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Major Disruption At Nottingham Due To Fire (12/01)

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Robertj21a

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I'm at a loss to imagine what could be regarded as combustible material in a toilet (except loo paper) Also, a fairly new toilet should surely consist of mostly non-flammable materials which you'd think would be very difficult to ignite.
Even if paper was used, it must have taken a while to set light to any interior fittings - and why weren't any smoke alarms activated?

As it's being treated as arson, you have to wonder if combustible materials were taken in deliberately. It was also in the ladies toilet - you never know what goes on in there !
 
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eastdyke

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I'm at a loss to imagine what could be regarded as combustible material in a toilet (except loo paper) Also, a fairly new toilet should surely consist of mostly non-flammable materials which you'd think would be very difficult to ignite.
Even if paper was used, it must have taken a while to set light to any interior fittings - and why weren't any smoke alarms activated?
A poster up-thread relates details of observed possible nefarious activity in the toilets late one evening.
The fact that BTP indicated at an early stage that Arson was suspected (rather than simply 'ongoing investigations') suggests to me that remains, at least, of imported items were found.
Unfortunately, in common with other towns and cities of this country, there is a substantial community of rough sleepers in Nottingham (I have seen figures of over 200 quoted).
I had assumed, obviously wrongly, that the pay to enter toilets were attended. That has been my experience in other station pay to enter toilets, that said these are only rather small facilities.
It seems to me that security arrangements at Nottingham Station will likely be under close scrutiny.
 
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Kettledrum

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What's one of the really disappointing things here, is that this area in the station had a very expensive refurbishment, but this does not appear to have included sprinklers or even smoke alarms.
 

edwin_m

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And the ticket machines on the main concourse are fixed

https://twitter.com/EMTrains/status/952988953573027840
That's good news. I wasn't looking forward to trying to explain to the barrier staff (if any) at New Street on Wednesday why I didn't have my return from Derby, it being a the second part of a split from Nottingham. Or having to set out earlier to collect the second ticket at Derby.

I'm at a loss to imagine what could be regarded as combustible material in a toilet (except loo paper) Also, a fairly new toilet should surely consist of mostly non-flammable materials which you'd think would be very difficult to ignite.
Even if paper was used, it must have taken a while to set light to any interior fittings - and why weren't any smoke alarms activated?
If it's arson then it's possible the person responsible brought in some flammable material. I think I read a witness quoted as saying a fire alarm was going off, which might help explain how everyone got out safely. But with hindsight sprinklers in the toilets might have been a good idea.
 

MCSHF007

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If 'undesirables' (sorry) effectively had unrestricted access to the toilets, and (as reported upthread) these people could smoke unchallenged in the cubicles It doesn't seem that surprising that this has occurred. Hopefully revised arrangements will be in place once the affected areas fully reopen.
 

Raul_Duke

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So now we’ve decied it must have been an ‘undesirable,’ rough sleeper,’ can we move on and solve some other mysteries based on three paragraphs we’ve read online?
 

Bletchleyite

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Regarding Internet connections for things its normally got to be to a certain standard so that its less prone to crashing, also it may have to be encrypted in a certain way to stop people hacking into it.

I'm not convinced that the risks posed by people hacking into the PIS are any greater than making it display a silly message.
 

edwin_m

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Based on a quick walk round the upstairs areas this morning:

It is all open except for the part of the main bridge leading to stairs and lift for platform 7 (south of the P4-6 accesses), the ticket office itself and the outer concourse south of the accesses to the ticket hall. Most of the ticket machines, all the collection machines and part of the main information display above the barriers are working but no other train information in the upstairs part. Bus departure screens and a safety animation screen on the main bridge are working. Automatic doors are stuck open (except when leading to closed areas) so it's pretty cold and draughty but I suppose that will help to clear the residual smell of smoke. Lots of staff around, wrapped in coats and scarves, either roaming the hall or behind a table selling tickets.

The Co-op is open but taking cash only. It looked as if Costa Coffee might be in the course of re-opening. Tesco across the road is closed until the 23rd for refurbishment. No other retail is available upstairs.
 

HowardGWR

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That's good news. I wasn't looking forward to trying to explain to the barrier staff (if any) at New Street on Wednesday why I didn't have my return from Derby, it being a the second part of a split from Nottingham. Or having to set out earlier to collect the second ticket at Derby.
Could you not buy your split tickets from the guard on each train? Come to think of it, could you not buy both of them from the first guard? I don't know if they have barriers at Nottingham and Derby.
 

edwin_m

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Could you not buy your split tickets from the guard on each train? Come to think of it, could you not buy both of them from the first guard? I don't know if they have barriers at Nottingham and Derby.

Barriers installed at both Nottingham and Derby.
They were already ordered online before the fire (employer insists we use their system, and I wanted to book a seat). I called in this morning and enough of the IT was working to let me collect them so the problem is solved.
 

duffield

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The Co-op is open but taking cash only. It looked as if Costa Coffee might be in the course of re-opening. Tesco across the road is closed until the 23rd for refurbishment. No other retail is available upstairs.

If you can't get what you want at the co-op or need to pay by card, there's also Sainsbury's about 1 minute walk away on Carrington St. towards town.
 

kevjs

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The Co-op is open but taking cash only. It looked as if Costa Coffee might be in the course of re-opening. Tesco across the road is closed until the 23rd for refurbishment. No other retail is available upstairs.
No sign of the co-op (self service tills) taking cash only this lunch time. Smelt very singed though!

Europacar appeared to be open and the setdown/pickup point is in use (although not exactly near an entrance now). A few people trying those entrances as I went past (nothing obviously wrong inside apart from some sagging fire/police tape). Couple of generators outside the front of the station wedging one of the automatic doors open.
 

eastdyke

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The BBC has today (Jan 16) updated its News Story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-42688280
Extract:
A member of staff told the BBC they had seen smoke coming from a sanitary bin in the toilets.
British Transport Police said the cause of the fire was still under investigation but officers believe it was "arson of some description" and an electrical fault has been ruled out.

Police say they have gathered "initial evidence" which suggests the fire was arson but they cannot release further information for operational reasons.
No arrests have yet been made yet but British Transport Police is examining CCTV footage to see who was in the area at the time of the fire.
Officers have already spoken to several witnesses and are keen to speak to any other witnesses who have not yet come forward.
Note the latest phraseology: "arson of some description".
 

edwin_m

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No sign of the co-op (self service tills) taking cash only this lunch time. Smelt very singed though!
Must have fixed it since I passed by around 0900 then, when the hand-written signs on the door said they included the self service tills. The smell may be related to the hot sausage rolls.
 

kevjs

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Must have fixed it since I passed by around 0900 then, when the hand-written signs on the door said they included the self service tills. The smell may be related to the hot sausage rolls.
The smell was apparent well before I got into the store and stronger in the waiting area - singed licorice is probably the best description. Could have course be OTT application of air freshener I guess!
 

LowLevel

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The whole station stinks of burnt plastic depending on how the wind is blowing and I'd expect that to last a while - it's not nice!
 

30907

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What's one of the really disappointing things here, is that this area in the station had a very expensive refurbishment, but this does not appear to have included sprinklers or even smoke alarms.

Answered upthread. Ineffective in big spaces.
 

thenorthern

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Someone from Nottingham Fire and Rescue has commented that he doesn't believe the station had a sprinkler system and that if it did so the fire would have been contained and out within an hour.
 

eastdyke

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Someone from Nottingham Fire and Rescue has commented that he doesn't believe the station had a sprinkler system and that if it did so the fire would have been contained and out within an hour.
Reported by the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-42710158
Extract:
Incident commander Bryn Coleman said sprinklers could have halted the rapid spread of the blaze and limited the damage caused.
Network Rail said it was "inappropriate to comment" during investigations.

Mr Coleman, of Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue, told the BBC: "There were no sprinklers going off and I don't believe that there are any sprinklers in the building.
"If it had been a fire contained to the toilet block you would be looking at probably an hour for a single room fire.

"The damage would have been less, the impact to the wider community would have been less because we wouldn't have had to close the rail station, the roads wouldn't have been closed, and we probably would have dealt with it with two fire appliances."

Sure, but in just which bits of a Station do you fit sprinklers?
 

John Webb

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Reported by the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-42710158
..........
Sure, but in just which bits of a Station do you fit sprinklers?
Those areas where they will be effective - typically the offices, shops and other relatively low ceiling areas (including toilets) where the system will not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
When visiting supermarkets, most of which are sprinklered, you will see that the toilets there are also fitted with sprinklers, although the fire load is minimal. This is because the insurers insist that the whole building is protected - this ensures that if a malicious fire is started in the toilets it won't get out of hand before spreading to the rest of the shop.
But such incidents are very rare in my experience.
 

Dai Corner

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Those areas where they will be effective - typically the offices, shops and other relatively low ceiling areas (including toilets) where the system will not be exposed to freezing temperatures.
When visiting supermarkets, most of which are sprinklered, you will see that the toilets there are also fitted with sprinklers, although the fire load is minimal. This is because the insurers insist that the whole building is protected - this ensures that if a malicious fire is started in the toilets it won't get out of hand before spreading to the rest of the shop.
But such incidents are very rare in my experience.

I'm guessing that Network Rail self-insure?
 

John Webb

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I'm guessing that Network Rail self-insure?
As a retired (scientific) civil servant, I am aware that all Government departments are self-insured, and I suspect Network Rail continue that tradition. I'd be interested to know if the TOCs carry their own insurance for damage to stations they operate etc. - no doubt they would carry at least public liability insurance.
 

IanXC

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As a retired (scientific) civil servant, I am aware that all Government departments are self-insured, and I suspect Network Rail continue that tradition. I'd be interested to know if the TOCs carry their own insurance for damage to stations they operate etc. - no doubt they would carry at least public liability insurance.

I'd take a punt they are more likely to insure, following their days as Railtrack - who I strongly doubt would have self insured.
 

AY1975

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No sign of the co-op (self service tills) taking cash only this lunch time. Smelt very singed though!

Europacar appeared to be open and the setdown/pickup point is in use (although not exactly near an entrance now). A few people trying those entrances as I went past (nothing obviously wrong inside apart from some sagging fire/police tape). Couple of generators outside the front of the station wedging one of the automatic doors open.

What about the new micropub on the station?
 

Wivenswold

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Network Rail almost certainly have specialised insurance for certain eventualities such as what are known as "Catastrophe losses" (huge multi-million pound incidents), public liability and Directors & Officers liability. The rest is probably self-insured or they have a self-insuring element by taking a large policy excess, say £1,000,000 for each event. But that would probably only be for liabilities to other parties.

But in 20 years of coming up against Network Rail and Railtrack in claims litigation cases, I've never been made aware that there's an insurer in the background. Even on their largest commercial loss, the Denham tunnel collapse.
 

Wivenswold

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Network Rail almost certainly have specialised insurance for certain eventualities such as what are known as "Catastrophe losses" (huge multi-million pound incidents), public liability and Directors & Officers liability. The rest is probably self-insured or they have a self-insuring element by taking a large policy excess, say £1,000,000 for each event. But that would probably only be for liabilities to other parties.

But in 20 years of coming up against Network Rail and Railtrack in claims litigation cases, I've never been made aware that there's an insurer in the background. Even on their largest commercial loss, the Denham tunnel collapse.

And in response to the burning smell, yes, it's very unpleasant. I remember it from when Kings Cross Underground reopened in the days following the fire, a horrible reminder of the lives lost in that claustrophobic ticket office.
 

kevjs

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Where is this pub? I hadn't noticed it.
Opened about a month ago in the old police cabin (I think) - at the junction of the Southern Relief Road and Carrington Street

beerheadz.jpg


The tiny green and white building adjacent to the (currently closed) side entrance.
 
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