TPE to increase fares in May by abolishing some Off Peak Day Returns

[Gareth Marston]

Several months ago Mrs Bluefox travelled from Carlisle to Preston and back for work.
She was given advance tickets on TPE services, that cost more than the TPE off peak day return that she could have used instead.
When I explained that she could have got a flexible return ticket for less money, she said they're bought via an agency, and the agency says they get advance tickets because they come with a seat reservation...

This is all to common with Corporate Central Purchasing - Percy in Procurement is told that he'll be getting a deal but in reality hes lazy and wants the simplified admin of a monthly statement not lots of T & S claims. The agency is also lazy and wants to do things as quickly as possible so just bangs out the first fares the computer gives without doing any leg work and most employees have an attitude that the company is paying.

My ex colleagues from Welsh Government come in buy from me or more often than not collect TOD's. I see some right horror story's from Evolvi Corporate

 

[Gareth Marston]

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018) fares:

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

Current fares can be seen here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HUD&dest=0438

Just to put it in perspective Prestatyn to Chester on the North Wales Coast a similar distance to Huddersfield to Manchester is SDR £15.80 & SVR £18.80.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was more thinking that Megabus had to say exactly how many fares at that tier were available. I'm equally skeptical that some of these lowest price advance tiers actually exist.

Ah now they do of course exist, that's why they're in the fares data. Whether any are ever actually made available on more than handful of trains in a handful of numbers? Well that's a totally different matter. I can't recall the last time I saw VTEC's lowest tier of Advances on sale. I'm sure they exist and are even sold but I bet it's probably only on one or two trains and with only one or two fares at that tier available.

I think the Megabus case is an interesting one when it comes to APs on the railway. VTEC's website right now is advertising me to "Bag a bargain" and "Get there, for less". It uses a couple of examples for instance Newcastle to London £20.00 on Monday 21 May but when you click through the link you find that that fare is only available on the 2115 (which arrives in London at 0103) and that there are only six of them available! Is that the level of availability that the advertising leads you to expect? I don't know. It certainly doesn't to me. Whether anyone else would agree and whether the ASA would agree I honestly have no idea.

 

[Deerfold]

This is all to common with Corporate Central Purchasing - Percy in Procurement is told that he'll be getting a deal but in reality hes lazy and wants the simplified admin of a monthly statement not lots of T & S claims. The agency is also lazy and wants to do things as quickly as possible so just bangs out the first fares the computer gives without doing any leg work and most employees have an attitude that the company is paying.

My ex colleagues from Welsh Government come in buy from me or more often than not collect TOD's. I see some right horror story's from Evolvi Corporate

My other half used to be a Civil Servant. We used to buy her tickets for much less than most of her colleagues. Then they changed the rules so she had to go through an agency. They generally bought open returns with a Z1 underground ticket where London was involved despite us specifically asking not to get that as she had a valid pass for LU.

They were paid a percentage of all the tickets they obtained so had little incentive to save money.

 

[lyndhurst25]

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018) fares:

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

Current fares can be seen here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HUD&dest=0438

Any change to the TF time restriction code on the SVR after May 20th? It currently allows travel after 0845 and has no BoJ restrictions.

 

[Starmill]

Just to put it in perspective Prestatyn to Chester on the North Wales Coast a similar distance to Huddersfield to Manchester is SDR £15.80 & SVR £18.80.

So about the same then. Both an incredible rip off on my view.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Any change to the TF time restriction code on the SVR after May 20th? It currently allows travel after 0845 and has no BoJ restrictions.

Don't give them any ideas...

 

[Starmill]

They have only just changed the restriction to TF!

 

[lyndhurst25]

They have only just changed the restriction to TF!

What was it before? It seems to be a bit of a flaw in the system that the price of the SVR is regulated, but TOCs are able to do what they want with the definition of when and when is not considered to be "off-peak".

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was it before? It seems to be a bit of a flaw in the system that the price of the SVR is regulated, but TOCs are able to do what they want with the definition of when and when is not considered to be "off-peak".

They aren't. There will be a minimum validity period in the franchise agreement.

This is why, for example, much as they want to (and they did try and were caught), VTWC cannot apply evening peak restrictions to flows going north from Milton Keynes Central.

 

[Starmill]

What was it before? It seems to be a bit of a flaw in the system that the price of the SVR is regulated, but TOCs are able to do what they want with the definition of when and when is not considered to be "off-peak".

I can't remember I'm afraid and I have no way of checking in detail. 8A maybe? Changed in 2017.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So about the same then. Both an incredible rip off on my view.

Both examples are pushing toward 30p per mile for off peak travel which isn't great for in the regions however Huddersfield to Manchester has a turn up and go frequency many places in the South East dont have and the North Wales Coast between Llandudno and Chester is hardly short on services either compared to most of the North of England.

What would your baseline rate per mile be for travel in the North of England? Peak (Into AM and out PM of metropolitan areas only) and off peak.
Should places with higher frequency services , newer rolling stock and electric traction have higher charges than a rural line with hardly an hourly service and 30 years old DMU's?
Would a regional rate per mile instead of a national one work? Using GVA (Gross Added Value) per head as a basis. London and South Eats at the higher rate, the North East and Wales at the lower and everywhere else the middle?

 

[Silver Cobra]

I can't recall the last time I saw VTEC's lowest tier of Advances on sale. I'm sure they exist and are even sold but I bet it's probably only on one or two trains and with only one or two fares at that tier available.

The cheapest tier of advances are generally available in good quantities on VTEC's Leeds and York stopping services, as long as you're travelling opposite to the peak flow. Searching for journeys from Stevenage to Leeds/York for between 5 and 12 weeks' time, I see a good availability of £13.20 fares, which is the cheapest tier for this journey.

 

[Starmill]

Huddersfield to Manchester has a turn up and go frequency

Personally I wouldn't call it a bona fide 'metro' or 'turn up and go' service. Generally this is thought to be a service where there are no gaps of more than about 10 minutes.

the North Wales Coast between Llandudno and Chester is hardly short on services

Your example, Chester to Prestayn, has some rather long gaps. E.g. 1702 - 1839 on a Sunday. I have been caught before.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Linking back to the non-TPE example given by Starmill, currently, an attempt to make a booking for this Thursday from Crewe to Wolverhampton using the 11:22 outbound in standard class is £35.90 for an Advance *Single* - nearly twice the price of an Off Peak *Return* and almost as much as an Anytime *Return*.

And yet the West Midlands Day Ranger is £26.50 and gives you complete flexibility (off-peak) over a huge area from Crewe down to Northampton and Hereford.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018) fares:

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

Current fares can be seen here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HUD&dest=0438

The effect of which might just be people noticing that if they buy two in opposite directions they may get themselves a season ticket of random length?

Exactly.

The only, and I say only, positive note is that it does mean there is only 1 type of Off Peak ticket which makes explaining the time restrictions easier to people - Anytime is Anytime, Off Peak is after 0845 either way - as opposed to Off Peak time varying depending on whether a CDR or SVR.

It depends on the booking site.

Some allow you to buy 2 x single fares with no warning that a return is cheaper than the sum of the two singles. There was a thread about this the other day.

And is surprisingly common. It is very common to see people with 2 x Advance singles which cost way more than a flexible return they could have used instead. When questioning passengers and trying to advise them for next time they normally always seem to be ignoring my advice, and choose instead to insist that they have the cheapest tickets possible because that is what the website said I had to buy / that is what the trainline sold me / I was told singles were always cheaper than returns / there were no returns available/ I did buy a return / I needed reservations.

I can't remember I'm afraid and I have no way of checking in detail. 8A maybe? Changed in 2017.

It wasn't 8A. It was something else which had a morning restriction on the outward leg but no restriction on the return leg of the ticket. I can't remember exactly what though.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It has just been announced by the guard that with the Timetable change, Cycle Reservations will become compulsory.

Unclear whether this applies just to Scarborough/Liverpool, TPE North, or all TPE services.

There was some word via an internal document I got passed that that this would happen, but nothing to confirm either way has been circulated since. It was to apply to all TPE services on all routes.

In reality of course, unless trains are to sit for ages at each station while the guard or station staff enter in an argument with every bike wielding passenger without a reservation - which would certainly not be welcome by management - then it will be completely unenforceable.

 

[yorkie]

...The only, and I say only, positive note is that it does mean there is only 1 type of Off Peak ticket which makes explaining the time restrictions easier to people - Anytime is Anytime, Off Peak is after 0845 either way - as opposed to Off Peak time varying depending on whether a CDR or SVR.....

Indeed; I'll have to remember to point this out, next time someone requests more "simplification" at any cost; the result of abolishing fares is not going to result in the cheaper fare being the one that remains

The abolishment of CDRs, forcing people to purchase SVRs has happened on other routes in the country in recent years such as on CrossCountry e.g. Cheltenham to Birmingham, Birmingham to Derby etc.

 

[trainophile]

I have just read on another forum that there are plans for TPE Scotland services to no longer stop at Wigan. If t's true that's a big blow for the region.

 

[yorkie]

I have just read on another forum that there are plans for TPE Scotland services to no longer stop at Wigan. If t's true that's a big blow for the region.

There must be plenty of other threads where this has been discussed; TPE used to go the more direct route via Bolton, but that changed once the route via Eccles was electrified and while awaiting electrification of the Bolton route. It's always been part of the plan, as far as I know.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Personally I wouldn't call it a bona fide 'metro' or 'turn up and go' service. Generally this is thought to be a service where there are no gaps of more than about 10 minutes.

Your example, Chester to Prestayn, has some rather long gaps. E.g. 1702 - 1839 on a Sunday. I have been caught before.

I'd hardly call 6 tph from May not turn up and go from Huddersfield to Manchester. The 2.5 tph Prestatyn has Monday to Saturday's is better than a lot of the north of England.

Still what is your answer to an acceptable cost per lie in the North?

 

[trainophile]

There must be plenty of other threads where this has been discussed; TPE used to go the more direct route via Bolton, but that changed once the route via Eccles was electrified and while awaiting electrification of the Bolton route. It's always been part of the plan, as far as I know.

Sorry, it was news to me .

 

[lyndhurst25]

Withdrawing the CDR so there is no Day Return at all of any sort is completely bonkers. The only, and I say only, positive note is that it does mean there is only 1 type of Off Peak ticket which makes explaining the time restrictions easier to people - Anytime is Anytime, Off Peak is after 0845 either way - as opposed to Off Peak time varying depending on whether a CDR or SVR.

Except that Off Peak is after 0845 with SVRs from Huddersfield to Manchester, but after 0830 with SVRs from Manchester to Huddersfield. Simple...

 

[Kite159]

Personally I wouldn't call it a bona fide 'metro' or 'turn up and go' service. Generally this is thought to be a service where there are no gaps of more than about 10 minutes.

Your example, Chester to Prestayn, has some rather long gaps. E.g. 1702 - 1839 on a Sunday. I have been caught before.

6 trains per hour between Huddersfield & Manchester, better frequency than some of the London Overground lines (some which only get a mere 4 trains per hour).

But agreed it does sound a bit bonkers to go away with the day return, no doubt there will be ways around

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'd hardly call 6 tph from May not turn up and go from Huddersfield to Manchester. The 2.5 tph Prestatyn has Monday to Saturday's is better than a lot of the north of England.

Still what is your answer to an acceptable cost per lie in the North?

Not the person you asked, but I would see a ticket as acceptably priced if it costed no more than 10-15p per mile travelled. In London and the South East I accept that this is unrealistic even where there is a poor train service, but for example in the North, Midlands or most other parts of the country I would find that a fair price. Advances should be no more than 5-10p per mile given the much greater restriction on validity.

 

[bb21]

The effect of which might just be people noticing that if they buy two in opposite directions they may get themselves a season ticket of random length?

Ridiculous commercial decision getting rid of CDRs for SVRs that are barely more expensive if yorkie's given example is anything to go by. Makes no sense however you look at it.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Correct regarding cycle reservations being compulsory for the whole of the TPE network from May 20th onwards. About time in my opinion and hopefully this will make peak time travel more comfortable for some...

Anyway, regarding the fare changes I cannot comment.

The TPE services no longer calling at Wigan is very much a welcome change for many of the crews who have to deal with the overcrowding mainly caused by people travelling Wigan to Preston or Manchester. We shall see how things go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Wigan thing is true, Northern will be running a Class 319 as a substitute.

 

[Starmill]

The TPE services no longer calling at Wigan is very much a welcome change

This is very difficult to believe. Manchester / Airport to Wigan or Preston to Wigan passengers on Transpennine trains have been encouraged to choose those trains over all others because they are the cheapest.

 

[Starmill]

I'd hardly call 6 tph from May not turn up and go from Huddersfield to Manchester.

At present there are very significant gaps. 19 minutes in the daytimes or 30 minutes in the evening. It's very unlikely that anyone would use the stopping train from end to end if they had a ticket valid for the fast train, so really it's only 5tph. Turn up and go does not have an 'official' definition but most people would not consider a service with gaps of over 10 minutes 'turn up and go'. The destination stations are not all the same either, which further dents the likelhood that it could be truly 'turn up and go' - most people will want to consult a timetable, or live departures, before they arrive.

The 2.5 tph Prestatyn has Monday to Saturday's is better than a lot of the north of England.

I would not travel from Prestatyn without looking at the timetable first - not when there is a chance that it might be 90 minutes between trains at some times, and could easily be 30 minutes at any time.

Still what is your answer to an acceptable cost per lie in the North?

If you would like to discuss mileage based pricing further, I would be happy to do so in a new thread of your creation!