Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[whhistle]

To be fair on the BBC, many of "us" don't understand the pressure they're under to get the news out there as quick as possible.

Of course there are mistakes... that's what you get when you're beaming live to millions of people around the world and the time to get things out there is crucial.

I mean, have you ever seen those "reports" that simply say "we're getting reports of an explosion in XXX. We'll have more details soon" <-- what the hell is that? Next to no information, nearly no point in saying it, but that's what you get with modern day journalism.

 

[nedchester]

I don’t think some people really understand that a passenger railway is transporting humans, not inert robots.

Three hours, yards from a station, is bound to cheese some people off. Three hours with no toilets is going to result in someone needing to go. At three hours with no light or heat in this weather, on an apparently crowded train, it's a miracle there were no major medical emergencies. I've seen one report on Twitter from a lady who used a towel to hide the fact she was having a panic attack from other passengers (because hysteria is contagious.)

It's all well and good to say "it's dangerous" and "it's illegal," but if they think they might be in for an overnight stay on a packed train with no toilets or heat a la the New Forest incident, can you blame them? Especially if they were told the power was off because people were walking on the tracks - meaning they knew it was safe?

I know I sound like a stuck record but this keeps happening, and the relevant parties need to get their acts together and understand that in situations like this, people will self-evacuate.

Exactly.

Don't blame them one bit. In fact I would be tempted to do the same after a similar period of time. Legality doesn't come into it.

 

[Daz28]

Does the policy of switching off the juice until it can be proven that all trespassers are off the tracks lead to more people choosing to take the risk? Although it would be deemed unacceptable in our safety first culture today, perhaps a policy of carry on regardless unless there is direct evidence that someone is at risk would lead to less disruption?

Back in the slam door days, we didn’t have central locking, we didn’t have PAs, or PIS, or indeed the ability to move to the next carriage on some of the stock in SE land. I don’t recall passengers self-exiting causing much of an issue, even though there were plenty of examples of drunks getting off the train and not realising they weren’t at a station.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

I don’t think some people really understand that a passenger railway is transporting humans, not inert robots.

Indeed... I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have de-trained with the other passengers on that train given the opportunity.

 

[Skymonster]

I don’t think some people really understand that a passenger railway is transporting humans, not inert robots.

Three hours, yards from a station, is bound to cheese some people off.

the relevant parties need to get their acts together and understand that in situations like this, people will self-evacuate.

Yep, if this report of the train being just yards from a station is accurate, I have no doubt I'd have bailed had I been there. Forget all this hiding behind claptrap like the station staff not being PTS trained - you train them because it might just be vital in situations like this. Every time this sort of thing happens, I end up thinking - why the heck does it always seem like our railway run for the benefit of the railway, and not for the benefit of the customers.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Years ago I partook in a passenger mutiny on a Gospel Oak-Barking train that was terminated one station short of Barking at Woodgrange Park because of a signal failure. No replacement bus offered and no suggestions from the staff as to how we were going to get home. (The old BR wasn't always a paragon of customer service by any means.)

Also the road geography of the area meant that walking to Barking by road would have been several miles and of course in those pre-mobile area none of us would have had the faintest idea where to go. So a load of us stomped down the end of the platform and down the track. BR and London Underground had to turn the power off; caused chaos. Looking back, it was a pretty foolhardy thing to do but we were incensed.

 

[theageofthetra]

In the Lewisham fiasco if a controlled evacuation had been organised early the rear of the train would have been very close to a Network Rail access point with easy road access and a large marshalling area. Its right next to the entrance of St Johns station.

I think there is even that tufftrak stuff in the four and six foot where RRV's can get track access.

Much safer than them walking over numerous lines/points at Lewisham junction.

 

[Tom B]

The issue surrounding how many staff required, training etc is all in the hands of the management of the railway. If they choose to not train station attendants in trackside safety etc, they are setting themselves up for this situation. It's entirely understandable that after 3 hours, without lighting, heating, toilet or catering, and an absence of information, people would evacuate themselves.

I believe that LUL staff are trained to perform an evacuation without waiting for the BTP etc and I seem to recall there is a threshold (45 mins?) at which an evacuation automatically begins.

 

[Kettledrum]

Shouldn't this be regarded as a "near miss" in terms of the serious consequences that could have happened if the electrification had been live?

There may be lessons that could potentially be learnt from this:

- The need for better battery back up?
- The need for more reliable communication systems on trains?
- The need for better training for station staff on train evacuation?
- The need for safer train evacuation plans?
- The wisdom of DOO?
- The wisdom of having trains with no toilets?

I could go on. It was entirely forseeable that passengers would try and evacuate just yards from the station in these circumstances, yet instead of apologies from the train company for putting their passengers in this situation, they accuse the passengers of being criminals for trespassing on the line.

 

[theironroad]

Yep, if this report of the train being just yards from a station is accurate, I have no doubt I'd have bailed had I been there. Forget all this hiding behind claptrap like the station staff not being PTS trained - you train them because it might just be vital in situations like this. Every time this sort of thing happens, I end up thinking - why the heck does it always seem like our railway run for the benefit of the railway, and not for the benefit of the customers.

Part of the issue with pts trained staff is that in means they have to be trained, regularly assessed, have to meet medical standards and be provided with the correct PPE (personal protective equipment). This all adds £££ which a toc won't want to spend for non regular use.

 

[ComUtoR]

I could go on. It was entirely forseeable that passengers would try and evacuate just yards from the station in these circumstances, yet instead of apologies from the train company for putting their passengers in this situation, they accuse the passengers of being criminals for trespassing on the line.

The second they stepped onto the track they were trespassing. No if, and or buts, 100% trespass. Not only did they endanger their own lives, they put the lives of others at risk and caused further delays to other services, instigated a need to turn off the power which then affected other units and other passengers and just created more chaos. Selfish [expletive deleted].

 

[theironroad]

Shouldn't this be regarded as a "near miss" in terms of the serious consequences that could have happened if the electrification had been live?

There may be lessons that could potentially be learnt from this:

- The need for better battery back up?
- The need for more reliable communication systems on trains?
- The need for better training for station staff on train evacuation?
- The need for safer train evacuation plans?
- The wisdom of DOO?
- The wisdom of having trains with no toilets?

I could go on. It was entirely forseeable that passengers would try and evacuate just yards from the station in these circumstances, yet instead of apologies from the train company for putting their passengers in this situation, they accuse the passengers of being criminals for trespassing on the line.

I think they have apologised.

The hard line trespasser stuff they've being putting out is probably to try to deter future similar incidents. Nobody wants the public to think that it's ok to start wandering around busy lines open to traffic and 3rd rail electrified. It also just creates more chaos as the electrical supply cannot be recharged until the police etc are certain every last person is off the track.

 

[John Bray]

The BBC story has pictures shows the end of one train 20m from the platform. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43266245. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ks-halting-all-trains-amid-snow-a3780496.html shows the level of crowding in the trains, very different to in Hampshire when there were 100 passengers in a 5 carriage train.
The trains have toilets, I hope the issue wasn't that they couldn't be used without power, because that would be bad design, and a full bladder would be the most pressing reason why I'd want to detrain.

 

[theironroad]

The BBC story has pictures shows the end of one train 20m from the platform. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43266245. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ks-halting-all-trains-amid-snow-a3780496.html shows the level of crowding in the trains, very different to in Hampshire when there were 100 passengers in a 5 carriage train.
The trains have toilets, I hope the issue wasn't that they couldn't be used without power, because that would be bad design, and a full bladder would be the most pressing reason why I'd want to detrain.

The New forest trains toilets stopped working when power was lost to the train. They need power to flush and refill. The CET tanks may have been full as well and the fresh water tanks empty after being in use so long.

 

[Lucan]

Clearly this was exceptionally dangerous with the live rail. It's easy to blame the passengers for their stupidity and putting their lives at risk

I think that the only possible stupidity is not knowing what the live rail is, unless you are senile or a child. Don't schools teach kids about railway safety? It would be better if the passengers (not "trespassers" please, as Southeastern Railway called them) were instructed to walk only ahead of the train and to keep within the four foot.

 

[HainultLoop]

I don't think you can blame them. 3 hours on an overcrowded train with no toilets, no information and just metres from a station, I would be hard pressed to not want to evacuate. It was illegal, it was dangerous, but seriously? Three hours! Whether it was possible to give information or not doesn't come into play - they weren't receiving it. The fact that they made absolutely no effort to get the people off the train, to help them until they chose to do so themselves should be a lesson learnt for the TOC and all involved. Has there actually been an apology? As you say, Via Bank, they are transporting humans, not robots.

 

[The Box Photter]

The second they stepped onto the track they were trespassing. No if, and or buts, 100% trespass. Not only did they endanger their own lives, they put the lives of others at risk and caused further delays to other services, instigated a need to turn off the power which then affected other units and other passengers and just created more chaos. Selfish [expletive deleted].

I think the railway needs to realise that today's passenger isn't the timid bowler-hatted wearing person they used to carry around in the 1930s anymore. BTP have no chance of policing such incidents and the FCC Dock Junction mass detraining fiasco from a few years ago (which resulted in the TOC being severely censured by the RAIB) ought to inform all TOCs that they need to step up their game during periods of disruption and bad weather. People today EXPECT to be kept informed about delays, not ignored as so much self-loading freight.

Had I been in the same position, I'd have got off the train and walked the the station. There needs to be a complete re-think about how the railway is run. It should be run for the benefit of the paying passenger, not as some massive private train set for the operators. The default position ought to be to run the trains, not throw in the towel as soon as a few flakes of snow are forecast. The trains need to be robust enough to operate under climatic conditions MUCH worse than we've experienced over tha past few days. Modern trains are just too fragile, with over-engineered electronic control systems and flimsy door mechanisms. I'm not advocating a return to slam-door stock, but during the 1987 snow at least the SR was able to drag 4-VEP and 4-SUB units using diesel trains so that passengers weren't stranded with no heat, light or toilets for 12 hours. Nowadays, there seems to be no desire to think outside the box and pre-station rescue locos at strategic points when bad weather is forecast. Even if they did, they'd struggle to couple the loco to the failed unit and "modern" H&S would probably mean the train couldn't be hauled whilst carrying passengers.

Someone in power should get a grip.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that the only possible stupidity is not knowing what the live rail is, unless you are senile or a child. Don't schools teach kids about railway safety?

Not everybody is conversant with the railway. I would suggest that most passengers simply do not care or even notice what the infrastructure is like or what it does.

I have two children and neither had any railway safety given to them. Why would they ? Even the school trip briefing only mentioned to keep behind the yellow line.

It would be better if the passengers (not "trespassers" please, as Southeastern Railway called them)

Passengers are on board, trespassers are on the track. Lets not lie or hide behind forum rhetoric. They were trespassing.

were instructed to walk only ahead of the train and to keep within the four foot.

Which would be unsafe and against the basic rules of PTS. That is the danger with those who are untrained. Walking in the four foot is wrong.

 

[theageofthetra]

The BBC story has pictures shows the end of one train 20m from the platform. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43266245. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ks-halting-all-trains-amid-snow-a3780496.html shows the level of crowding in the trains, very different to in Hampshire when there were 100 passengers in a 5 carriage train.
The trains have toilets, I hope the issue wasn't that they couldn't be used without power, because that would be bad design, and a full bladder would be the most pressing reason why I'd want to detrain.

Many are not working as they can't be tanked due to frozen pipes and other issues

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't think you can blame them. 3 hours on an overcrowded train with no toilets, no information and just metres from a station, I would be hard pressed to not want to evacuate. It was illegal, it was dangerous, but seriously? Three hours! Whether it was possible to give information or not doesn't come into play - they weren't receiving it. The fact that they made absolutely no effort to get the people off the train, to help them until they chose to do so themselves should be a lesson learnt for the TOC and all involved. Has there actually been an apology? As you say, Via Bank, they are transporting humans, not robots.

The three hours came after the evacuation as has been mentioned previously.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But what else could be done? It's stuck, in foul weather on congested infrastructure, so there's little chance of anything turning up to give it a push. As for getting pax off, this was I presume a DOO train? A small team of people are required to safely evacuate a loaded train, the Driver can't do it on his own. Indeed Driver and Guard is still pushing it for a controlled situation. Station staff are usually not PTS, and they certainly won't have been trained for a lineside evacuation, so despite their proximity in this case, they're not much good. So you're looking at NR staff, on-call managers, BTP etc, and of course they're all already running around like the proverbial chickens. So, what can you do really?!

Train the station staff to evacuate trains when it comes to it?

Part of the issue with pts trained staff is that in means they have to be trained, regularly assessed, have to meet medical standards and be provided with the correct PPE (personal protective equipment). This all adds £££ which a toc won't want to spend for non regular use.

LU do it; how often do you hear of people being stuck on a train for plural hours on the tube?

 

[theageofthetra]

I think that the only possible stupidity is not knowing what the live rail is, unless you are senile or a child. Don't schools teach kids about railway safety? It would be better if the passengers (not "trespassers" please, as Southeastern Railway called them) were instructed to walk only ahead of the train and to keep within the four foot.

Clearly not. Had three ultra low IQ 'youths' sitting with their legs hanging over the edge of a platform with a 90mph linespeed the other day.

Bring back the old Peter Purves BR rail safety film that was shown in my school I say!

 

[ComUtoR]

Had I been in the same position, I'd have got off the train and walked the the station.

Then you would be in the wrong. Are you advocating that passengers should be allowed to self evacuate onto the the track whenever they feel ? Are you also justifying that it is acceptable to ignore the TOCs instruction and justifying trespass ? Are you happy to accept the responsibility when someone dies or gets juiced up ?

There needs to be a complete re-think about how the railway is run. It should be run for the benefit of the paying passenger, not as some massive private train set for the operators.

I would agree. What would you suggest is the right approach and is allowing self evacuation really a benefit to the passenger ?

 

[theageofthetra]

Train the station staff to evacuate trains when it comes to it?

LU do it; how often do you hear of people being stuck on a train for plural hours on the tube?

Exactly its cost driven.

 

[The Box Photter]

Then you would be in the wrong. Are you advocating that passengers should be allowed to self evacuate onto the the track whenever they feel ? Are you also justifying that it is acceptable to ignore the TOCs instruction and justifying trespass ? Are you happy to accept the responsibility when someone dies or gets juiced up ?


I would agree. What would you suggest is the right approach and is allowing self evacuation really a benefit to the passenger ?

Clearly I'm not advocating trespass (if that's what it was) - I'm saying that it's impossible to stop people doing this, especially when they can see the station and they want to get home. I know that it's technically trespassing, but then going at more than 70 mph on a motorway is also against the rules, yet most drivers do it every day.

The train batteries should be used to maintain PA, lighting and heat for as long as possible. Particularly the PA to KEEP PASSENGERS INFORMED. Too often the driver isn't given enough information to be able to keep passengers calm and informed. Given that the Hampshire 13 hour stranding had been alll over the news that morning, when the Lewisham passengers heard nothing, I suspect they were concerned they'd be left to rot until daylight. If the current batteries aren't up to the job, fit bigger batteries (weight penalty, I know). The real solution is to find a way to stop 3rd rail trains getting stuck like this in the 1st place. Perhaps a small diesel engine or battery backup for "last mile power" a la Class 88 might be a way forward.

 

[alexl92]

I think that the only possible stupidity is not knowing what the live rail is, unless you are senile or a child.

I’m sorry but this is highly ignorant. The vast majority of commuters do no know or care how their train works other than that it runs on rails. To look at what enthusiasts would recognise as the Live rail, there is nothing to tell you that 750V of direct current is running through it and even if they were to look down the train and see the collector shoe there making contact with that rail, they could easily assume it was some kind of extra rail for stability or something.

I will also say that had I been in this situation, probably being aware of the New Forest issue the day before and with the platform in sight, I would have followed fellow passengers off. Most humans would.

 

[Mikey C]

One of the trains in the photos was a Class 376, which doesn't have toilets

Yes, what the passengers did was wrong, this whole incident does sound like a shambles which reflects badly on the railway and Soiutheastern. We're not talking about trains stuck in the middle of a forest or open fields surrounded by snow drifts, this is inner London

 

[alistairlees]

I was on the 17.10 Charing Cross - Ashford (12-car ex-Southern 375) last night which was the first train behind the train stuck behind the one struggling to go up the flyover from Tanners Hill Junction (I think that was a Charing Cross - Gravesend train but will check).

The 17.10 left Charing Cross 14 minutes late and came to a halt at Tanners Hill Junction. The train in front had physically cleared the junction (according to the driver) but was still within the signal overlap. It was reported as going extremely slowly up the hill because of ice on the third rail. At the time we thought this would take a little while, but eventually make it. It was only later we heard that a passenger on that train had pulled the emergency alarm too.

I can't remember when the juice was switched off, but it was when passengers started to detrain from other trains. After around another hour (maybe less) the lights and heating went as the battery power was switched off too. Our train got rather cold. From about 20.45 there was expectation (from tweets and various other messages) that the juice would go back on at 21.00, providing that no more people got off trains and on to tracks. But they continued to do this so it was not until 21.42 that the juice was switched back on. After several attempts the driver managed to get the train to restart (had to build up air pressure, shoes wouldn't go down at first, computer wouldn't reboot etc.) The middle four carriages of the 12-car train would not get power at all, so we proceeded from 21.54 with those in darkness and with no heat. We had just received the green signal a few minutes before, but I have no idea when the train fouling Tanners Hill Junction was removed (though at least by 21.45, as trains were coming past in the other direction by then).

What I haven't mentioned is that morale was actually pretty good on the whole train. People got talking and were supportive and you could see it visibly making a difference, and reducing some people's anxiety. Others only looked at their phones, but it's each to their own. There was only one verging-on-aggressive passenger (in coach 12, I was in coach 1), mostly as a result of drink. No-one attempted to detrain from this train, though that was probably helped by not being within visible sight of a station (we were in the brick retained-wall cutting between New Cross and St Johns, with a tunnel at one end at least).

We got to Tonbridge at 22.58. Exactly 300 minutes late. An additional train was laid on to Hastings.

All in all a trying experience for everyone (staff, passengers, BTP, Network Rail, emergency services etc.). People on or train were frustrated that other trains kept self-evacuating and this was delaying us getting going again. But spirit and camaraderie were good considering the circumstances. Thank you to all who sorted it out (obviously I would like it to have been much quicker, but understand why not).

I am also pretty glad I had the foresight to get some food and drink (shared with other passengers) from M&S at Charing Cross before getting on the train!

 

[Kettledrum]

The London standard report is particularly painful reading. The live twitter comments of the passengers in tortuous conditions show that South Eastern were aware of the deteriorating conditions on board and made completely the wrong call.

 

[Mikey C]

Replacing the 3rd rail with OHLE will never happen, but would it be possible to replace the 3rd rail with an under-running system like the DLR has? Expensive, but it would significantly improve safety and weather resistance?