Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s also being reinstated on the 165s.

 

[DanNCL]

It’s also being reinstated on the 165s.

Is it? I thought the only 165s being retained at Reading were for the Thames branches, which don't need first class.

 

[The Ham]

The thing is they said they were going to retain first on the North Downs Line according to people on here.

According to the article:

GWR said in a statement: “Initially, the fleet will support the introduction of refreshed trains on Heathrow Express services, but will be predominantly be used on routes between Reading and Gatwick, and Reading and Oxford, where the train’s tri-mode can be used to its fullest.

 

[JonathanH]

Given the 387s don't have it, and many (all?) Turbos had it removed I would think the chance of these 769s having first class is less than slim to none.

Do we know that first class won't be reinstated on the 387s once they are no longer working Paddington locals? It got restored to the 165s once they were off that work.

 

[IanXC]

Do we know that first class won't be reinstated on the 387s once they are no longer working Paddington locals? It got restored to the 165s once they were off that work.

Doesn't the 387 work for Heathrow Express involve creating (note they've not had it before) first class?

If it were being done on the rest of the fleet I would think that would have been mentioned?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was removed from the 165s but retained on the 166s iirc


The article linked further up this page suggests that the seats will only be recovered and not replaced, so they'll retain whatever interior layout they've already got I'd have thought. Unless GWR take on any of the units that were standard only (which is unlikely as I think Northern already operate most if not all of them) then they should have first class, although it may be declassified.

Not quite the same layout. The change in mass on the end cars means, for weight reasons, the standing capacity has to be reduced in the middle of those cars by a limited re introduction of 3+2 seating there. There are also extra luggage stacks going in on all four cars, making 3 in each vehicle.

The first class decision is yet to be made so the current layout of the 319/4 in that area remains as is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am guessing that air cooling requires less power than conditioning? This could be an important factor when running on diesel.

I suspect so. I believe aircon was even an issue on 25kV on the Renatus 321, wasn't it? So much so that they refitted the opening windows?

 

[jimm]

Air cooling system and air conditioning are different. An air cooling system works by cooling the water vapour in the air and can work best with keeping the windows open. whist air conditioning acts by romoving the humidity from the train carriage but works best with no openable windows.

I don't know where you get this idea from. Try finding a window that can be opened on a Chiltern 165 - at the same time as the air cooling was installed, they were given new single-pane windows with no opening sections.

All the windows on the GWR 165s that have been fitted with air cooling are locked when in service, though they can be unlocked if the air cooling fails. That said, the Chiltern kit it is based on has always been very reliable in my experience.

Given the 387s don't have it, and many (all?) Turbos had it removed I would think the chance of these 769s having first class is less than slim to none.

The 'removal' simply involved locking the compartment doors open, removing window stickers and external markings and not putting antimacassars on the seats, which were left untouched - all that has been done to reinstate 1st class on the 165s is to reverse the steps listed.

I seem to recall GWR saying at the time the 387s arrived that they could provide a first class section at a later date, if that was required - but with them not reaching Oxford due to lack of overhead wires and IETs working all the Oxford fasts and also covering Paddington-Bedwyn duties, the odds are that the 387s will stay standard class only - with the exception of the sets allocated to Heathrow Express duties.

Is it? I thought the only 165s being retained at Reading were for the Thames branches, which don't need first class.

At the moment the 165s are still covering a number of Cotswold Line duties, where first class is needed. As Clarence Yard says, we will have to wait to see whether GWR deems it worthwhile providing first class on the 769s so that it can still be offered on the North Downs line when they displace Turbos there.

 

[childwallblues]

It was removed from the 165s but retained on the 166s iirc


The article linked further up this page suggests that the seats will only be recovered and not replaced, so they'll retain whatever interior layout they've already got I'd have thought. Unless GWR take on any of the units that were standard only (which is unlikely as I think Northern already operate most if not all of them) then they should have first class, although it may be declassified.

Northern have all except 319372 and 319373.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern have all except 319372 and 319373.

Is one of those with LNR? They have at least one, which seems far too often to end up on the WCML rather than being used on the Standard only Abbey Line where it would actually make sense.

 

[D365]

Is one of those with LNR? They have at least one, which seems far too often to end up on the WCML rather than being used on the Standard only Abbey Line where it would actually make sense.

Both 372 and 373 are off-lease, I think the unit you are referring to is a 319/0.

 

[Kite159]

I suspect so. I believe aircon was even an issue on 25kV on the Renatus 321, wasn't it? So much so that they refitted the opening windows?

The only 321 to have opening windows refitted is the prototype 321448, the other Renatus units don't have hoppers, so whatever the issue was with 448 it has been fixed for the other units.

 

[Starmill]

Is one of those with LNR? They have at least one, which seems far too often to end up on the WCML rather than being used on the Standard only Abbey Line where it would actually make sense.

Except that the Abbey Line is not Standard Only

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except that the Abbey Line is not Standard Only

I sit corrected...they've changed that, then! In early LM days it was, carried over from being Class 313 operated previously.

Interestingly, some journeys have no walk up 1st fares...
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=GSN&dest=WFN for instance.

 

[Starmill]

I sit corrected...they've changed that, then! In early LM days it was, carried over from being Class 313 operated previously.

Interestingly, some journeys have no walk up 1st fares...
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=GSN&dest=WFN for instance.

Yeah, that is sadly not that rare.

What happens at Yarm (no ticket machine) if you board the train, plonk yourself in First Class and ask for a return to Uttoxeter?

 

[MK Tom]

Is one of those with LNR? They have at least one, which seems far too often to end up on the WCML rather than being used on the Standard only Abbey Line where it would actually make sense.

That's 319013. Although when on the WCML it's usually paired with one of the /2s or /4s.

 

[DimTim]

So more orders but we’ve still not seen a prototype emerge from Brush as yet?

Any news of when we are likely to see a unit escape?

 

[LOL The Irony]

So more orders but we’ve still not seen a prototype emerge from Brush as yet?

Any news of when we are likely to see a unit escape?

Probably late May/early June

 

[childwallblues]

Probably late May/early June

Any idea on what the delay is?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Any idea on what the delay is?

All the previous delays. And that was just a guess based on the August date for the first unit testing. It might make it's first appearance at rail live.

 

[mushroomchow]

Friendly reminder that the 769s were supposed to be starting on the Windermere line tomorrow.

We still haven't seen one in the flesh. The first anybody is going to see of one in the light of day won't be until June, and that's presumably going to precede any form of testing. Which makes GWR's decision all the more baffling to me. Are they really going to have more than a dozen units fully tested, shown to be reliable and ready for service operation within a year?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think the GWR thing is rather bizarre. Why not simply take on some spare 25kV EMUs instead, and put the DMUs on the diesel routes? They are coming up spare all the time.

 

[The Ham]

I do think the GWR thing is rather bizarre. Why not simply take on some spare 25kV EMUs instead, and put the DMUs on the diesel routes? They are coming up spare all the time.

It could well be that if they are delayed they could start life as 319's and then be converted at a later date when they move from needing to run GWML services and services like the North Downs Line.

 

[pemma]

I do think the GWR thing is rather bizarre. Why not simply take on some spare 25kV EMUs instead, and put the DMUs on the diesel routes? They are coming up spare all the time.

I think it relates to not enough 16xs already being cascaded west to solve capacity problems, as well as replacing the 150s transferring to Northern and the 143s and 153s being withdrawn.

 

[JonathanH]

I do think the GWR thing is rather bizarre. Why not simply take on some spare 25kV EMUs instead, and put the DMUs on the diesel routes? They are coming up spare all the time.

It was explained earlier in the thread. Putting out 769s on the North Downs line and branches means that only Reading drivers need to be trained. The workings on the main line (including suburban relief line work) involve more depots and therefore more training but the drivers know Turbos.

 

[XCTurbostar]

57301 dragged 319002 & 319008 to Wolverton today. Anyone know why?

 

[mwmbwls]

From?

 

[Silverlink]

57301 dragged 319002 & 319008 to Wolverton today. Anyone know why?

They are probably being added to LNorthwestern fleet as they were supposedly meant to be getting 8 additional units

 

[XCTurbostar]

From?

From Long Marston: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O95253/2018/05/04/advanced

 

[geoffk]

Remember the DfT are funding the scheme in the absence of wiring between Oxenholme and Windermere, Bolton and Wigan and between Manchester and Stalybridge.

But Bolton - Wigan and Man Vic - Stalybridge are still intended to be wired in due course(?) Is there any prospect of 769s being adapted to meet Northern Connect standards? Adding Air-Con would be the most difficult part, changing the seat configuration, adding first class etc. not so difficult.