Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[lammergeier]

For interest how long is the short conversation course which hopefully allows the driver to actually drive one. Presumably if required a full course takes much longer.
Have any units been accepted and owned by Scotrail yet?
K

I'm sorry I don't work for SR so I can't answer your questions specifically.

My point was just a general one - based on what I know in other companies I would expect the conversion course to be between one and three days due to them both being EMU's and having a similar functioning brake.

Full traction courses tend to be longer, for example three weeks for a voyager and three weeks HST. Because of the significant differences between the traction, drivers here cannot learn one then convert to the other.

 

[scotraildriver]

For interest how long is the short conversation course which hopefully allows the driver to actually drive one. Presumably if required a full course takes much longer.
Have any units been accepted and owned by Scotrail yet?
K

It is a 3 day course and start this Monday so not long now until we can actually drive them.

 

[InOban]

ASLEF have raised again the issue of signal visibility

 

[XC90]

From day 1 when these ridiculous connecting doors were decided to be added to the original, perfectly designed class 385, I said the view would be restricted. Why has it taken years for this now to be looked at? Delays to itroduction and expensive modifications now expected.

1 guy at Transport Scotland wanted these doors. I assume their will be no accountability for this damaging decision.

 

[InOban]

On the contrary, multiple units should always have through connections to allow staff, whether revenue protection or catering, access to the whole train. I know they don't look elegant, but that's not the point.

 

[Fincra5]

On the contrary, multiple units should always have through connections to allow staff, whether revenue protection or catering, access to the whole train. I know they don't look elegant, but that's not the point.

Thing is, a 377 for example offers quite good visibility for gangway fitted stock. So how come these designers manage to make it worse? Form over Function perhaps?

 

[Rail Blues]

On the contrary, multiple units should always have through connections to allow staff, whether revenue protection or catering, access to the whole train. I know they don't look elegant, but that's not the point.

It isn't an issue of elegance, it is an issue of the driver not being to undertake a safety critical job properly due to appalling visibility due to corridor connections. I hope Transport Scotland are rewarded for their pig headedness with strike action by ASLEF members.

 

[Clansman]

Thing is, a 377 for example offers quite good visibility for gangway fitted stock. So how come these designers manage to make it worse? Form over Function perhaps?

385s have slightly longer gangways and curved windows, which distort signals at certain angles as a result.

 

[XC90]

Is there a reason they can't retract like the 380's?

 

[scotraildriver]

Is there a reason they can't retract like the 380's?

Should just have ordered more 380's full stop. Slightly better intetiors no testing no issues little training.. .

 

[100andthirty]

Is there a reason they can't retract like the 380's?

In simple terms, they can't retract because they're not designed to do so. All things are possible, it's just a matter of how much time trouble and cost that people will tolerate to fix it. All the requirements of cab fronts - crash worthiness elements, gangways, cab controls and displays, and windscreens interact with each other. This means that if you want to change any one part it might affect all the others.

 

[Macwomble]

Should just have ordered more 380's full stop. Slightly better intetiors no testing no issues little training.. .

I'd agree 100%.

 

[Agent_Squash]

There's no political 'made in Britain' if they order more 380s, though...

 

[Highlandspring]

385s have slightly longer gangways and curved windows, which distort signals at certain angles as a result.

Although the windscreen is an odd shape and set at an angle, the suface of the glass itself is actually flat (this doesn't come across well in photos but is readily apparent when looking at the real thing). The concerns raised by ASLEF may or may not be valid but unless you've physically sat in the driving position (again photos don't tell the whole story) I don't think you - or most posters here - are really able to give informed comment on the issue.

 

[lammergeier]

Should just have ordered more 380's full stop. Slightly better intetiors no testing no issues little training.. .

Genuine question, does the 380 design meet accident regs still?

 

[Bletchleyite]

From day 1 when these ridiculous connecting doors were decided to be added to the original, perfectly designed class 385, I said the view would be restricted. Why has it taken years for this now to be looked at? Delays to itroduction and expensive modifications now expected.

1 guy at Transport Scotland wanted these doors. I assume their will be no accountability for this damaging decision.

Gangways are a very sensible thing to provide on EMUs and DMUs intended to work in multiple. That Hitachi, unlike Bombardier and Siemens, are incapable of properly designing a unit with them, simply reflects on their capabilities, not on gangways themselves.

There is nothing ridiculous about them. They have many benefits - only one trolley needed, the guard/OBS/whatever being able to access the whole train while it is moving, the ability to walk through to the loo in the other half if out of order in one half, more effective portion working as people can switch portions on the move and so on. They only have no benefits on trains not intended to work in multiple.

The Class 385 is not "perfectly designed" in any case. My observation is that, from the passenger's perspective, it is pretty mediocre compared with the alternatives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Genuine question, does the 380 design meet accident regs still?

Even if it doesn't I'm certain Siemens will also have bid a Desiro type offering, it just presumably wasn't cheapest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't an issue of elegance, it is an issue of the driver not being to undertake a safety critical job properly due to appalling visibility due to corridor connections. I hope Transport Scotland are rewarded for their pig headedness with strike action by ASLEF members.

That's because Hitachi can't design a gangway cab, not because gangway cabs are bad.

If the design was not acceptable, the Hitachi bid should have been rejected.

 

[Steamysandy]

Hitachi have designed and built many trains for Japanese Railways before this time.I get the impression that the idea was to follow the 380 basic outline using Hitachi's A train design system.That they can design a corridor driving coach can be seen in the Japanese Railways ClassE257 multiple units which have been in service since about 2002.I personally think these are very attractive trains.
To my mind the 385 looks as if they've stuck a wardrobe on the driving end and downgraded the original purpose of the coach end- namely to lead the train and let the driver see the line where he's going!

 

[Clansman]

Although the windscreen is an odd shape and set at an angle, the suface of the glass itself is actually flat (this doesn't come across well in photos but is readily apparent when looking at the real thing). The concerns raised by ASLEF may or may not be valid but unless you've physically sat in the driving position (again photos don't tell the whole story) I don't think you - or most posters here - are really able to give informed comment on the issue.

I can't comment from personal experience but I can comment based on what I've been told. It'd be plain stupid to make such an assumption based on pictures and videos.

 

[Highlandspring]

Indeed it would. The comment about the windscreen being curved was factually incorrect. For the record I have actually sat in the driving position of 385102.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can't comment from personal experience but I can comment based on what I've been told. It'd be plain stupid to make such an assumption based on pictures and videos.

From what I recall years ago (A'Level Physics) light entering a flat piece of glass will get refracted if the glass is not perpendicular to the direction the light is travelling in. That refraction is reversed as the light leaves the glass but by then each wavelength (colour) will no longer be in line. The further the sheet of glass is tilted away from perpendicular to the direction the light is travelling the worse that separation becomes. It also gets worse as the glass gets thicker. So the perfectly smooth and flat glass will cause all sorts of "effects" once it is no longer vertical !.

I think my opinion of the front of the 385s is that way hay its a sexy front end and aerodynamic but then some one stuck that "wardrobe" in the middle of it. I agree there should be a gangway connection but the cab should be designed around it correctly.

 

[jopsuk]

The JR units have the advantage of being about 25cm wider- that's pretty significant when you're trying to fit in drivers cab and gangway.

 

[InOban]

I trust that the decision whether they are safe to operate is up to the ORR, not ASLEF.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Should just have ordered more 380's full stop. Slightly better intetiors no testing no issues little training.. .

Abellio ordered the Hitachi trains. They initiated the procurement process before they had even won the franchise, out of a desire to get the trains delivered ASAP. All Transport Scotland did was outline the E&G rolling stock requirements in the ScotRail ITT, and then find that Abellio's bid scored the highest out of any bidder. There was no specific decision made to pick Hitachi trains at all. Hitachi knew the EGIP order would be a good starting point for their AT200 - they even used Queen Street as a backdrop for the generic product photos.

 

[Domh245]

I trust that the decision whether they are safe to operate is up to the ORR, not ASLEF.

The ORR will approve the trains for passenger service, but it is a possibility that ASLEF will tell their drivers not to work it if they see issues with it and they don't see action being taken about it.

 

[Fincra5]

385s have slightly longer gangways and curved windows, which distort signals at certain angles as a result.

Exactly. Why design a train like that with Zero consideration for drivers visibility ?

 

[InOban]

But another poster states that the window isn't curved.

 

[James James]

From what I recall years ago (A'Level Physics) light entering a flat piece of glass will get refracted if the glass is not perpendicular to the direction the light is travelling in. That refraction is reversed as the light leaves the glass but by then each wavelength (colour) will no longer be in line. The further the sheet of glass is tilted away from perpendicular to the direction the light is travelling the worse that separation becomes. It also gets worse as the glass gets thicker. So the perfectly smooth and flat glass will cause all sorts of "effects" once it is no longer vertical !.

This would make perfect sense... if signals were all at eye level for the driver.

 

[100andthirty]

The ORR will approve the trains for passenger service, but it is a possibility that ASLEF will tell their drivers not to work it if they see issues with it and they don't see action being taken about it.

The ORR will indeed authorise the trains for service. Part of the evidence they will consider in deciding whether to authorise is that the operator has carried out suitable and sufficient risk assessment and it has properly consulted with all affected stakeholders. The train driver community is one group of stakeholders. It is normal to assess signal sighting when new trains of a different design are purchased. This is a formal process which union health and safety representatives take seriously and professionally. Moreover, TOCs respect the process.

As an aside, all the photos I've seen of the class 385 cabs suggest to me that the windscreens are curved based on images with reflections from many angles.