Is a ticket to all london terminals valid on the tube?

[kieron]

Is this really valid?

Of course it is. A Clapham-London ticket isn't valid to any of the southern London Terminals, though.

 

[island]

Of course it is. A Clapham-London ticket isn't valid to any of the southern London Terminals, though.

If you’re going to be that pedantic, a Clapham to London Terminals ticket isn’t valid via Watford, as Moor Park to Watford does not have any interavailability for NR tickets

 

[alistairlees]

When you buy a ticket to London, it says all terminals. If I want to travel from Brighton to St Pancras, I will as that's the station I bought the ticket to. My question was for the tube.

You are quite right, you will indeed travel to London St Pancras. That is because a ticket from Brighton to London St Pancras does NOT have the destination London Terminals on it; it has London St Pancras instead. It also has a route "Not Underground" meaning that it is valid through the central Thameslink core to reach St Pancras, but not via the Underground from (e.g.) London Victoria.

 

[Joe Paxton]

You are quite right, you will indeed travel to London St Pancras. That is because a ticket from Brighton to London St Pancras does NOT have the destination London Terminals on it; it has London St Pancras instead. It also has a route "Not Underground" meaning that it is valid through the central Thameslink core to reach St Pancras, but not via the Underground from (e.g.) London Victoria.

I think there are a few on here who have come up with some fairly arcane argument about how, for example, a Brighton to St Pancras ticket could be valid via Victoria and then a walk.

It's not an argument I would wish to try and put into practice, not just because I don't understand some of the logical thinking at work behind it (in terms of the fine reading and interpretation of the NRCoT and routing guide), but because it just seems to me to fail a more general test of reasonableness. But I thought I'd muddy the waters and mention it anyway!

 

[Haywain]

That is because a ticket from Brighton to London St Pancras does NOT have the destination London Terminals on it

Unless it's a ticket to London Terminals, of course. Such tickets exist for route Any Permitted and route Thameslink Only.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Unless it's a ticket to London Terminals, of course. Such tickets exist for route Any Permitted and route Thameslink Only.

Not coming from points south for travel to St Pancras they don't, UIVMM?!

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's probably easier to learn Klingon than to understand London Terminals validity. It's long over due for sorting but pretty much all the London and South East regulated fares are based round the existing routeing and validity and the DfT simply doesn't have the capability for the kind of political decisions needed to untangle it so for the time being nothing's happening. However the opening of Crossrail and Thameslink's extension over the GN lines are going to make it even more baffling - consider, for example, Cambridge or Abbey Wood to Farringdon when both routes are fully operational, so I suspect (like quite a bit of the legacy BR fares structure that was fossilised in 1996) it's eventually going to collapse under its own contradictions and have to be updated.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Slightly strangely a London Terminals gold card (from the south) works the barriers at St Pancras. It does not work them at Farringdon, but does at City Thameslink. I’ve always assumed that the Farringdon/City Thameslink issue is because the latter replaced Holborn Viaduct, which was a valid, from the south, London terminal, whereas the former was never valid, the through services having stopped somewhere around 1916 and thus before the Southern Railway or the Southern Region of BR.

St Pancras is just a glitch, the ticket should not work the barriers and in reality is not technically valid.

 

[Haywain]

Not coming from points south for travel to St Pancras they don't, UIVMM?!

The OP said they use tickets to "London (all) Terminals" to travel to St Pancras. I think we've established that they are misusing a ticket that isnt valid at St Pancras, likely to be one of those I have mentioned.

 

[Hadders]

It's probably easier to learn Klingon than to understand London Terminals validity. It's long over due for sorting but pretty much all the London and South East regulated fares are based round the existing routeing and validity and the DfT simply doesn't have the capability for the kind of political decisions needed to untangle it so for the time being nothing's happening. However the opening of Crossrail and Thameslink's extension over the GN lines are going to make it even more baffling - consider, for example, Cambridge or Abbey Wood to Farringdon when both routes are fully operational, so I suspect (like quite a bit of the legacy BR fares structure that was fossilised in 1996) it's eventually going to collapse under its own contradictions and have to be updated.

In the days before Thameslink it was reasonably straightforward as there were no National (British) Rail lines that crossed London. A fudge was made for Thameslink which does work.

There’ll be pressure to extend London Thameslink to Great Northern flows when trains start running through the core. Will we then end up with London Crossrail (or London Elizabeth) as a similar fudge for crossrail?

One idea, given that Crossrail and Thameslink cross at Farringdon is to say that London Terminals tickets are valid to Farringdon but no further. There would be some winners and losers:

From the south - you would be able to travel one station further than at present (City Thameslink to Farringdon, not the end of the world given the stations are so close)

From the North - current Thameslink would lose out with no validity beyond Farringdon (maybe freeze London Thameslink fares for a year or so as a sweetener). GN customers would gain Farringdon (interestingly they can already pass through on the underground due to the inter-availability but cannot board or alight)

From the West - You’d be able to travel from Paddington to Farringdon (quite a bit of extra validity gaining Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon)

From the East you gain one station from Liverpool Street to Farringdon.

I suppose another twist on this would be to say you cannot go to Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket from any direction leaving Farringdon as an island.

Just my thoughts - as @thedbdiboy says there isn’t the capability at the DfT to make the decision.

 

[tsr]

To make things worse, there are plenty of staff who will (in good faith, possibly having not been trained in this specific matter) advise that you are permitted to use Thameslink from destinations south of London through to Farringdon or St Pancras on a ticket with destination "London Terminals".

Because the barriers at St Pancras (which is a more popular candidate for this error) do not recognise this error, passengers who have been told about this being permitted will probably only get contradicted if there is an onboard check between City Thameslink and St Pancras. These are not unheard of, but they are also not on every train, especially busy ones.

Lastly, I believe several screenshots have been posted around the internet showing TVMs at all sorts of stations issuing tickets to "London Terminals" where the journey actually crosses London on the Thameslink Core, and the ticket should be issued to "London Thameslink" or the named station.

If somebody on the platform tells you the ticket is OK, and the barriers let you through, it would be hard for most people to see why anyone is making a song and dance about the thing not being valid anyway. The specific argument that ticket barriers do not establish ticket validity (which they don't) is a particular non-starter with most of the travelling public.

This really needs to be sorted out, because it's so hard to explain and deal with when it all goes wrong. But we've already seen in previous posts that this is unlikely...

 

[DelW]

One option might be to establish a 'central stations' group comprising the stations between St Pancras and Blackfriars on Thameslink, and between Liverpool St and Paddington on Crossrail. Fares to this group of stations would be more than to 'London Terminals' (because they take you further), but less than to zone U1 (because they wouldn't include Underground validity). The 'London Terminals' ticket validity would end at St Pancras from the north, Liverpool St from the east, Blackfriars from the south, and Paddington from the west, which is roughly equivalent to their extent on non-cross-city routes. However, unless the 'London Terminals' name was changed, there would still be the oddity that on these routes, the limit of validity is not actually a terminal.

Would this be feasible and / or logical?

 

[Iggy12a]

I believe several screenshots have been posted around the internet showing TVMs at all sorts of stations issuing tickets to "London Terminals" where the journey actually crosses London on the Thameslink Core, and the ticket should be issued to "London Thameslink" or the named station.
.

The 4 new S&B TVMs at Gatwick (installed in July) allow the customer to select a destination of, say, London Euston or London Paddington, and it then proceeds to sell them a ticket to "London Terminals" at £15.70. I feel sorry for the poor unsuspecting tourist who will then be denied onward travel on the tube at Victoria.

 

[swt_passenger]

St Pancras is just a glitch, the ticket should not work the barriers and in reality is not technically valid.

AIUI from previous discussions it isn't really a glitch, it's just because London Terminals can only be coded on magstripes one way, irrespective of origin. Your ticket would work (although without validity) at any London Terminal, even unconnected ones such as Paddington or Liverpool St.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the days before Thameslink it was reasonably straightforward as there were no National (British) Rail lines that crossed London. A fudge was made for Thameslink which does work.
[...]
Just my thoughts - as @thedbdiboy says there isn’t the capability at the DfT to make the decision.

The existing "fudge" for Thameslink only really works from the north.

DfT put the requirement to sort it out so that it worked similarly form north and south into the TSGN franchise spec. Probably didn't realise it was such a can of worms.

I've posted similar stuff to you before about the completely foreseeable problems that Crossrail will introduce and strongly suspect DfT haven't even thought about it at all.

 

[yorkie]

By the way, The OP turned out to be a duplicate of another user (who was already banned) so won't be able to reply.

It's probably easier to learn Klingon than to understand London Terminals validity. It's long over due for sorting but pretty much all the London and South East regulated fares are based round the existing routeing and validity and the DfT simply doesn't have the capability for the kind of political decisions needed to untangle it so for the time being nothing's happening. However the opening of Crossrail and Thameslink's extension over the GN lines are going to make it even more baffling - consider, for example, Cambridge or Abbey Wood to Farringdon when both routes are fully operational, so I suspect (like quite a bit of the legacy BR fares structure that was fossilised in 1996) it's eventually going to collapse under its own contradictions and have to be updated.

Problem is not everyone is prepared to accept the "existing validity"; Great Eastern mainline stations to London Terminals are valid into Kings Cross (via Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park) by the rules but this is erroneously not listed in the (incomplete) data file list of "valid" terminals.

The list accepts Richmond to London is valid into Euston (correct) but bizarrely omits anywhere west of Richmond.

Good job it has no contractual status and is ignored by booking engines

 

[Skimpot flyer]

This is all silly. So I can go from Clapham to Euston via Watford with a London terminals ticket but not from Brighton to St Pancras. If I buy a ticket from Brighton to St Pancras it will say London terminals on it in which case I'll travel to St Pancras.

Good luck with that. There are prominent notices on the staircases at Clapham Junction, as you approach Platform 1 (whether that be via the footbridge or subway).
They clearly state: Tickets marked 'London Terminals are NOT valid from trains departing from Platform 1'
If you encounter a London Overground inspector, even before the train has called at Imperial Wharf, you will be in hot water.
In any case, even if you used a Southern WLL train from Platform 17, surely you would be 'doubling back' between Wembley Central and Watford ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's probably easier to learn Klingon than to understand London Terminals validity.

In general, it's not difficult to understand: it's valid to the first London Terminal you arrive at.

Thameslink isnt really an exception from this: from the North you can only go as far as St Pancras. From the south you can get to City Thameslink, but that's mostly because it replaced Holborn Viaduct, which was a London Terminal.

The tangle of lines on the south bank is a bit more complicated, especially being able to continue from Waterloo via Waterloo East to London Bridge or Charing Cross. But even there generally you're only valid as far as the first terminal you arrive at.

 

[Starmill]

But even there generally you're only valid as far as the first terminal you arrive at.

So this applies to nobody who travels to London Waterloo then as you have to pass Vauxhall to get there?

 

[Joe Paxton]

In general, it's not difficult to understand: it's valid to the first London Terminal you arrive at.

Thameslink isnt really an exception from this: from the North you can only go as far as St Pancras. From the south you can get to City Thameslink, but that's mostly because it replaced Holborn Viaduct, which was a London Terminal.

The tangle of lines on the south bank is a bit more complicated, especially being able to continue from Waterloo via Waterloo East to London Bridge or Charing Cross. But even there generally you're only valid as far as the first terminal you arrive at.

I'm sorry but at best that's just misleading, at worst downright wrong.

Every day an awful lot of people pass through not just one London Terminal in the form of London Bridge but two - the second being Waterloo East - before arriving at Charing Cross. Plenty more pass through London Bridge en route to Cannon Street, and in the near future (as in the past) plenty more will pass through London Bridge on the way to Blackfriars with some going on to City Thameslink, both stations being London Terminals.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So this applies to nobody who travels to London Waterloo then as you have to pass Vauxhall to get there?

Having Vauxhall as a London Terminal is stupid, imo. Finsbury Park isn't, which keeps things much easier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sorry but at best that's just misleading, at worst downright wrong

The tangle of lines on the south bank is an exception, and I referred to London Bridge/Waterloo East.

Generally it's the case though. You pass through no other London Terminals when you arrive at Paddington, Marylebone, Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street or Victoria.

The tangle on the south bank is a quirk of history, and I do understand why people get caught out by Farringdon not being a London Terminal.

But the OP's whinge isn't about Farringdon, it's about not getting a free trip on the tube.

 

[MikeWh]

Having Vauxhall as a London Terminal is stupid, imo. Finsbury Park isn't, which keeps things much easier.

But Old Street is. Validity to Vauxhall is useful for a lot of Kent commuters.

Someone commuting from Woking to Cannon Street will pass through Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East and London Bridge before getting to Cannon Street. Yes, I know you can't do it until next year, and most wouldn't bother with the hassle, but it is valid.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But Old Street is.

True, and that's another one that doesn't really need to be, as you can always stop short on tickets to Moorgate.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The tangle of lines on the south bank is an exception, and I referred to London Bridge/Waterloo East.

It's a pretty massive exception, given the number of passengers making such journeys - and I specifically highlighted the fact that many through trains make the LBG-WAE-CHX journey, rather than anything involving a change between Waterloo Main and East. So I maintain your earlier paragraph below is very misleading:

The tangle of lines on the south bank is a bit more complicated, especially being able to continue from Waterloo via Waterloo East to London Bridge or Charing Cross. But even there generally you're only valid as far as the first terminal you arrive at.

 

[MikeWh]

Someone commuting from Woking to Cannon Street will pass through Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East and London Bridge before getting to Cannon Street.

I see you chose to ignore this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I see you chose to ignore this.

Already mentioned it in the reply to Joe.

Maybe I'm underestimating how many people make the changes through Waterloo East.

I'm probably also being a bit too literal about a terminal (yes, I'd not realised that Vauxhall was one...seems mad to me).

Ah well, at least we can agree about the tube (at least if we don't mention Moorgate...)

 

[Hadders]

Thameslink isnt really an exception from this: from the North you can only go as far as St Pancras. From the south you can get to City Thameslink, but that's mostly because it replaced Holborn Viaduct, which was a London Terminal.

This is incorrect. Tickets to London from Stations between Bedford and Kentish Town are issues to ‘London Thameslink’. These tickets are valid as far south as London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tickets to London Terminals aren't valid beyond St Pancras though!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I see you chose to ignore this.

Do many people do this? I'd have thought most going from Surrey/Hants to the City are paying the extra to get the W&C line or the Red Arrow