I don't understand why people are so bothered about this. If I were in Northernland I'd rather swap all the (inadequate) new DMU and EMU orders for twice as many used EMUs and DEMU conversions with a decent interior refurb, and I think the economics would be about like that. Being able to go to 6 or 8-car operation as a matter of course out of Manchester in the peaks would be far more of a benefit than a fancy new 2-car DMU, which is what is going to happen due to the inadequate quantity. Same for Wales.
My view is that the important thing is that the rolling stock is suitable for the route it is used on. For example, I'd rather they used refurbished class 156s on Swansea to Fishguard/Milford services than a brand new DMU with tiny Pendolino-style windows and a Capitalstar interior.
There's going to have to be some cast-offs from somewhere. Train services will cease on 1/1/2020 in most of Wales, esp South East Wales, otherwise. The 769s, which are London commuter cast-offs, are the ideal solution. Given a decent interior refurbishment and removal of original 3+2 seating with 2+2, Joe public will think they are new. Run on diesel until the wires are up, then electric when they are. With the glut of EMUs coming off lease soon, (319s, 321s, 323s, 360s) get the wires up first, then worry about new EMUs in 5-10 years time.
I think 769s as Pacer replacements is probably a good idea, but the proposal of fitting class 230s with batteries and pantographs isn't bad either. The one plus with the 769s is that it might be possible to make them suitable for outer-suburban work (by ensuring decent legroom in the airline seating and putting in a few table bays that align with the windows) and hence cascade them onto Swansea/Cardiff-Hereford/Chepstow/Cheltenham services once the ValleyLines are fully electrified. The small windows and 60mph top speed on the former London Underground stock mean they are only suitable for the inner-suburban ValleyLines services and would have to stay there regardless of electrification. Even better than 769s or 230s could be 458s with a battery fitted; there's nothing official about that being possible but the 'Pan Up' column in Modern Railways in recent months suggested doing that for the Uckfield line. It would have to be the original 30x 4-car units, not the full 36x 5-car 458/5 fleet to be suitable for the ValleyLines though probably. But will the 458s be off-lease by 2020 anyway?
Whether you go for 769s or 230s, I think the key thing is to only use them to replace the Pacers. The initial phases of the Metro should then focus on phasing out the 150s, getting whole routes (eg. Barry Island to Aberdare) wired up and introducing some straight EMUs. The big risk is that the ROSCO(s) who own the 150s will require too long a lease to allow them to be taken off the franchise when electrification happens. I suppose some 150s could be used for the north-east Wales Metro, but there's not nearly enough work for all 36 units on the franchise without putting them on jobs they are not suitable for.
clearly the idea that we should have brand new trains above all else is foolish. While I was frustrated when the initial suggestion of 313s was made, the 323s would be ideal - the sort of trains that with a lick of paint you could pass off as new without the vast majority of customers realising. That's a fleet of 43 3-car trains for the Valleys network - compared to 66 2-car trains and 8 153s now (some of which aren't used on the Valley Lines anyway) you're pretty much at what you'd need
Even better than the 323s could be 379s or 458s if they can be rejigged into 3-car formations (perhaps with some 4-car sets too, depending on whether 769s are kept for the routes with 4-car platforms). Any of 350/2s, 379s and 458s would look like new trains compared to 150s and have air-con unlike the 323s. Still, I agree with you that there is no need to buy new, but why not try to grab more-modern EMUs coming off-lease rather than going for the 323s?. 707s reformed into 4-car and 6-car formations might work if only they had toilets. Also I don't think a 6-car 323 formation would fit at many ValleyLines platforms (some of which are designed for 4x20m and others for 6x20m), and I think there's an issue with 23m vehicles on the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr lines.
I hope the new W&B franchise will replace the eight 153s with all the 156s currently due off-lease (5 from ScotRail and, if I recall correctly, 9 from Anglia) and use the 156s on HOWL and Pembrokeshire services to cascade 150s to replace the 153s that are diagrammed around Cardiff. If that leaves enough 156s to go around I think they should also work the Conwy Valley line but if not I guess the 2-car 175s are the closest alternative.
The problem comes with the infrastructure - I think it's inevitable that the Assembly will want some form of wires put up, but someone's got to pay for that. I suspect they'll want to do it as cheaply as possible, and they seem to be won over by the idea that tram extensions and extra stations are cheaper than adding heavy rail extensions and stations. But that's not doing it properly
Anything short of heavy rail electrification is going to be frustrating, but I think Skates and co will think they can con people into thinking something like a tram-train will be an upgrade because it'd be brand new, when it clearly isn't. There's huge political capital in both building something brand new and doing it on a reasonable budget, and that's ultimately what politicians are primarily interested in - not whether or not it'll actually work
I think the best answer is to electrify the ValleyLines AND build a brand-new (initially small, to keep costs down) tram system in central Cardiff. The problem with that is you can't make the initial system all that small because it needs to be long enough to get to somewhere that has sufficient space to build a depot for the trams.
My chances to ride them in the last 19 months have been limited so cant really comment on condition however they are the sort of unit that seem to be the ones culled in the brave new world of quality franchise bids its no coincidence that the glut of off lease DMU's are all post privatisation types- TPE 185's (22 x3), GA 170's and LM 170's. (84 carriages mainly 2 car some 3).
Wales and Borders has one route that equates to the 7 Scottish City's/TPE or even Northern Connect. That's Swansea-Neath-Port Talbot-Brigend-Cardiff-Newport-Cwmbran-Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester and that needs something better on it than a 170/175.
Why do you only pick out Swansea-Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Manchester? How is that different from Aberystwyth-Birmingham, Bangor-Birmingham and Holyhead-Manchester? Personally, I think the 175s are perfectly suitable for Swansea-Manchester apart from the inadequate train length and the current state of some of the seats (the padding has gone leaving an uncomfortable bar digging into my back if I lean back). 170s however are not suitable for principal fast services in my opinion due to the door layout.
If only they had been built with gangways.
Agreed completely, if the class 175s had unit end gangways they would be really great. They could do things like Manchester to Llandudno AND Holyhead with a split a Llandudno Junction, or with ETCS as well would be great for the Cambrian and Birmingham-Chester routes. As they are though the 2-car units are problematic, because the quieter routes that only need 2 coaches (like the HOWL and Conwy Valley) don't need the 100mph capability.
Or why not:
Dump more HSTs on Cross Country. Voyagers then go to TPE to release the 185's to go to Wales.
Why bother moving the Voyagers? TPE are getting new stock to release 22 of the 185s anyway, which is probably more than enough for hourly Liverpool-Llandudno stoppers, the Cardiff-Cheltenhams and possibly some Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury services in the hours the Birmingham doesn't run. TPE need to retain some 185s for the slower services between Manchester and Leeds (the door layout of the Voyagers is not suitable for trains that make 4-5 stops over that section and the fast services (which do need intercity-style door layout) are getting new trains anyway). If XC were to get additional IC125 sets I think they should use them to cascade Voyagers (after refurbishment to a standard class only layout with window alignment and more legroom) to the Cardiff-Nottingham service and dump the 170s, perhaps to EMT.
However if the successful bidder for EMT bags any of these the W&B Bidder will have their plans scuppered.
I think Wales & Borders is due to be awarded before EMT, so it comes down to whether the bidders for W&B have been instructed to leave certain types of stock available for EMT. Becoming fully compliant with accessibility regulations by 2020 is going to be tight for both EMT and W&B, but maybe with some ex-Anglia 170s for Newark Castle - Matlocks they could offload some 153s. Both franchises will need to wait until they can get new DMUs delivered (2022ish?) before being able to make significant timetable improvements on their diesel routes I expect.
Derogation is for minor infringements, e.g. door buttons slightly outside the max/min height constraints ... it is certainly not for "oh we could not be bothered to meet the deadline"
What about 'we can be bothered and have ordered shiny new bi-mode trains to replace our IC125s, but because our franchise was only just let the factory can't build us our new trains until 2021; we could throw a few 10s of millions at our IC125s to make them compliant but the works are unlikely to have completed the entire fleet until about May 2020'? I'm talking about EMT there because I think it is therorectically possible for the new W&B TOC to get enough 156s and 769s in to replace their Pacers and 153s by the deadline. That does still leave the mark 3s I suppose; again that's a question of throw millions at them or wait six months for mark 4s to go off-lease and problem solved, but a derrogation would be needed for that or it'll be 150s replacing the mark 3s (probably indirectly, but it'll be a long-distance route that'll get the 150s vice 158s or 175s I guess).
In response to the Committee's recommendations, the Welsh Government said that it would "publish a summary of the key requirements the Welsh Government is expecting for future Wales and Borders rail service with sufficient detail to allow the plans to be understood.
So, where is this 'summary of the key requirements'?
