Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Class 170101]

Some drivers will need to be trained on them clearly, but not all the drivers that would be necessary to run 319s on the mainline on 387 diagrams. By introducing them only as 769s, on their long term diagrams, any unnecessary training for short term needs only is avoided. I heard that only Reading Depot will need to be trained on 769s, whereas to run them on 387 diagrams several other depots would also need changing.

Isn't there a depot a Redhill that will be needed to be trained on them as well?

 

[a_c_skinner]

With luck soon we will know how they work...

 

[DY444]

The circuit breaker changeovers could be very quick so as not to affect the traction electronics. After all, the electronics has to cope with a brief loss of power in neutral sections when operating on AC, so a brief interruption in the DC supply should be comparable.

Units operating on DC generally experience more power interruptions than units operating on AC so that shouldn't be a problem at all for 319s as they've been dealing with it for years

 

[xotGD]

If the 769 conversion project were to fail, would it be possible to use the 319s as loco-hauled stock on non-electrified routes?

Stick a 37 on the front from Oxenholme to Windermere, for example.

 

[TEW]

Isn't there a depot a Redhill that will be needed to be trained on them as well?

Guards depot, yes. Southern Drivers based at Redhill also work some North Downs services, but it seems that they may not be changed. Either way, it's a small number of drivers compared to the number that would need to be trained for 319s/769s to work GWML services.

 

[Jonny]

If the 769 conversion project were to fail, would it be possible to use the 319s as loco-hauled stock on non-electrified routes?

Stick a 37 on the front from Oxenholme to Windermere, for example.

That would be very awkward if not impractical; the couplers are incompatible with anything else in service (rescue situations may differ). Nice thinking though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the project fails a new bi mode order would be sensible, but in the meantime some chopping and changing of routes to maximise the use of EMUs and reduce DMU under the wires running.

 

[mushroomchow]

Still all quiet at the GCR, with no sign of any impending arrival or track time booked. One of the loopier volunteers seems to think it's going to show up as a surprise siding exhibit for the Diesel Gala next week, but I'd be more inclined to merely assume that it's not coming this month.

 

[northwichcat]

It sounds like Porterbrook have missed the boat to be able to use 769s on Windermere services. The only Manchester to Windermere service in the May timetable change will be a portion working with a Blackpool service, meaning 769s can't be used as Salford Crescent can't take 8 x 20m. Northern have also said 195s will be introduced on Chester to Leeds and Manchester Airport to Windermere in December 2018. However, 769s will still be able to run Alderley Edge to Wigan and Wigan to Stalybridge services as soon as they are ready to enter service.

 

[The_Engineer]

It sounds like Porterbrook have missed the boat to be able to use 769s on Windermere services. The only Manchester to Windermere service in the May timetable change will be a portion working with a Blackpool service, meaning 769s can't be used as Salford Crescent can't take 8 x 20m. Northern have also said 195s will be introduced on Chester to Leeds and Manchester Airport to Windermere in December 2018. However, 769s will still be able to run Alderley Edge to Wigan and Wigan to Stalybridge services as soon as they are ready to enter service.

Interestingly, one of the first routes simulated for feasibility was Hazel Grove to Buxton where a 769 exceeds or equals to 2 x 150 timings.

 

[AM9]

... Northern have also said 195s will be introduced on Chester to Leeds and Manchester Airport to Windermere in December 2018. ...

Given that there is no news yet of the class 195 test experience, it's a bit of a gamble expecting them to be fully signed-off, delivered, tested on cleared routes, maintenance facities established and drivers trained by December 2018. The extensive programmes for the most recent stock introductions (e.g. class 700/345) have taken much longer than would be availble between now and Decmber, and have revealed interoperability issues that must surely be the greatest risks with any new rolling stock designs.

Interestingly, one of the first routes simulated for feasibility was Hazel Grove to Buxton where a 769 exceeds or equals to 2 x 150 timings.

Does 'exceeds or equals .... timings' mean take less or more time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does 'exceeds or equals .... timings' mean take less or more time.

If it means "is as good as" the route is made for bi-modes.

 

[notlob.divad]

Interestingly, one of the first routes simulated for feasibility was Hazel Grove to Buxton where a 769 exceeds or equals to 2 x 150 timings.

It was modelled on that route as Porterbrook said it was the most demanding Northern Route.
If they modelled it's performance on that as meeting expectation, then it should mean it can run any Northern route. This doesn't necessarily mean it will be used on that route though.
Additionally, modelled performance needs to be tested against real world conditions and at this point we have not seen a modified unit run on rails, we wait with baited breath.

 

[AM9]

If it means "is as good as" the route is made for bi-modes.

Which is good news.

It was modelled on that route as Porterbrook said it was the most demanding Northern Route.
If they modelled it's performance on that as meeting expectation, then it should mean it can run any Northern route. This doesn't necessarily mean it will be used on that route though.
Additionally, modelled performance needs to be tested against real world conditions and at this point we have not seen a modified unit run on rails, we wait with baited breath.

Well of course, railhead conditions can play their part, but the prospects of the known diesel engines, a known alternator and the very well known DC drive system should go a long way to the model's credibility. The other major unknowns are reliability, and critically, driving techniques.

 

[td97]

This response came from tonight's 'Ask Liam' (Sumpter, one of Northern's regional directors) on Twitter, when asked about 769 entry into service:

When will 769s enter ATN service – Does the WABTEC technology work

We expect the 769s to be entering service between May and the end of the year. All indications are that the technology works but lots of testing to do obviously ^LS

https://twitter.com/Burscoughvia/status/981567658142380034

 

[twpsaesneg]

Apparently one will be on display at Rail Live in June.

https://www.raillive.org.uk/show-features/new-rolling-stock

Class 769 Flex - Porterbrook
We are pleased to announce that a variant of the Class 319 electric multiple unit, which has been modified into a bi-mode will be on display at Rail Live 2018. The Class 319 electric multiple unit is a cost-effective, innovative solution to spread the benefits of electrification to non-electrified route.

 

[childwallblues]

Apparently one will be on display at Rail Live in June.

https://www.raillive.org.uk/show-features/new-rolling-stock

Good news.

 

[northwichcat]

Liam Sumpter (Regional Director at Northern) said yesterday they currently have eight 769s on order which equates to 48 carriages (he can't do mental arithmetic!), if it's a success then they will be part of the long term fleet plan. So the 3 extra is nothing but speculation.

 

[td97]

So the GWR version will be diesel, AC25kV & DC750V
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr

Nineteen tri-mode Flex Class 769s for GWR

Must say, that livery looks good in GWR green and suits the train well

(Photo from the linked article)

 

[Domh245]

They aren't tri-modes, they're bi-modal dual voltage!

 

[507021]

So the GWR version will be diesel, AC25kV & DC750V
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr

Must say, that livery looks good in GWR green and suits the train well

(Photo from the linked article)

Agreed, the livery does suit the unit.

 

[northwichcat]

They aren't tri-modes, they're bi-modal dual voltage!

Indeed. If those are tri-mode then the 319s were bi-mode when they were used on Thameslink.

 

[northwichcat]

The trains will be fitted with air-cooling

Does this mean half way towards air conditioning or something?

 

[jimm]

Does this mean half way towards air conditioning or something?

It means the same kit as is being fitted to the GWR 165s at the moment and has been used in Chiltern's 165s for some years now - it cools the air but doesn't dehumidify it, which a full air conditioning system does.

They aren't tri-modes, they're bi-modal dual voltage!

In France they refer to units that can run on diesel or 25kv or 1,500-volt DC as bi-bi (bi-mode, bi-courant). Not sure it will catch on here though.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Does this mean half way towards air conditioning or something?

Air cooling system and air conditioning are different. An air cooling system works by cooling the water vapour in the air and can work best with keeping the windows open. whist air conditioning acts by romoving the humidity from the train carriage but works best with no openable windows.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are the GWR units planned to have first class?

 

[Chester1]

Air cooling system and air conditioning are different. An air cooling system works by cooling the water vapour in the air and can work best with keeping the windows open. whist air conditioning acts by romoving the humidity from the train carriage but works best with no openable windows.

I am guessing that air cooling requires less power than conditioning? This could be an important factor when running on diesel.

 

[IanXC]

Are the GWR units planned to have first class?

Given the 387s don't have it, and many (all?) Turbos had it removed I would think the chance of these 769s having first class is less than slim to none.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given the 387s don't have it, and many (all?) Turbos had it removed I would think the chance of these 769s having first class is less than slim to none.

The thing is they said they were going to retain first on the North Downs Line according to people on here.

 

[DanNCL]

Given the 387s don't have it, and many (all?) Turbos had it removed I would think the chance of these 769s having first class is less than slim to none.

It was removed from the 165s but retained on the 166s iirc

The thing is they said they were going to retain first on the North Downs Line according to people on here.

The article linked further up this page suggests that the seats will only be recovered and not replaced, so they'll retain whatever interior layout they've already got I'd have thought. Unless GWR take on any of the units that were standard only (which is unlikely as I think Northern already operate most if not all of them) then they should have first class, although it may be declassified.