Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[northwichcat]

I think you may have misunderstood. I know the ITT was published after the public consultation was closed. It has been 3 years since then though and many things aren't the same as they were when the ITT was written. Just because there's no obligation to consult on the final plan does that mean it isn't a good idea?

They have consulted but consulted local councils and RUGs opposed to the general public.

 

[Starmill]

I know.

 

[WatcherZero]

A good 6 months of on occasion quite acrimonious consultation.

 

[Starmill]

Acrimonious? What are you talking about? Quite why it all has to take place behind closed doors with no detailed information released to the general public when everyone else seems to managed it I don't know.

 

[Halish Railway]

Have WYPTE got their extra stops at Kirkstall Forge yet or will that be in a later timetable change.

 

[Starmill]

There appears to be no increase in service at Kirkstall Forge.

 

[WatcherZero]

Acrimonious? What are you talking about? Quite why it all has to take place behind closed doors with no detailed information released to the general public when everyone else seems to managed it I don't know.

The meetings between the MP's on the Southport line and Northern.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The meetings between the MP's on the Southport line and Northern.

I went to a promotional event for rail in the North West and some woman was absolutely kicking off about Southport losing its service to Piccadilly saying that people will lose their jobs etc etc etc etc. Mark Carne did not really know what to say, she ended collaring him for a good 15 minutes after the talk too. I did initially sympathise with her but when she said people lose their jobs I just thought, great. She'll be tying herself to the rails next.

Is this why Southport now has two peak extras down the castlefield corridor each way per day?

 

[Philip]

I thought Southport and neighbouring areas were more interested in associating and strengthening links with Liverpool than with Manchester? So it seems a bit rich that people are now kicking off about losing their direct Piccadilly service (not Manchester of course, still the same 2tph with extensions further east).

 

[northwichcat]

I went to a promotional event for rail in the North West and some woman was absolutely kicking off about Southport losing its service to Piccadilly saying that people will lose their jobs etc etc etc etc. Mark Carne did not really know what to say, she ended collaring him for a good 15 minutes after the talk too. I did initially sympathise with her but when she said people lose their jobs I just thought, great. She'll be tying herself to the rails next.

Is this why Southport now has two peak extras down the castlefield corridor each way per day?

It's worth noting from consultation of Victoria-Huddersfield line passengers the majority didn't mind which station in Manchester they had a train to, so I'd be surprised if a clear majority from Southport wanted 1 x direct Piccadilly and 1 x direct Victoria service per hour. I'm sure some people would have benefited from 2tph to Victoria e.g. if the Victoria train leaves at xx:07 and your work place is close to Victoria but you can't make the 17:07 train.

 

[scrapy]

It's worth noting from consultation of Victoria-Huddersfield line passengers the majority didn't mind which station in Manchester they had a train to, so I'd be surprised if a clear majority from Southport wanted 1 x direct Piccadilly and 1 x direct Victoria service per hour. I'm sure some people would have benefited from 2tph to Victoria e.g. if the Victoria train leaves at xx:07 and your work place is close to Victoria but you can't make the 17:07 train.

To be honest I think it's the rail users group along the line who are more bothered about the loss of the Piccadilly service than the average passenger. I witnessed a survey of passengers by the RUG on this line where one woman was asking passengers about their views on the matter. Anyone who disagreed with her was told quite forcibly they were wrong and Southport had to have an airport and Piccadilly connection. It seemed very much that the RUG had their own agenda rather than listening the views of the passengers on the line. The survey seemed to be an exercise to prove their point to Northern and they didn't seem to appreciate people giving their views. It may well be the same woman YorkshireBear witnessed.

Few people from west of Wigan connnect onto Virgin or Cross Country services at Piccadilly as they will change at Wigan instead. Those connecting to TPE services towards West Yorkshire will be better changing at Victoria anyway after May 18.

People affected will mostly be those going towards South Yorkshire/Nottingham who will need 2 changes.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest I think it's the rail users group along the line who are more bothered about the loss of the Piccadilly service than the average passenger. I witnessed a survey of passengers by the RUG on this line where one woman was asking passengers about their views on the matter. Anyone who disagreed with her was told quite forcibly they were wrong and Southport had to have an airport and Piccadilly connection. It seemed very much that the RUG had their own agenda rather than listening the views of the passengers on the line. The survey seemed to be an exercise to prove their point to Northern and they didn't seem to appreciate people giving their views. It may well be the same woman YorkshireBear witnessed.

To an extent that's the same kind of problem with Mid Cheshire. The vast majority of passengers from Lostock Gralam, Plumley, Mobberley, Ashley and Navigation Road travel to the stations which will have 2tph. Journeys like Mobberley to Chester are very rare but it's a journey the chairman makes on occasions. So it seems like a massive fuss has been made over Chester services running semi-fast and Greenbank services being all stops, even when all stations will have a direct peak time service to Chester, when the majority of the regular passengers were happy with the original proposal. Someone claimed it's been changed now - I don't know if that is the case - but if it is I can see it disadvantaging a lot of passengers as one service will probably end up being crowded and the other being half empty.

I know one person who occasionally did use the direct service from Southport to the Airport for business purposes. However, he no longer makes those journeys due to the relocation of a business.

 

[Halish Railway]

Thing is, what place would benefit more from an Airport service - Southport or Bradford that also serves the Calder Valley, Rochdale and Victoria?​

 

[Starmill]

I'd love to know where the idea that services to Piccadilly are an absolute requirement came from. Especially with respect of West Lancashire towns.

If London were where they wanted, you'd think they would campaign for direct London to Southport services? Not entirely infeasible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither really. It’s just a terminus of convenience for services to Piccadilly, which is what they do want.

Sandgrounders will go by car or taxi to Liverpool Airport, Bradford people to LBA.

 

[Starmill]

Journeys like Mobberley to Chester are very rare but it's a journey the chairman makes on occasions. So it seems like a massive fuss has been made over Chester services running semi-fast and Greenbank services being all stops, even when all stations will have a direct peak time service to Chester, when the majority of the regular passengers were happy with the original proposal. Someone claimed it's been changed now - I don't know if that is the case - but if it is I can see it disadvantaging a lot of passengers as one service will probably end up being crowded and the other being half empty.

A similar thing seems to have happened with the Harrogate line Rail User Group. They seem more concerned about people travelling from Poppleton, Cattal and Hammerton to Hornbeam Park, Weeton and Pannal having direct trains than people travelling from Kanaresborough to Leeds having quicker journeys. Crazy.

 

[Halish Railway]

A similar thing seems to have happened with the Harrogate line Rail User Group. They seem more concerned about people travelling from Poppleton, Cattal and Hammerton to Hornbeam Park, Weeton and Pannal having direct trains than people travelling from Kanaresborough to Leeds having quicker journeys. Crazy.

They could worry all they wanted about Knaresborough, the issue is that the Harrogate fasts have to use the same paths as the two-hourly VTEC London service that is only going as far as Harrogate and not Knaresborough. This is according to the Franchise Agreement.

 

[Starmill]

Every eighth train from Harrogate moving to a different franchisee hardly justifies running both services an hour from Knaresborough in the same (very slow) timings as now.

 

[PR1Berske]

I'd love to know where the idea that services to Piccadilly are an absolute requirement came from. Especially with respect of West Lancashire towns.

If London were where they wanted, you'd think they would campaign for direct London to Southport services? Not entirely infeasible.

It is often noticed and discussed here that all railway track leads to Manchester Airport's train station.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, in part the issue wasn't so much the lack of services to Manchester but the loss of existing direct services to the south side of the city centre and the Airport used by the middle class. Remember Southport and the villages along the line while the local visitor economy is deprived is actually quite an affluent commuter town with many mansions in the same way as Cheshire has traditionally been.

 

[Starmill]

It's hard to see what people from Appley Bridge, Burscough and Southport need with direct trains to Manchester Airport. The trains never served anywhere else anyway, that's only 3 stations and it's not that large a population area.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

One of the arguments the group has put forward has been that Southport is a holiday destination and needs the direct link to the Airport to attract tourists and "Chinese businessmen": https://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/...concern-future-southports-rail-links-10876567

 

[Starmill]

How compelling of them.

I particularly like the part where 2 trains an hour taking around an hour to cover 37 miles, using rolling stock that may or may not be only 15 or so years old is described as "world class".

 

[WatcherZero]

It's hard to see what people from Appley Bridge, Burscough and Southport need with direct trains to Manchester Airport. The trains never served anywhere else anyway, that's only 3 stations and it's not that large a population area.

If you have 3 or 4 foreign holidays a year then you want that ease of connection (its been demonstrated even simple same platform interchanges with no change of levels still put off a lot of people with luggage), even if you don't get away quite that often its still aspirational, my parents are using that service there and back at least twice a year at the moment for foreign holidays. The alternative is a very expensive airport minicab. My Aunt and Uncle using a similar Birmingham suburban rail service with easy interchange are doing 5 foreign holidays a year (they love camping and mountain climbing).

 

[Ianno87]

One of the arguments the group has put forward has been that Southport is a holiday destination and needs the direct link to the Airport to attract tourists and "Chinese businessmen": https://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/...concern-future-southports-rail-links-10876567

I'm sure you can barely turn a corner in Guangzhou without seeing another advert for Southport Pleasureland or Ken Dodd at the Floral Hall. Who does "business" in Southport exactly?

Southport-Airport services will have lasted exactly 20 years from when they were introduced - May 98. I simply don't believe that for most existing passengers, a same platform interchange at Salford Crescent won't be an acceptable alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

I doubt I have as much economic clout as a Chinese businessman, however I have on occasion found the connection from the Southport line to Oxford Road quite useful for onward connections.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Also I have never seen the Southport service leave Piccadilly to the airport anything other than deserted even at peak times.

 

[Ianno87]

I doubt I have as much economic clout as a Chinese businessman, however I have on occasion found the connection from the Southport line to Oxford Road quite useful for onward connections.

As discuss, most Yorkshire-bound connections will be moving to Victoria anyway.

London/Birmingham/Scotland you change at Wigan (unless you wanted a single change onto a Bristol/Bournemouth XC).

Admittedly, you do lose a single change to Sheffield/Nottingham etc.

Depends whats more important - a minority of long distance travellers, or the majority of regular Manchester bound travellers who might prefer consistency of services at Victoria/Salford Central.

 

[Ianno87]

I doubt I have as much economic clout as a Chinese businessman, however I have on occasion found the connection from the Southport line to Oxford Road quite useful for onward connections.

As discuss, most Yorkshire-bound connections will be moving to Victoria anyway.

London/Birmingham/Scotland you change at Wigan (unless you wanted a single change onto a Bristol/Bournemouth XC).

Admittedly, you do lose a single change to Sheffield/Nottingham etc.

Depends whats more important - a minority of long distance travellers, or the majority of regular Manchester bound travellers who might prefer consistency of services at Victoria/Salford Central.

 

[Philip]

If you have 3 or 4 foreign holidays a year then you want that ease of connection (its been demonstrated even simple same platform interchanges with no change of levels still put off a lot of people with luggage), even if you don't get away quite that often its still aspirational, my parents are using that service there and back at least twice a year at the moment for foreign holidays. The alternative is a very expensive airport minicab. My Aunt and Uncle using a similar Birmingham suburban rail service with easy interchange are doing 5 foreign holidays a year (they love camping and mountain climbing).

Chester is a tourist destination too (not to mention further west) and that will be losing its own Airport service which it's only had for a handful of years, compared to the 20 years for the Southport. As stated above a very straightforward change at Salford Crescent can be made for Airport and Piccadilly passengers.