built up area. Much of the cost would be property costs for the inner portal and tunnel approach, which are avoided with a via airport route as all that is in open fields.

Going straight for leads you won't be able to surface much before Oldham anyway so that is seven or eight miles of tunnel and since there is no practical approach to Piccadilly from the north you can't run through high speed trains without two new tunneled routes into Manchester

 

[Greybeard33]

At 230km/h (set by available point work) you can manage quite a tight turn, and a tunnel clean under Handforth or even Stockport would cost much less than a tunnel that has to surface in a built up area. Much of the cost would be property costs for the inner portal and tunnel approach, which are avoided with a via airport route as all that is in open fields.

Going straight for leads you won't be able to surface much before Oldham anyway so that is seven or eight miles of tunnel and since there is no practical approach to Piccadilly from the north you can't run through high speed trains without two new tunneled routes into Manchester

You said your journey time calculations were based on 320km/h all the way from Leeds to Manchester. How much would be added by only 230 round the curves? And have you allowed for the extra distance swinging round to the south of the Airport?

I believe that minimum curve radius at 230km/h is about 2.5km, increasing to about 4.5km at 320km/h.

Tunnelling under Handforth implies also tunnelling under Bramhall, Hazel Grove and Marple. I suspect that would be comparable to the cost of tunnelling east from Piccadilly.

 

[edwin_m]

East from Piccadilly there is the possibility of using the former third and fourth tracks out to Guide Bridge. These ought to be cheaper than tunelling, the alignment could restrict speeds but as all trains will be stopping at Piccadilly that is less important.

 

[HSTEd]

You said your journey time calculations were based on 320km/h all the way from Leeds to Manchester. How much would be added by only 230 round the curves? And have you allowed for the extra distance swinging round to the south of the Airport?

I believe that minimum curve radius at 230km/h is about 2.5km, increasing to about 4.5km at 320km/h.

Turning roughly 120 degrees at the airport is roughly 5200m at 230km/hr.
That is about 90 seconds, and my estimate included a stop at Manchester Airport, you can also have a variable radius curve that starts as a 230km/hr curve and turns into a 320km/hr curve as the train accelerates again after the pointwork.

Tunnelling under Handforth implies also tunnelling under Bramhall, Hazel Grove and Marple. I suspect that would be comparable to the cost of tunnelling east from Piccadilly.

That will include your approach tunnels, but that does not include the massive flying junction required for Liverpool trains to use without massively losing speed..

East from Piccadilly there is the possibility of using the former third and fourth tracks out to Guide Bridge. These ought to be cheaper than tunelling, the alignment could restrict speeds but as all trains will be stopping at Piccadilly that is less important.

Modern trains accelerate at ludicrous rates though - a Class 395 (which is indicative of the acceleration capability of a modern high speed, very high power EMU) can be doing 100mph a mile out of the station.
By the time you reach guide bridge (5 miles down range) you could be doing 220km/h (and that is in a Class 395 that starts to take its foot off the pedal above 200km/h, a Series N700 Shinkansen will be much more by then)

 

[Greybeard33]

That will include your approach tunnels, but that does not include the massive flying junction required for Liverpool trains to use without massively losing speed.

I had in mind the route study for the National Infrastructure Commission report. This envisaged that the Liverpool to Manchester route would use HS2 infrastructure via the Airport. But Piccadilly HS would become a through station. A tunnel under central Manchester would loop around north then east to join the Calder Valley, Standedge or base tunnel corridor, depending on the transpennine option selected. No need for flying junctions or underground platforms at Piccadilly, nor for Liverpool to Leeds trains to reverse.

AFAIK the NPR journey time aspirations do not envisage non-stop Liverpool to Leeds services - just 20 minutes between Liverpool and Manchester and 30 minutes between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[HSTEd]

Interesting that this is entirely the opposite philosophy than that applied to HS2....

 

[NotATrainspott]

Interesting that this is entirely the opposite philosophy than that applied to HS2....

That does make sense though, since the starting position is so different. HS2 is building on two quasi-HSR lines with regular 125mph (and high average speed) services. In order to justify building a new line, it has to be really quite different to what is possible today. NPR doesn't need to be an HS2-style ultra-special line to make a difference. If it can get northern journeys to be equivalent in speed to London-Milton Keynes or Reading, then it'll make a major difference versus today's <100mph services on the twisty Standedge and Hope Valley routes.

 

[Holly]

The problem is with the tracks in Manchester and the other cities. Unless more express trains are able to use NPR infrastructure to bypass existing congested junctions and suburban stations you just won't see that much benefit.

I think a better solution for Liverpool-Manchester is to have a new line roughly paralleling the Chat Moss one. If initially you could get away with re-using the eastern side of it, while still diving into a new tunnel before reaching the Windsor Link connection and the Castlefield corridor, then that would be fine. That's obviously the most direct route to Liverpool, so you get the lowest possible city centre to city centre journey time. But, if you build a set of flying junctions where it crosses HS2, you can plausibly provide a bypass from both Liverpool and Manchester to Wigan and the WCML, bypassing all of the legacy rail network. With quad-tracking and grade-separation of the WCML between Wigan and Preston being on the cards for Scotland journey time works, it would mean a proper mainline >100mph service being available between all of the major cities and regions of the North West. Preston to Manchester via the airport, on the other hand, would be basically pointless given the enormous dogleg involved.

I find it hard to see how there is much case for anything more than quad tracking all the way from Liverpool to Hull.
It needs to be full quad tracking with fast junctions though - no pinch points, absolutely none. And that doubtless makes a new Pennine tunnel necessary.

 

[edwin_m]

I find it hard to see how there is much case for anything more than quad tracking all the way from Liverpool to Hull.
It needs to be full quad tracking with fast junctions though - no pinch points, absolutely none. And that doubtless makes a new Pennine tunnel necessary.

In theory a solution could be found to use the two single-track bores of Standege tunnel and probably the former four-track formation down through Huddersfield. The problem is not the Cross-Pennine tunnel itself but how to connect it to Manchester, since both the Micklehurst route and the alternative via Grotton and Oldham are far too far gone for reinstatement. This is, I guess, why there was some talk back up thread about a new tunnel from Diggle towards Manchester cutting off the detour via Stalybridge.

 

[Olaf]

I wonder if anyone who is well versed in the ways of Government papers and policy could help me out a little here please. I am currently trying to analyse the slightly nebulous and vague concept of HS3/Northern Powerhouse Rail from the point of view of literature confirmed by the Government.

For a start, HS3 was killed-off long ago, and was replaced by the NPR.

Some details here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3124344#post3124344

The intention is that initial proposals will be published by the end of this year, then they will go through the review analysis and funding process in 2018.

 

[snowball]

According to the November Modern Railways, page 19, Transport for the North is looking at a Manchester-Leeds route via Bradford rather than Huddersfield for NPR (the current name for HS3), plus improvements to Hope Valley and a new Liverpool-Manchester route via Warrington.

Not sure what thread to put this in as the relationship between high-speed rail and upgraded conventional lines seems fluid.

 

[snowball]

User Cherguevara on SSC has found this paper on which the Modern Railways item is apparently based:

http://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s4103/Item 7 - Vision for NPR - FINAL.pdf

It is a critical time in NPR’s development over the next few months, with decisions being taken now around touchpoints with HS2 and the inclusion of these in HS2’s Phase 2b Hybrid Bill design work. Also, a preferred, single option for the NPR network is being decided upon, as part of the development of a Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) to be completed later in 2018.

At its recent Partnership Board meeting, TfN confirmed that its emerging vision for the NPR network is:

 A new line between Liverpool and the HS2 Manchester spur via Warrington;
 Capacity at Manchester Piccadilly for about 8 through services per hour;
 A new Trans Pennine rail line that connects Manchester and Leeds via Bradford;
 Significant upgrades along the corridor of the existing Hope Valley from Sheffield to Manchester line via Stockport;
 Leeds to Sheffield delivered through HS2 Phase 2b and upgrading the route from Sheffield;
 Leeds to Newcastle via HS2 junction at Garforth and upgrades to the East Coast Mainline; and
 Significant upgrades to existing line for Leeds to Hull (via Selby) and Sheffield to Hull (via Doncaster).

An immediate priority for the TfN Partnership Board is ensuring that Northern Powerhouse Rail is fully integrated into the planning of Phase 2B of HS2, to ensure both maximum value for money and that NPR can be developed without delay. The Board is calling on the Secretary of State for Transport to ensure that six vital touchpoints are included in the HS2 Phase 2B Hybrid Bill:

 Provision for a junction between HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail east of Leeds at Garforth to create capacity for NPR services from Leeds to York and beyond. This would enable faster Leeds – York – Darlington – Durham – Newcastle services, and release capacity for more local and commuter services east of Leeds.
 A connection south of Leeds at Stourton between the HS2 Eastern Leg and existing line into Leeds, enabling NPR trains to run from Sheffield to Leeds and on to York and the North East, thus connecting Leeds from north and south.
 A connection north of Sheffield at Clayton, enabling trains to run through Sheffield and rejoin the HS2 line to Leeds.
 Provision for a junction between HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail on the HS2 Manchester Airport spur south-west of the airport, allowing construction of a new line to serve Liverpool-Manchester Airport-Manchester.
 Provision for a junction on the HS2 mainline north of Crewe, allowing for HS2 services to Liverpool.
 Realignment of the HS2 route on the approach to Manchester Piccadilly to enable either an underground Northern Powerhouse Rail through station adjacent to the HS2 Manchester Piccadilly station or a surface turn-back station that supports delivery of higher level NPR service frequencies

The money for HS2/NPR "touchpoints" announced by the Chancellor at the Tory party conference (see other threads) seems to have been a rapid response to part of what they're asking for here.

 

[edwin_m]

Interested to see whether a route via Bradford actually serves Bradford or just somewhere in the vicinity, how they manage to get a HS line through the very hilly area around Bradford, and how on earth they manage to achieve their 30min Manchester-Leeds journey time target.

 

[MarkyT]

Interested to see whether a route via Bradford actually serves Bradford or just somewhere in the vicinity, how they manage to get a HS line through the very hilly area around Bradford, and how on earth they manage to achieve their 30min Manchester-Leeds journey time target.

Not all fast trains need to call at Bradford, but if the new line passes fairly close to the city some express services from the Manchester direction could branch off to serve Interchange station with a very competitive journey time. Others could bypass Bradford on the avoiding line to achieve the target Manchester-Leeds timings. The Bradford trains could then reverse at Interchange, continuing on to serve Leeds and useful destinations to the east.

 

[lejog]

Interested to see whether a route via Bradford actually serves Bradford or just somewhere in the vicinity, how they manage to get a HS line through the very hilly area around Bradford, and how on earth they manage to achieve their 30min Manchester-Leeds journey time target.

There is a possible route out of Bradford to Leeds, which would only require demolition of some extremely grotty industrial units, relocation of scrap yards etc in Bradford, which may be viewed as an ideal opportunity for regeneration. That is east from Bradford Interchange towards the old Hammerton St station, following the current Calder Valley alignment to the edge of the built up area, then passing south of Pudsey along the rural valley of Pudsey Beck to join the Huddersfield line at the edge of Leeds. This steadily rises 80m in 4km, then steadily drops 120m in 8km.

I can't see an obvious route through the more residential western areas of Bradford though without tunnelling, so I too would have thought a spur from Low Moor into Bradford Interchange or a parkway station south of the city would be more likely.

 

[matt_world2004]

If any hs3 project requires tunnelling through a city a metro tunnel should be dug in the same place with the metro stations providing ventlation and evacuation access points. Two tracks metro. Two tracks high speed.

 

[MarkyT]

There is a possible route out of Bradford to Leeds, which would only require demolition of some extremely grotty industrial units, relocation of scrap yards etc in Bradford, which may be viewed as an ideal opportunity for regeneration. That is east from Bradford Interchange towards the old Hammerton St station, following the current Calder Valley alignment to the edge of the built up area, then passing south of Pudsey along the rural valley of Pudsey Beck to join the Huddersfield line at the edge of Leeds. This steadily rises 80m in 4km, then steadily drops 120m in 8km.

I can't see an obvious route through the more residential western areas of Bradford though without tunnelling, so I too would have thought a spur from Low Moor into Bradford Interchange or a parkway station south of the city would be more likely.

Something like this perhaps:
http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

 

[lejog]

Well joining the Calder Valley at that point to the east of the city yes, but apart from that nothing like that at all, more a west-east route running from Bradford Interchange to the south of that one through the grotty industrial area of Dryden St, and certainly none of that Crossrail like stuff through the city centre. Why is it that any discussion of Bradford on this forum has to turn to Crossrail? The last thread about NPR and Bradford was swamped by the off-topic nonsense, can we keep this thread free of it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just caught up on this. Very impressed with the rapid progress in the touch points. Will be interesting to see id NPR does get the funding promised. I feel as if the headline triangle will and hull and Liverpool will lose out again. Time will tell, certainly watch with interest.

 

[absolutelymilk]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/at-last-faster-trains-to-arrive-in-north-87w26sdzm

Plans leaked to The Sunday Times reveal how a new fast train line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford will form the centrepiece of plans, previously known as HS3, to be published next year.

According to the Times, there will be a new line from Manchester to Leeds via Bradford, as well as an upgrade of the Manchester-Leeds line via Huddersfield.

In a map featured in the article, there also seems to be a new line starting in Liverpool, through Warrington and then splitting into one line which connects into HS2 and one which hits the Crewe-Manchester line just south of Manchester Airport. However, it is unclear if these feature in the latest plans or if these are just possible routes in previous plans produced by TfN.

 

[Bantamzen]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/at-last-faster-trains-to-arrive-in-north-87w26sdzm


According to the Times, there will be a new line from Manchester to Leeds via Bradford, as well as an upgrade of the Manchester-Leeds line via Huddersfield.

In a map featured in the article, there also seems to be a new line starting in Liverpool, through Warrington and then splitting into one line which connects into HS2 and one which hits the Crewe-Manchester line just south of Manchester Airport. However, it is unclear if these feature in the latest plans or if these are just possible routes in previous plans produced by TfN.

This is the full text of the article (taken from Skyscraper City: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1790298&page=7)

At last, faster trains to arrive in north.

Rail links between three of Britain’s largest cities — Manchester, Bradford and Leeds — will be upgraded as part of the multibillion-pound Northern Powerhouse Rail project.

Plans leaked to The Sunday Times reveal how a new fast train line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford will form the centrepiece of plans, previously known as HS3, to be published next year.

Bradford is Britain’s fifth-largest city with 530,000 residents, but has appalling rail connections. It takes 58 minutes — on the fastest trains — to travel just 30 miles to Manchester and 19 minutes for the eight-mile trip to Leeds. The route between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford on the ageing Calder Valley line takes about one hour, 22 minutes
The faster trans-Pennine route between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield will also be upgraded, according to the plans, in an effort to slash the fastest journey time between the two cities from 49 minutes to just 30 minutes. However, it appears a proposed new trans-Pennine rail line connecting Manchester to Sheffield and Leeds via the £56bn HS2 network, which had appeared in a 2016 plan, has been scrapped.

Westminster sources say that officials at the Department for Transport (DfT) had said it was too expensive and would not win support.
The decision is likely to spark a row with political leaders in Sheffield who have called for a new route to replace the city’s slow line to Manchester. It takes 48 minutes to travel between the two cities.

Angela Smith, the Labour MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, said: “Our Victorian ancestors understood the importance of building major rail links between Sheffield and Manchester, and yet now we struggle to get a commitment to rebuilding those links from the transport secretary, Chris Grayling.”

Transport for the North (TfN) is likely to insist that even though there will be no newly built line, upgrading the existing Sheffield to Manchester line will cut the journey times to 30 minutes.

The government’s announcement earlier this year of a £30 billion Crossrail 2 scheme for London while rail projects in the north were downgraded caused outrage. There has been growing resentment from northern leaders — including the mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham — that the north desperately needs investment. Commuters in the region have for years been frustrated by slow rail services on old, overcrowded carriages, and have still seen ticket prices go up.

Research by the Institute of Public Research North reveals an estimated £59bn investment gap during the past decade for northern commuters compared with people living in London.

TfN documents show a package of road and rail improvements to boost the north would cost up to £27bn, still considerably less than London’s investment.

Alex Heywood, 34, a commuter from Burnage, south Manchester, said: “The rail network in the north is neglected in comparison to the south.

“I journey between the northern cities on business and the service is poor. It’s far too slow. And yet it’s possible to get to London in under two hours? It’s clearly a choice to neglect the north.”

The proposed network will also include upgrades to lines serving Newcastle, Hull and Liverpool. George Osborne, then chancellor, first championed HS3 as part of his northern powerhouse project.

Unlike the 225mph HS2 network trains connecting London with the Midlands and northern England, however, trains on the new east-west network are unlikely to go faster than 125mph, according to rail industry insiders.

“They don’t really need line speeds of much more than 100mph because the cities are not that far apart,” said one source. “At some point they were talking about a high-speed line. It’s totally unnecessary. Nowhere in the world is there a high-speed line between places that are so near to each other.”

TfN plans also include the possible introduction of smart ticketing for Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR), a system that electronically stores a travel ticket on a smart card that can be carried in a purse or wallet. TfN said the final NPR network had not been signed off and declined to comment.

As optimistic as this article is, I just honestly cannot see there being funds available to upgrade the TP North & South routes as well as build a new line towards, and more problematic through Bradford & onto Leeds. My instinct says that it will just be some additional work on the Calder Valley to squeeze out a few more minutes saving along the way.

 

[deltic]

This is the full text of the article (taken from Skyscraper City: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1790298&page=7)



As optimistic as this article is, I just honestly cannot see there being funds available to upgrade the TP North & South routes as well as build a new line towards, and more problematic through Bradford & onto Leeds. My instinct says that it will just be some additional work on the Calder Valley to squeeze out a few more minutes saving along the way.

Given the parlous state of the business case for this scheme I would agree with you. We seem to be trapped in a world where official bodies produce pie in the sky ideas that are then endlessly watered down or scrapped although leading to further and further disillusionment.