Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[Robertj21a]

With all those people on board a train(s) in the heart of busy SE London, surely they would have soon created uproar through social media ? Weren't there loads of Tweets trying to ascertain what was going on ? Had passengers been asking the TOC and felt they were being ignored (probably not realising how busy the staff might be) ?

 

[Chris M]

I'm working on the assumption that the first egress was from a train which had functioning heating, lighting.

That's a big assumption to make, but as I say above, self evacuating from atrain yards from an open station in a major urban area after an hour when there is no immediate prospect of a controlled evacuation taking place is completely understandable.

and that the driver was keeping the passengers informed There's virtually no chance the driver would deliberately not do this - for the simple reason that a DOO driver's worst nightmare is an uncontrolled evacuation and failure to keep passengers informed can be a contributory factor to this. We can't discount a faulty PA but again it's almost certain the PA would have been working a good proportion of the train.

Given all the other posts on this thread I can't agree that there was "virtually no chance", indeed rather closer to 50-50.

Assuming the above, I would suggest an hour is an unreasonably short time. I accept it's a different matter when the train is cold and dark and the PA is out of action.

So what would be a reasonable time? Please justify this with reference to how a lay passenger will experience the situation.

What the BBC actually says is that the RAIB is considering whether it will investigate. RAIB investigated the Kentish Town incident because the train moved with the doors open. Nothing like that happened in this week's events.

I would imagine that they would consider investigating every uncontrolled evacuation as, in slightly different circumstances, there could easily be a serious injury or fatality.
I hope they do investigate this as there are serious lessons that need to be learned by the railway, and the general public need to see to these lessons being highlighted and see those lessons being learned.

 

[theageofthetra]

It has been officially announced that the RAIB have been appointed to undertake a full independent investigation into the events at Lewisham last night. Good swift decision making and to be commended.

 

[theageofthetra]

Some people swear it doesn't exist on certain trains - maybe it's a firmware issue. I shall have to ask some drivers to try it out on various traction classes!



Yep, it's definitely a feature which is there in theory. It just doesn't seem to be implemented in Control processes that well! To be honest, though, I can understand that Controllers may find it tough to find an appropriate moment to make a call. They want to make sure the driver isn't distracted, but whilst they're waiting for them to stop the train or otherwise be safe to answer, they may get distracted by something else or need to re-think the message, in light of new information!

There does seem to be some new thinking that there needs to be a distinction by default between the people speaking to train crew (drivers / guards / OBMs / OBSs / whatever!) and co-ordinating both their movements and their information, and the people making the strategic decisions, but this is an area under considerable development.

Yes I had a call from control not long after the upgrade went live. Worked well but it then packed up the PA. Only discovered this when pax crowded round the cab at next station to ask why they had been diverted. Cutting in/out resolved it.

 

[Robertj21a]

It has been officially announced that the RAIB have been appointed to undertake a full independent investigation into the events at Lewisham last night. Good swift decision making and to be commended.

Excellent. I hope they ask for input from all interested parties. Can their decisions be binding or just advisory ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think the cost of that would be prohibitive.

What is in my view needed is that, with a few possible exceptions like the Far North Line and S&C where other , there is a plan, including one which will work in severe weather, for the evacuation of any stuck train without toilets, or with an interior temperature less than say 15 degrees Celsius, within one hour, and any other stranded train within three hours.

For situations where this would not be possible, the train must carry an adequate amount of emergency equipment, which might include some kind of emergency toilet facility (bag and box based ones exist for use at festivals etc), an adequate quantity of water (I would say a 500ml bottle per seat would be a good starting point for this) and an adequate quantity of orange plastic mountain survival bags (one per seat as a minimum).

Quite frankly , on routes like the S+C , Heart of Wales and the Far North , the contingency is not to run (frankly) - it is not 1930 when the trains actually carried mail , food , newspapers etc - even freight. Best just sit it out at home / hotel and not risk a stalled train in a horribly difficult scenario.

Without being too distasteful - certain trains carry a "body bag" for use in distressing scenario's , I see why a Metro train could carry a "special bag's" - for the relief of passengers as part of the (sealed) emergency equipment , I believe the NS do so on some of their trains... obviously carrying water etc on the Mid Kent line or the Dartford Loop lines would , in reality , be crazy.

Anyway - ATOC published a guide to responses to "stalled" trains , not mandatory but advisory , it can be found by our friends at Google ....

 

[tsr]

Southern electric units have a winter kit with deicer and glow sticks. Enough to illuminate a train without power and give some hope of / attempt at movement. Used at least a couple of times this winter, including one incident I was involved in.

 

[Mikey C]

It has been officially announced that the RAIB have been appointed to undertake a full independent investigation into the events at Lewisham last night. Good swift decision making and to be commended.

Good. This whole incident was a shambles, being crammed in a high density commuter train with no facilities for 3 hours and little or no information it's hardly surprising people decided to take things into their own hands.

From the point of view of the public, they will want to know how a modern train running through SE London could grind to a halt in this way, when the conditions (to the public anyway) really weren't that bad. The nearby DLR was running pretty well, as were the "above surface" sections of the Underground. If such incidents happen, then clearly they have to be managed far better.

 

[EM2]

With all those people on board a train(s) in the heart of busy SE London, surely they would have soon created uproar through social media ? Weren't there loads of Tweets trying to ascertain what was going on ? Had passengers been asking the TOC and felt they were being ignored (probably not realising how busy the staff might be) ?

The replies to the Southeastern Twitter account were full of anger.

 

[EM2]

That's a big assumption to make, but as I say above, self evacuating from atrain yards from an open station in a major urban area after an hour when there is no immediate prospect of a controlled evacuation taking place is completely understandable.

After an hour, there was no need for a controlled evac, because work was going on to de-ice the juice and try and get the train running.
Everything that happened after that is a result from that one person decamping.

So what would be a reasonable time? Please justify this with reference to how a lay passenger will experience the situation.

Who knows? The train in the New Forest was there all night and no-one bailed.

...there are serious lessons that need to be learned by the railway, and the general public need to see to these lessons being highlighted and see those lessons being learned.

So what do you want to be done in the future?

 

[Nevasleep]

After an hour, there was no need for a controlled evac, because work was going on to de-ice the juice and try and get the train running.
Everything that happened after that is a result from that one person decamping.

Oh darn it, if only the passengers had stayed aboard for another 5, 15, 45, 90, 180, 300 minutes, next to a station.

 

[swj99]

.....Forget all this hiding behind claptrap like the station staff not being PTS trained - you train them because it might just be vital in situations like this.....

My thoughts exactly.

......If they choose to not train station attendants in trackside safety etc, they are setting themselves up for this situation....

Totally agree.

.......It was entirely foreseeable that passengers would try and evacuate just yards from the station in these circumstances, yet instead of apologies from the train company for putting their passengers in this situation, they accuse the passengers of being criminals for trespassing on the line.

And yet the TOCs still haven't learned from previous mistakes.

...........and the FCC Dock Junction mass detraining fiasco from a few years ago (which resulted in the TOC being severely censured by the RAIB) ought to inform all TOCs that they need to step up their game during periods of disruption and bad weather............

A few points here. A person is only guilty of trespass if they plead guilty or are found guilty by a court. There are many valid defences to a charge of trespass, and regardless of what people may tell you, there is no black and white.
As has already been mentioned, train operating companies have been slow to acknowledge that there is a problem, and more and more people now are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Office of Rail Regulation is aware of the problem, and in fact prosecuted FCC back in 2013 after finding that it had not adequately planned its response to deal with stranded trains. That's 5 years ago, but the problem continues to arise.

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of this type of incident, the fact that it's happened again suggests the problem has not gone away, and will not go away situations which lead to it are managed considerably better.

 

[amcluesent]

I read from someone who claimed to have been on the train that the detraining occurred after pax had waited an hour from the previous announcement only to be informed that nobody at Southeastern could decide what to do. Enough was enough.

 

[Llanigraham]

There are station staff at Lewisham but they are not even PTS trained. Make of that what you will.

And?
I hope you realise that there are thousands of railway personnel who aren't PTS trained, from platform staff to signallers, because they don't need to be.
To get PTS there are specific medical requirements, training and re-assessments.
Do you actually know what the requirements are?
Are you suggesting that those requirements should be reduced?

 

[island]

Excellent. I hope they ask for input from all interested parties. Can their decisions be binding or just advisory ?

The RAIB makes recommendations. It is up to those to whom they are addressed to implement them.

 

[Chris M]

Who knows? The train in the New Forest was there all night and no-one bailed.

See my post this morning addressing exactly this - at night, in a blizzard, in a forest, remote from a station on a longer-distance train that was not overcrowded is almost entirely different to a crammed commuter train with no toilets yards from a station in inner London.
As you seem to need it spelling out, my question is "how long would be reasonable in the circumstances that applied at the time?"

 

[EM2]

...my question is "how long would be reasonable in the circumstances that applied at the time?"

How long is a piece of string? Every set of circumstances is different, every person is different. Ten minutes would be a problem in some situations, all night is OK in others.
In those particular circumstances, personally I would wait out as long as it takes, because being 'yards from a station in inner London' means it should be no more than a few hours.

 

[Chris M]

And?
I hope you realise that there are thousands of railway personnel who aren't PTS trained, from platform staff to signallers, because they don't need to be.
To get PTS there are specific medical requirements, training and re-assessments.
Do you actually know what the requirements are?
Are you suggesting that those requirements should be reduced?

No, we are saying that platform staff do need to be PTS trained, or at least every staffed station should have sufficient PTS-trained staff that a train stalled walking distance from that station can be safely evacuated. If there are insufficient station staff who meet the requirements then more staff need to be employed who do.
I don't know the requirements for PTS, but if it is a one-size-fits all qualification then maybe it could be looked at to see whether all the requirements are relevant for station staff who will only need to go on the track in the vicinity of a station. If they are not, then a separate qualification without those irrelevant requirements should be considered (it may or may not be cost effective and/or may or may not significantly increase the number of staff who could obtain it, but the answers to these questions should be known).

 

[Chris M]

How long is a piece of string? Every set of circumstances is different, every person is different. Ten minutes would be a problem in some situations, all night is OK in others.
In those particular circumstances, personally I would wait out as long as it takes, because being 'yards from a station in inner London' means it should be no more than a few hours.

So your answer is "a few hours", meaning that you would be happy to sit on a train within walking distance of a station for at least three hours, possibly longer, without food, water, access to a toilet or even possibly information? With limited ability to move and probably having to time share a seat (if you have one at all)? And you think it is reasonable to expect those people who expected to be on a train for less than an hour total, who have no knowledge of how the railway works, have places to get to, etc. to wait that long in those circumstances? Really?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the BBC news this morning they announced that they would be speaking on the telephone to someone from Maidenhead who was on the train behind. I thought why would they be passing through Lewisham at that time of evening. They quickly corrected the BBC by stating that they live in Maidstone.

Well done BBC, you might get something right one day.

It's far from the worst error on even this story: I've heard several radio reports of "passengers evacuating themselves", which would create an even bigger mess, quite literally, than evacuating their train!

 

[MP33]

Regarding lessons being learned. Was there not an instance on London Underground where four different managers thought that they were in charge?

I would have thought that the first actions in an urban area would be to get as close to a station platform as possible or in an non urban area close to a foot or level crossing. That way the amount of problems with trespassing would be reduced.

I have been on a train that was stopped for a length of time on Greater Anglia, this time on a very hot day which was causing problems. It was between Stratford and Ilford and after an hour a few passengers bailed out. This is on a stretch where there are five stations within three miles. The BTP eventually turned up well after the trespassers had left.

The train eventually limped into Ilford station and when it left there were a couple of people being tended to on the seats on the platform who did not look in a good way.

 

[Bromley boy]

Excellent. I hope they ask for input from all interested parties. Can their decisions be binding or just advisory ?

It is good that they’re investigating and hopefully lessons can be learned.

An RAIB investigation is just that - an investigation. They provide a highly detailed and objective account of what happened in any particular incident, what the causal factors were leading up to it, how events unfolded, the outcome etc.

They might go as far as making recommendations for changes to TOC or network rail procedure but these are advisory only and the reports are specifically not intended to apportion blame. Indeed the preamble to the reports always makes this explicitly clear.

 

[EM2]

Really?

Yes. Because I would think to myself: 'Hmmm. Weather is a bit dicey. I think I'll fill up my flask before I leave work, and pick up a couple of sandwiches and some chocolate. And there's no loo on those trains, so I'd better go before I leave.'
Or I would have taken an overnight bag on the way in, just in case the weather had got so bad that I couldn't travel at all, and might have had to find a hotel or crash at a friend's.

 

[Bromley boy]

And?
I hope you realise that there are thousands of railway personnel who aren't PTS trained, from platform staff to signallers, because they don't need to be.
To get PTS there are specific medical requirements, training and re-assessments.
Do you actually know what the requirements are?
Are you suggesting that those requirements should be reduced?

Of course I know the requirements. I've done the course myself. Have you?!

It's a matter of a few hours, no big deal to put people through it. In my view people working on the platforms at busy stations, and certainly a major station like Lewisham, should be capable of conducting themselves on the track where appropriate

No doubt in years gone by the would have been but of course the TOCs wish to penny pinch at every turn, de staff and de skill those staff who remain.

 

[The Box Photter]

Yes. Because I would think to myself: 'Hmmm. Weather is a bit dicey. I think I'll fill up my flask before I leave work, and pick up a couple of sandwiches and some chocolate. And there's no loo on those trains, so I'd better go before I leave.'
Or I would have taken an overnight bag on the way in, just in case the weather had got so bad that I couldn't travel at all, and might have had to find a hotel or crash at a friend's.

You're talking complete rubbish. Passengers don't think like this and shouldn't have to make elaborate preparations just in case the TOC/NR **** up big time stranding them in a packed metal tube with no heating or toilets. They weren't expecting a 3 hour (or even a 1 hour) journey. The UK rail industry seems to delight in continually dropping the ball and then blaming their customers for reacting badly to the situations they're forced to endure.

Then ... apologists like you spew forth opinions and rules & regs justifying the (in)actions of the operators. The current mindset seems to be "if we do nothing we can't be held accountable if things get worse" ... "lets keep the cattle penned on the train and if they soil themselves it's their problem". No it isn't. The operators have a duty of care to their passengers, including making sure they don't have to undergo the humiliation of pissing in a bottle/out of a door/into their own underwear.

I'm sure the Twitterverse was seething with rage, but the TOC Twitter drones just keep on with the same platitudes. Its the same with every TOC, a facade of customer service with nothing behind it.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yes. Because I would think to myself: 'Hmmm. Weather is a bit dicey. I think I'll fill up my flask before I leave work, and pick up a couple of sandwiches and some chocolate. And there's no loo on those trains, so I'd better go before I leave.'
Or I would have taken an overnight bag on the way in, just in case the weather had got so bad that I couldn't travel at all, and might have had to find a hotel or crash at a friend's.

Precisely! Took exactly those precautions on Thursday (plus hat, boots, over trousers, torch, etc.) Discovered, after several hours of attempts, that it was going to be impossible to get home as local line blocked by snow. Ended up sleeping at a relative's house. No real problems. Even took spare cagoule and gloves in case a fellow passenger needed them on a train stuck in middle of nowhere.

In a remote, Northern, rural area all this stuff comes easily. Yet when I was in still-freezing London on Friday afternoon there were people shivering at bus stops in shorts, open necks, light shoes, no bag of stuff...

 

[Chrisgr31]

Its rather entertaining that the first few posts in this thread criticise the BBC for making mistakes in their reporting and then many posters go on to ignore what actually appears to have happened.

According to the South Eastern twitter team the power was turned off to a short section of track on a single line to allow the 3rd rail to be deiced. The staff doing the deicing then found a passenger had joined them on the tracks. This lead to the power being turned off on all the tracks. They also said the loss of power leads to the loss of PAs. Once the power was off over a wider area more passengers detrained and the issue got worse.

I am not sure what South Eastern could have done differently. A poster in this thread has said it was difficult to get off a train down to the tracks, so had they evacuated the first train after an hour, they would then have had to evacuate all the other trains that were stuck behind it, and in the whole area due to the power being off.

Of course had there mean more staff on board who knows if the outcome would be different. As a passenger I have often got stuck on the Uckfield line. If its a single unit then the driver stays in the cab and the guard walks through the train advising passengers what is going on. If its 2 or more units then both tend to walk through their respective parts of the train. Quite often they only say we are trying to get info and the passengers tend to be sympathetic.

 

[EM2]

You're talking complete rubbish. Passengers don't think like this and shouldn't have to make elaborate preparations just in case the TOC/NR **** up big time stranding them in a packed metal tube with no heating or toilets. They weren't expecting a 3 hour (or even a 1 hour) journey.

It's not a question of expecting it, but rather that **** happens. There were warnings aplenty about the weather, if people were not prepared for it that is not my fault.
In the boot of my car is a bag packed with a change of clothes, a washbag, a flask and some crisps and chocolate, there's also some wellies, a shovel, a scraper, screenwash and de-icer, and in the bag I carry for work I have a torch, spare batteries for the torch and a powerbank for my mobile. I live ten minutes drive from work, but I never know when I might need any of it.
Actually, I tell a lie. The torch is in the car as well.

 

[theironroad]

It has been officially announced that the RAIB have been appointed to undertake a full independent investigation into the events at Lewisham last night. Good swift decision making and to be commended.

Do you have a source or link please that there's been an official announcement that the RAIB will investigate?

The media reports I saw earlier said that South Eastern were going to hold and independent enquiry by a yet to be announced external body.

Additionally, they (SE) said they were self-referring the incident to the RAIB if they wished to consider it.

As an aside, the RAIB only released their report into the Lewisham freight derailment a couple of days ago, so at least they'll be familiar with the area.........

 

[Llanigraham]

Of course I know the requirements. I've done the course myself. Have you?!

It's a matter of a few hours, no big deal to put people through it. In my view people working on the platforms at busy stations, and certainly a major station like Lewisham, should be capable of conducting themselves on the track where appropriate

No doubt in years gone by the would have been but of course the TOCs wish to penny pinch at every turn, de staff and de skill those staff who remain.

Since I don't know you from Adam, how would I know what you do?
Yes I do know what the PTS course entails, and no I haven't done it because we signallers are not required do so. And funnily enough I would be unable to get a PTS certificate due to my hearing loss.

I see NO justification in getting platform staff to obtain PTS for the very few occasions that it MIGHT be needed.