Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[theageofthetra]

And are you happy for your fares/taxes to rise substantially to pay for this “root and branch change”? I doubt it.

How does replacing the incompetent with those who can effectively crisis manage or allowing the free flow of ideas cost money?

 

[Bromley boy]

How does replacing the incompetent with those who can effectively crisis manage or allowing the free flow of ideas cost money?

Replacing the incompetent or replacing third rail?

It doesn't matter anyway. You can keep blathering away on here to your heart's content but I bet in 30 years time the SE region will still be DC electrified.

 

[theironroad]

As emu/dmu trains become more sophisticated, I wonder if there is a tech solution to prevent 3rd rail areas immediately around the shoe gear being treated.

Just as we have Sanders on trains for low adhesion, maybe there could be a system for high pressure hot air to be directed immediately in front and behind the shoe gear. This would only be activated (automatically) when the temp has fallen to zero or an appropriate level.

I can't remember which year it was, but when Swt introduced the Siemens 444/450 there was a massive issue with couplers become frozen and ice build up preventing attachments. By the following year a mod had been worked out and all the 444/450 have heated couplers which only activate at a certain temperature.

While MPV and loco de-icing is good, some of these problems seem occur after weather events have occured following a de-icing run.

 

[theageofthetra]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Staff shouldn't be hired in safety critical roles because they are not telling men to urinate in the bins???? For real ? Lol

From the media reports, I believe that people did congregate in one carriage on at least one of the stranded NF trains.

If it was a 5 car 444 there are 4 toilets, 3 of which have manual doors so no need to force open.

Replacing the incompetent or replacing third rail?

It doesn't matter anyway. You can keep blathering away on here to your heart's content but I bet in 30 years time the SE region will still be DC electrified.

The incompetent and the crisis management failures of course. The DC system isn't the best but it's here, and likely to stay for years and we need to find ways to make it work better.

 

[amcluesent]

I wonder if there is a tech solution to prevent 3rd rail areas immediately around the shoe gear being treated.

If you Google, there are some articles and patents on using an induction coil ahead of the shoe. In the same way as an induction hob, this heats the metal rail just enough to break the ice/metal bond layer and allow the ice to be scraped off even while running at up to 30mph.

 

[ComUtoR]

As emu/dmu trains become more sophisticated, I wonder if there is a tech solution to prevent 3rd rail areas immediately around the shoe gear being treated.

A couple of years ago our 375's (/8 I believe) were fitted with de-icing. I have always wondered why this was only fitted to a very small section of the fleet and why its not on the entire Electrostar fleet and why not Networkers, especially as Metro gets hit really hard.

Just as we have Sanders on trains for low adhesion, maybe there could be a system for high pressure hot air to be directed immediately in front and behind the shoe gear. This would only be activated (automatically) when the temp has fallen to zero or an appropriate level.

I thought about this and the MPV does have steam/hot water jetting but I do wonder how sensible it woul dbe to squirt water onto a very very cold rail, hot water or otherwise. Would that cause more of a problem ?

 

[theironroad]

A couple of years ago our 375's (/8 I believe) were fitted with de-icing. I have always wondered why this was only fitted to a very small section of the fleet and why its not on the entire Electrostar fleet and why not Networkers, especially as Metro gets hit really hard.



I thought about this and the MPV does have steam/hot water jetting but I do wonder how sensible it woul dbe to squirt water onto a very very cold rail, hot water or otherwise. Would that cause more of a problem ?

I'm no engineer, but yes I think squirtin water may cause an issue especially when very cold as it might freeze on contact and cause more issues.

I'm guessing more of a super glorified and super heated hair dryer blasting dried (to remove the air moisture) through a narrow juice rail width size nozzle just above the rail. I'm not sure if it's practical tbh.

Does the de-icing kit on the 375s work well?

 

[The Box Photter]

Again - cost!

And the continuous assertions that it is highly dangerous are incorrect. I seem to remember some figures shown on here recently showing it’s marginally more dangerous than OHLE for employees. But still “safe” overall - I’m far more likely to get killed driving to work than I am to be juiced.

EDIT: and there are some locations where it might be cost effective to (slightly) expand it. Uckfield and the Marshlink beingn 3rd rail electrified would remove the need for GTR to maintain a microfleet of 171s, for example.

I'm not suggesting this would be without cost. A properly managed switchover from steam/diesel/3rd rail to 25kv OHLE in the 30 years or so after 1948 would have spread the cost. Unfortunately, the pro-road Tory government and incompetence of Labour's Barbara Castle failed to challenge the Beeching cuts whilst continuring to build motorways instead of electrifying the network.

Replacing incompetent management (at all levels) with competent and insightful management has a zero cost. I'm not advocating re-nationalisation either, but it's illogical to have the current separation of track and infrastructure from the operational side of the railway. It builds in bureauracy and delay, plus it removes accountabilty to the taxpayer and paying passenger. As we're always told that the separation of track from trains is a result of EU law, we won't have to bother about that after 2019, so we could go back to regional vertically integrated railways, accountable to their local/regional governments. Scotrail could go as a single unit and "WelshRail" could follow suit. Let the politicans in Holyrood and Cardiff Bay loose on their own trains and see what kind of job they do.

I realise this is a very London-centric issue, but lets face facts, the vast majority of commuter journeys in the UK are to/from London. So, sorry "the North" London's where the money has to be spent. Perhaps we could transplant the 3rd rail system onto Trans Pennine or one of the other Northern Powerhouse networks. That way they'd be able to use their Class 319s without having to put a diesel engine in them.

 

[theageofthetra]

If you Google, there are some articles and patents on using an induction coil ahead of the shoe. In the same way as an induction hob, this heats the metal rail just enough to break the ice/metal bond layer and allow the ice to be scraped off even while running at up to 30mph.

A very sensible idea- is it just at the testing stage or has it been fitted to any units?

 

[ComUtoR]

Does the de-icing kit on the 375s work well?

Dunno. I don't sign them. I'd also be interested in how successful they are. Mainline completely broke as they were deep in snow. I think the success of such a system really relies on a large percentage of units with it fitted or at least units timed so that a de-icer runs in front of another service and interspersed between the service to provide a consistent layer of protection.

This is a rare event and it shows how broken the system really is and how much we are prepared to accept at the cost. I was watching the Last Leg last night and Adam Hills summed it up perfectly. What is also happening is that the rarer this event is the less people are prepared and trained for it. My actions would have been totally different and when I was sitting about being a lazy, overpaid, Driver, drinking free coco on the taxpayers dime.. [/troll] There were Driver in the crew room that had never driven in snow or icy conditions. this was a complete new experience for them. Some had never heard of ghosting either. Lack of experience also showed its ugly head.

 

[njamescouk]

yet instead of apologies from the train company for putting their passengers in this situation, they accuse the passengers of being criminals for trespassing on the line.

reflex action by railco, the customers are criminals to be restrained.

ditto with ticketing, east midland trains read you your rights before the train sets off from Sheffield in order to have a watertight case in court. I wouldn't use a supermarket that treated me like that and mercifully I don't have to use the railway now.

 

[njamescouk]

The second they stepped onto the track they were trespassing. No if, and or buts, 100% trespass. Not only did they endanger their own lives, they put the lives of others at risk and caused further delays to other services, instigated a need to turn off the power which then affected other units and other passengers and just created more chaos. Selfish [expletive deleted].

look forward to a smart lawyer winning a case for false imprisonment personally. railcos need to get their act together.

 

[amcluesent]

Do drivers get paid O/T when they're sitting all night in the cab of train that is stuck due to 3rd rail issues or signal faults?

 

[theageofthetra]

Dunno. I don't sign them. I'd also be interested in how successful they are. Mainline completely broke as they were deep in snow. I think the success of such a system really relies on a large percentage of units with it fitted or at least units timed so that a de-icer runs in front of another service and interspersed between the service to provide a consistent layer of protection.

This is a rare event and it shows how broken the system really is and how much we are prepared to accept at the cost. I was watching the Last Leg last night and Adam Hills summed it up perfectly. What is also happening is that the rarer this event is the less people are prepared and trained for it. My actions would have been totally different and when I was sitting about being a lazy, overpaid, Driver, drinking free coco on the taxpayers dime.. [/troll] There were Driver in the crew room that had never driven in snow or icy conditions. this was a complete new experience for them. Some had never heard of ghosting either. Lack of experience also showed its ugly head.

Yes there will be a lot to learn from this and I hope those more experienced hands were offering advice to the less experienced ones freely.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not suggesting this would be without cost. A properly managed switchover from steam/diesel/3rd rail to 25kv OHLE in the 30 years or so after 1948 would have spread the cost. Unfortunately, the pro-road Tory government and incompetence of Labour's Barbara Castle failed to challenge the Beeching cuts whilst continuring to build motorways instead of electrifying the network.

Probably true. If we were starting from scratch third rail wouldn't be the default choice (although intriguingly it was favoured for the DLR, albeit an inverted design less prone to icing). But the fact remains we are where we are!

When it comes to allocating scarce resources, we are better off improving what we already have than change for the sake of it.

Replacing incompetent management (at all levels) with competent and insightful management has a zero cost. I'm not advocating re-nationalisation either, but it's illogical to have the current separation of track and infrastructure from the operational side of the railway. It builds in bureauracy and delay, plus it removes accountabilty to the taxpayer and paying passenger. As we're always told that the separation of track from trains is a result of EU law, we won't have to bother about that after 2019, so we could go back to regional vertically integrated railways, accountable to their local/regional governments. Scotrail could go as a single unit and "WelshRail" could follow suit. Let the politicans in Holyrood and Cardiff Bay loose on their own trains and see what kind of job they do.

Yes a more joined up approach would be a good idea, things like Transport Southeast, or whatever it's called, are probably useful steps towards this.

An obvious issue with making TOCs responsible for the track is what happens in the many locations where more than one TOC operates over a particular stretch. The railway is so intermeshed that however it is divided up, there will inevitably be some crossover and a line has to be drawn somewhere. It's probably easier to keep the track and train operations sperate - although I don't pretend to understand the rationale underpinning the current structure.

I realise this is a very London-centric issue, but lets face facts, the vast majority of commuter journeys in the UK are to/from London. So, sorry "the North" London's where the money has to be spent. Perhaps we could transplant the 3rd rail system onto Trans Pennine or one of the other Northern Powerhouse networks. That way they'd be able to use their Class 319s without having to put a diesel engine in them.

Self powered units, be they diesel or battery powered in future, are always going to be more cost effective for lightly used branch lines and secondary routes, and may become even more so as battery technology develops.

I assume that's a joke about transplanting the third rail north. You do realise the 319s operate on 25kV?!

 

[The Box Photter]

Probably true. If we were starting from scratch third rail wouldn't be the default choice (although intriguingly it was favoured for the DLR, albeit an inverted design less prone to icing). But the fact remains we are where we are!

When it comes to allocating scarce resources, we are better off improving what we already have than change for the sake of it.



Yes a more joined up approach would be a good idea, things like Transport Southeast, or whatever it's called, are probably useful steps towards this.

An obvious issue with making TOCs responsible for the track is what happens in the many locations where more than one TOC operates over a particular stretch. The railway is so intermeshed that however it is divided up, there will inevitably be some crossover and a line has to be drawn somewhere. It's probably easier to keep the track and train operations sperate - although I don't pretend to understand the rationale underpinning the current structure.



Self powered units, be they diesel or battery powered in future, are always going to be more cost effective for lightly used branch lines and secondary routes, and may become even more so as battery technology develops.

I assume that's a joke about transplanting the third rail north. You do realise the 319s operate on 25kV?!

I was trying to inject some humour into the debate re: class 319

 

[Bromley boy]

I was trying to inject some humour into the debate re: class 319

Just checking !!!

 

[RT4038]

Replacing incompetent management (at all levels) with competent and insightful management has a zero cost. .

But in your earlier post (#74) you said that there was no such thing as a free lunch. Of course competent management costs - lots and lots of expensive training (and testing) in every aspect under the sun, and whopping salaries to induce them from going for higher paid less hassle jobs elsewhere. Even then there is no guarantee that this competence will be shown in every possible situation.

Get real. It is always possible to criticise with hindsight, without any real understanding of the pressures and constraints that these people are working under.

 

[Bromley boy]

Do drivers get paid O/T when they're sitting all night in the cab of train that is stuck due to 3rd rail issues or signal faults?

Yes they do.

 

[Signal Head]

Ahh the insults.

I haven't apologized for the TOC, not once. The passengers trespassed that is a fact. Sorry if you do not like that. That then caused a huge knock on effect. Sorry if you don't like that.

I'll happily discuss where the faults with the TOC and the Drivers lie. I have no issue with that and as George correctly states, this shouldn't be a blame game.

These kind of situations will continue to occur because there are those that will egress regardless and support others who do. Please please please for your own safety and that of the other passengers and other trains. Do not egress from the train onto a live running line.

What precise course of action would you suggest then for passengers in desperate need of toilet facilities when there are none on the train? What would *you* do in that situation?

"Hold on to it" is not an acceptable answer, as it simply isn't 'biologically' possible beyond a certain point, and that varies from person to person.

 

[theageofthetra]

But in your earlier post (#74) you said that there was no such thing as a free lunch. Of course competent management costs - lots and lots of expensive training (and testing) in every aspect under the sun, and whopping salaries to induce them from going for higher paid less hassle jobs elsewhere. Even then there is no guarantee that this competence will be shown in every possible situation.

Get real. It is always possible to criticise with hindsight, without any real understanding of the pressures and constraints that these people are working under.

Ok just leave everything as it is and change nothing.?

 

[njamescouk]

so how long is it acceptable to detain people on a train for? 4 hours? 12 hours? or can they be left to die of hypothermia or thirst?

stating that trespassing is wrong under all circumstances is absurd.

 

[ComUtoR]

What precise course of action would you suggest then for passengers in desperate need of toilet facilities when there are none on the train? What would *you* do in that situation?

I take a proactive approach. I wouldn't travel.

 

[amcluesent]

One option to address 'gapped' trains or 3rd-rail icing would to install hi-voltage capacitors. These would be charged from normal running, but would hold enough charge to power the train for, say 500m, to move past the break in 3rd rail supply or arcing. A capacitor pack would need to be about the size of suitcase.

 

[njamescouk]

I take a proactive approach. I wouldn't travel.

well done you. what would you if trapped on a train?

 

[Chris M]

But what else could be done? It's stuck, in foul weather on congested infrastructure, so there's little chance of anything turning up to give it a push. As for getting pax off, this was I presume a DOO train? A small team of people are required to safely evacuate a loaded train, the Driver can't do it on his own. Indeed Driver and Guard is still pushing it for a controlled situation. Station staff are usually not PTS, and they certainly won't have been trained for a lineside evacuation, so despite their proximity in this case, they're not much good. So you're looking at NR staff, on-call managers, BTP etc, and of course they're all already running around like the proverbial chickens. So, what can you do really?!

What else could be done?

• Understand that passengers will self-evacuate and there are only two things the railway can do to stop it - (1) get the train moving again before they do. (2) evacuate them before they do.
  
• Train the staff so they can go on to the track and evacuate people from trains near their station. TfL can do it so there is no reason TOCs can't.
  
• Have more staff available on the ground
  
• Have a plan in place for evacuation before its necessary - if a train breaks down and can't be fixed right away, start preparing to evacuate it now even if you don't need to use that plan.
  
• If you need to move people to site, do it in advance. If you need someone from 40 minutes away (and in an area like inner London you should have someone within about 30 minutes at all times) then get them moving 40 minutes before they're needed, even if you have to turn them back 10 minutes later.

I don’t think some people really understand that a passenger railway is transporting humans, not inert robots.

Three hours, yards from a station, is bound to cheese some people off. Three hours with no toilets is going to result in someone needing to go. At three hours with no light or heat in this weather, on an apparently crowded train, it's a miracle there were no major medical emergencies. I've seen one report on Twitter from a lady who used a towel to hide the fact she was having a panic attack from other passengers (because hysteria is contagious.)

It's all well and good to say "it's dangerous" and "it's illegal," but if they think they might be in for an overnight stay on a packed train with no toilets or heat a la the New Forest incident, can you blame them? Especially if they were told the power was off because people were walking on the tracks - meaning they knew it was safe?

I know I sound like a stuck record but this keeps happening, and the relevant parties need to get their acts together and understand that in situations like this, people will self-evacuate.

This. Very much this. I've also said this before, but the railway needs to understand that passengers are humans and thus they need to understand how humans react in given situations.
eeping passengers on a broken down train for longer than the passengers feel necessary in the circumstances will always result in self-detrainment.

The time between the train coming to a stop and passengers start self-evacuating varies from a few seconds (e.g. smoke or fire on a train that is (partially) in a station - as happened at Holland Park for example) to many hours (e.g. in the middle of a blizzard in the middle of the night in the New Forest), depending on the circumstances.

Things that will increase the length of time before self evacuation happens:
[ul]
[li]Cold and/or wet weather[/li]
[li]Darkness[/li]
[li]Rural environment with no station close by[/li]
[li]Significant terrain (mountains, forests, mudflats, etc)[/li]
[li]No obvious danger on the train (e.g. fire, etc)[/li]
[li]The train has power, heating, working toilets, etc[/li]
[li]Passengers being and feeling like they are being kept regularly informed about the situation and what is happening (and that things are continuing to happen) without being lied to or fed excuses[/li]
[li]Train crew presence[/li]
[li]Obvious risks or danger outside the train (e.g. in a tunnel, on a high viaduct with low parapets, flooding, etc)[/li]
[li]No obvious alternative route visible (e.g. main roads)[/li]
[li]Nobody else self-evacuating[/li]
[/ul]

Things that will decrease the length of time before self evacuation happens:
[ul]
[li]Hot and/or dry weather[/li]
[li]Daylight[/li]
[li]Urban environment[/li]
[li]A station close by (particularly if visible)[/li]
[li]Obvious danger from staying on the train[/li]
[li]Train without power, heating, working toilets, etc.[/li]
[li]Little, no or infrequent information from train crew, especially if passengers feel they are being lied to or fed excuses[/li]
[li]No train crew presence - particularly if passengers know there is a guard but they are not seen or heard[/li]
[li]No obvious risk from self-evacuating (e.g. straight and level track roughly at grade with the surroundings) - electrified track is not a strong deterrent[/li]
[li]Passing trains - 'if they are running there is no reason why we're still stuck, they could get us moving or get one of them to rescue us'[/li]
[li]Benign terrain[/i]
[li]Obvious roads, footpaths, etc, particularly if well used[/li]
[li]Other people self-evacuating[/li]
[/ul]

Part of the issue with pts trained staff is that in means they have to be trained, regularly assessed, have to meet medical standards and be provided with the correct PPE (personal protective equipment). This all adds £££ which a toc won't want to spend for non regular use.

If they don't want to spend the money necessary to ensure that passengers are safe in all foreseeable circumstances (and people being stuck on a broken down train within walking distance of a station is entirely foreseeable) then they should not be allowed anywhere near a railway. If necessary it should be written in to all franchise agreements that every staffed station has enough staff who are PTS trained and have the right PPE, etc. to safely evacuate a crowded train within walking distance of that station, and to do other things such as remove hazardous objects from the line, check for obvious impediments to the safe running of trains following reports (things like obviously broken rails, missing ballast, overbridges that have deposited masonry on the track, etc.), guide paramedics to a stalled train, etc.

I think that the only possible stupidity is not knowing what the live rail is, unless you are senile or a child. Don't schools teach kids about railway safety? It would be better if the passengers (not "trespassers" please, as Southeastern Railway called them) were instructed to walk only ahead of the train and to keep within the four foot.

As a primary school child in the 1980s in North Yorkshire I had one special assembly about railway safety when the ECML (which ran a couple of miles away from the school) was being electrified. It did not cover third rail. As a seconadry school child in Somerset (nearest railway to the school about 10-15 miles away but within the catchment area) I remember receiving no railway safety lessons - not even when we went to the NRM in York.

 

[The Box Photter]

I take a proactive approach. I wouldn't travel.

I'm sure if you'd told all those people in the morning they'd be stuck on a train with no toilets for 3 hours on their way home from work they wouldn't have gone to work. Or perhaps they would because they were worried they'd lose their job or lose pay if they didn't turn up.

You're blaming the victims again here. It wasn't their fault, it was the railway's fault that it couldn't do the only thing its supposed to do - shift large volumes of people from one place to another based on a published timetable at a reasonable cost. It might also have been their unreasonable employers' fault too, by inferring/implying/threatening they'd lose something if they stayed at home.

In sutuations like this, it's all too easy for the TOC/NR to say "don't make any unnecessary journeys" but if you're on a minimum wage job or a zero hours contract or just have a really ****ty boss, making that journey to work might be the difference between having a job on Monday or not, or being able to pay for gas/electricity over the weekend. Of course, the governement could have declared the day/days as additional national holidays, then no-one would have had to travel, but don't forget this government is a Tory one and we've all got to work every hour available to (a) repay the national debt, (b) maintain shareholder value, (c) keep the fat cat employers in the manner to which they've become accustomed. So the average wage-slave employee doesn't really have the luxury of deciding not to travel just because the trains might be unable to cope.

 

[Bromley boy]

Understand that passengers will self-evacuate and there are only two things the railway can do to stop it - (1) get the train moving again before they do. (2) evacuate them before they do.

Making regular PA announcements is key to this, particularly on DOO services, even if there isn't anything really new to say.

As I say the first egress at Lewisham came from someone who had been on a lit, heated train for around 1 hour. This is unacceptable in my view and he of she should be prosecuted if they can be identified.

I have a lot more sympathy for people who subsequently evacuated from cold, dark trains. Although they would still have been better off remaining where they were and the constant egresses had the effect of delaying others further.

 

[BestWestern]

Making regular PA announcements is key to this, particularly on DOO services, even if there isn't anything really new to say.

As I say the first egress at Lewisham came from someone who had been on a lit, heated train for around 1 hour. This is unacceptable in my view and he of she should be prosecuted if they can be identified.

I have a lot more sympathy for people who subsequently evacuated from cold, dark trains. Although they would still have been better off remaining where they were and the constant egresses had the effect of delaying others further.

Indeed. Somebody operating an egress in those circumstances after one hour is nothing but impatient, and I agree that behaviour is needless and unnecessary.

 

[Signal Head]

I take a proactive approach. I wouldn't travel.

That wasn't the question. Are you a Tory MP by any chance?

I know it might be difficult for you, but perhaps you'd can find the courage and decency to respond honestly to the question I asked, otherwise your opinion as expressed in your other posts on the subject is just so much hot air, and worthless.