Who designed the Intercity 125 prototype (Class 41) front end?

[Epic Tetus]

I've just been watching the recent Channel 5 documentary on the 125 - and am confused. I have tried Googling the answer, no joy.

I had always understood that Sir Kenneth Grange had designed the final production Class 43, and that someone else had designed the prototype Class 41. But the documentary first explained that Grange had designed the 125 front end almost on a whim (having been asked to design the livery only), then later explained that the 125 had to be re-designed to accommodate 2 drivers at the insistence of the unions.

If the redesign to the class 43 front end was at the insistence of the unions, it can't also have been on a whim. So does that mean that Grange designed both the Class 43 and the Class 41? If so what did it look like before Grange got involved?

Thanks, from a newbie.

 

[robbeech]

I believe the video shows (briefly) an outline of what it was to look like before Sir Kenneth got his hands on it.

 

[daikilo]

Derby works designed the class 41 nose and I believe its initial livery, Sir Keneth proposed the modified design and the livery used on the class 43.

 

[BestWestern]

I was similarly surprised, however the documentary very clearly stated that Sir Kenneth was originally engaged only to design a livery for the BR-designed Class 41 prototype, but went on to redesign the whole front end of his own accord, and successfully pitched his vision to the BR men. This included wind tunnel testing that Sir Ken himself had carried out, without BR's knowledge. The aero-efficiency was his main selling point for the design. The 41s were built, but then encountered union resistance, requiring a redesign. Sir Ken also undertook this, having obtained approval (seemingly through rather casual conversation!) to omit the buffers, which were realised to be superfluous. And so the icon was born!

So, assuming he wasn't telling porkies, he did both!

 

[Bringback309s]

Yes, Sir Kenneth designed both - the original BR design was shown briefly as a model with a much less aero dynamic nose and looked very brutal - Kenneth explains in some length how he came to do both, and says at the end it was a stream of "lucky accidents" that gave it the iconic look it ended up having.

 

[43096]

Derby works designed the class 41 nose and I believe its initial livery, Sir Keneth proposed the modified design and the livery used on the class 43.

Wrong. The Channel 5 documentary is quite clear and correct about this. ‘SKG’ himself explains how he designed both, having originally been commissioned to do the livery for the prototype.

 

[sprinterguy]

Here's an image of a late sixties mock up of the HSDT:

https://goo.gl/images/VoJK2p

The sloping slab front is more reminiscent of that subsequently chosen for the APT-P sets (While a contemporary mock up for the APT-E showed a much more bulbous design than that ultimately selected).

 

[Epic Tetus]

Yes I carried on watching (which I should have done before posting) and it's clear he did both. I had always thought he took the (to my eyes pig ugly) Class 41 and turned it into the (lovely) Class 43. Not so, it seems.

 

[BestWestern]

Yes I carried on watching (which I should have done before posting) and it's clear he did both. I had always thought he took the (to my eyes pig ugly) Class 41 and turned it into the (lovely) Class 43. Not so, it seems.

I agree that the 41 is not a pretty beast, it looks decades away from the 43!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree that the 41 is not a pretty beast, it looks decades away from the 43!

Time has certainly been kinder to the production power cars than to the prototypes... though the livery of the prototype doesn't help on that front.

Still an improvement on that original design with the weird Southern region-style headcode panel though!

 

[coppercapped]

Hmm! I have the feeling that some memories are fading a bit, the development goes back a bit earlier...

In 1971 BR carried out some test running up to 125mph using an AL6 (aka Class 86) electric locomotive (E3173 'Zebedee' IIRC!) which had been fitted with an aerodynamic reinforced fibreglass nose made by the Plastics Development Unit at Derby. Brian Haresnape refers to this development on page 158 of the second edition of his British Rail 1948-83 A Journey By Design published by Ian Allan in 1983. The shape of this nose was very close to that fitted to the Class 41 and he wrote:

From these tests, a front end shape for the HST's power cars was drawn-up by BR's engineers, and a scale model was subjected to further wind tunnel testing, before production drawings were made. This front end differed quite a lot from the (Design) Panel's original Design Centre model, illustrated in the previous chapter, and had a single driving cab windscreen, as in the case of the APT-E. The lack of glass screens to the sides of the cab was a particularly noticeable feature which the footplate Unions disliked very strongly, and modifications to this for production version, plus the provision for two drivers sitting side-by-side was insited upon. For the prototype a compromise had to be made, with one driver sitting behind the other, as the cab was originally designed for a single man to operate. The Design Panel was not altogether happy with the front end design proposal for the HST, and the consultant Kenneth Grange was first asked to to work upon the prototype with single window, and the the more stylish production version.

The 'Design Centre model' referred to is that linked to by sprinterguy in post 7 above. This was not produced by Derby but by the Design Panel for a public exhibition to show what future travel could be like, the same photograph is on p155 of Haresnape's book. Other early engineering sketches can be seen here. There is also a photograph in Haresnape's book showing a recognisable Class 41 windtunnel model being tested showing the smoke streamlines around the cab. This has the buffer shafts and fairings in place but without any buffer heads fitted.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Here's an image of a late sixties mock up of the HSDT:

https://goo.gl/images/VoJK2p

The sloping slab front is more reminiscent of that subsequently chosen for the APT-P sets (While a contemporary mock up for the APT-E showed a much more bulbous design than that ultimately selected).

Thanks for that. I had been wondering exactly the same thing as the OP for a while. When I was last at the NRM I had a look around to see if they had a model of the original HST concept which I assumed Sir Kenneth Grange would have given when he decided to redesign it but couldn’t find anything.

 

[BestWestern]

Any Photoshop wizards fancy doing a few 'what if' modern image Class 41 mockups? Might be interesting If it had retained that design into squadron service I predict that we'd have seen the lower screen panelled over and conventional light clusters appear. I wonder whether the things would have lasted 40 years, my feeling is they'd have looked ancient after about 20! Any thoughts?

 

[edwin_m]

Hmm! I have the feeling that some memories are fading a bit, the development goes back a bit earlier...

In 1971 BR carried out some test running up to 125mph using an AL6 (aka Class 86) electric locomotive (E3173 'Zebedee' IIRC!) which had been fitted with an aerodynamic reinforced fibreglass nose made by the Plastics Development Unit at Derby. Brian Haresnape refers to this development on page 158 of the second edition of his British Rail 1948-83 A Journey By Design published by Ian Allan in 1983. The shape of this nose was very close to that fitted to the Class 41 and he wrote:


The 'Design Centre model' referred to is that linked to by sprinterguy in post 7 above. This was not produced by Derby but by the Design Panel for a public exhibition to show what future travel could be like, the same photograph is on p155 of Haresnape's book. Other early engineering sketches can be seen here. There is also a photograph in Haresnape's book showing a recognisable Class 41 windtunnel model being tested showing the smoke streamlines around the cab. This has the buffer shafts and fairings in place but without any buffer heads fitted.

I recall seeing a picture of the Class 86 mockup in Modern Railways and probably have it somewhere but no time to look now. I think it was flatter-fronted than the prototype, and seems to align with the graphics on the Channel 5 programme which showed Kenneth Grange taking the idea and making it a bit more sloped and curved to get to the prototype front end (and then doing the production version subsequently). The Design Centre model to seems to have had little influence on the HST.

 

[daikilo]

Yes I carried on watching (which I should have done before posting) and it's clear he did both. I had always thought he took the (to my eyes pig ugly) Class 41 and turned it into the (lovely) Class 43. Not so, it seems.

Well, I don't think he did! He did do the Class 43 front end and the IC125 livery, both of which were a huge change in thinking, but I remain convinced he did not do the Class 41, no matter what any documentary suggests.

 

[hexagon789]

Well, I don't think he did! He did do the Class 43 front end and the IC125 livery, both of which were a huge change in thinking, but I remain convinced he did not do the Class 41, no matter what any documentary suggests.

Certainly I knew he designed the production power cars nose, but until watching the documentary I had never heard nor read of Sir Kenneth having a hand in the design of the Prototype but I could be wrong and he may well have.

 

[coppercapped]

Certainly I knew he designed the production power cars nose, but until watching the documentary I had never heard nor read of Sir Kenneth having a hand in the design of the Prototype but I could be wrong and he may well have.

In my post #11 above I made it clear that it has been known since 1983 that Grange was involved with the design of the Class 41 nose.

 

[hexagon789]

In my post #11 above I made it clear that it has been known since 1983 that Grange was involved with the design of the Class 41 nose.

I'm not saying he wasn't, I simply meant that the documentary was the first I'd ever heard of it.

 

[GusB]

I recall seeing a picture of the Class 86 mockup in Modern Railways and probably have it somewhere but no time to look now. I think it was flatter-fronted than the prototype, and seems to align with the graphics on the Channel 5 programme which showed Kenneth Grange taking the idea and making it a bit more sloped and curved to get to the prototype front end (and then doing the production version subsequently). The Design Centre model to seems to have had little influence on the HST.

There's an interesting snippet on the ACLG website: https://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/stock86101.php

E3173 went on to perform an important role in the development of the HST or InterCity 125. Prior to the prototype of this train being built, E3173 was fitted with an aerodynamic nose and ran a series of high-speed tests in the Tring area, measuring air resistance and pressure effects in tunnels. It is reported that the loco reached 129mph during these tests, becoming the first UK loco to beat Mallard's record! BR chose not to publicise the event, however, as they were expecting better things from their HST, and didn't want to overshadow the new train.

It certainly looks quite bizarre! https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8728238674

 

[43096]

Well, I don't think he did! He did do the Class 43 front end and the IC125 livery, both of which were a huge change in thinking, but I remain convinced he did not do the Class 41, no matter what any documentary suggests.

So you think Sir Kenneth is making it up when he says that he did? That is straight from him, not through any other party. I have heard him say this on more than one occasion.

You can choose what to believe, but you are making yourself look very, very silly by persisting with this line.

 

[edwin_m]

It certainly looks quite bizarre! https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8728238674

That's the one. Not a great photo but the windscreen is certainly a different shape from what was eventually adopted and I think the section below the windscreen is less pointed. He may be exaggerating somewhat or the programme may have played up this angle more than it justified, but I think it shows that Grange had some involvement in the prototype.

 

[coppercapped]

Which is essentially what I wrote in post #11. The Plastics Development Unit made a fairing to fit the front of E3173 for high speed tests. The fairing was attached to the front of the locomotive so its dimensions were fixed by the dimensions of the front of the locomotive - the real front and windscreens were still in place underneath it.

The aerodynamic tests included placing cutout figures at various distances from the edge of the platforms to see if they were blown over by the slipstream of the passing trains. One result was the introduction of the yellow warning line at a safe distance from the platform edges at stations where the HSTs would pass at speed. The CMEE's team used the shape of the fairing as a basis for the front of the prototype HSDT. The Design Panel wasn't too happy with the initial form and got Grange involved. He then changed this preliminary design to become that which was actually built for the prototype HSDT/Class 41. The steps in the evolution of the design were recorded in a book published in 1983 so I'm wondering why it is still a topic for discussion.

 

[43096]

Which is essentially what I wrote in post #11. The Plastics Development Unit made a fairing to fit the front of E3173 for high speed tests. The fairing was attached to the front of the locomotive so its dimensions were fixed by the dimensions of the front of the locomotive - the real front and windscreens were still in place underneath it.

The aerodynamic tests included placing cutout figures at various distances from the edge of the platforms to see if they were blown over by the slipstream of the passing trains. One result was the introduction of the yellow warning line at a safe distance from the platform edges at stations where the HSTs would pass at speed. The CMEE's team used the shape of the fairing as a basis for the front of the prototype HSDT. The Design Panel wasn't too happy with the initial form and got Grange involved. He then changed this preliminary design to become that which was actually built for the prototype HSDT/Class 41. The steps in the evolution of the design were recorded in a book published in 1983 so I'm wondering why it is still a topic for discussion.

And that is what 'SKG' has said on many an occasion. If you like, he refined the design of that initial cab end to make it more aerodynamic.

Like you, I can't understand why this is still open for discussion - guess there's always someone who thinks they know better than the facts(!).

 

[daikilo]

And that is what 'SKG' has said on many an occasion. If you like, he refined the design of that initial cab end to make it more aerodynamic.

Like you, I can't understand why this is still open for discussion - guess there's always someone who thinks they know better than the facts(!).

I still do not think Sir Kenneth designed the nose of the class 41 no matter what some thought he said. He certainly did do a lot of private aero work to refine to the class 43 and did an excellent job and livery. I doubt that the class 41 and livery would have had the success the class 43 IC125 did.

 

[hexagon789]

I still do not think Sir Kenneth designed the nose of the class 41 no matter what some thought he said. He certainly did do a lot of private aero work to refine to the class 43 and did an excellent job and livery. I doubt that the class 41 and livery would have had the success the class 43 IC125 did.

Personally I'm now convinced he did design both. I read an account of the design of both which left me with no doubt that he did indeed design both the prototype and production hst power car noses.

 

[Domh245]

I still do not think Sir Kenneth designed the nose of the class 41 no matter what some thought he said. He certainly did do a lot of private aero work to refine to the class 43 and did an excellent job and livery. I doubt that the class 41 and livery would have had the success the class 43 IC125 did.

I watched the IC125 programme today and he said it himself to camera - so either Sir Kenneth has contracted dementia or you are wrong.

https://www.my5.tv/intercity-125/season-1/episode-1

from 26:45 in.

 

[daikilo]

I watched the IC125 programme today and he said it himself to camera - so either Sir Kenneth has contracted dementia or you are wrong.

https://www.my5.tv/intercity-125/season-1/episode-1

from 26:45 in.

I doubt he has dementia, but my memory says he did not design the initial Class 41 nose. I do not question that his Class 43 nose and livery was far superior and lead to the success it had.

 

[Domh245]

As per the programme, he didn't design the initial class 41 nose, but he did design the one that actually made it onto the class 41 (and then the production 43 nose). Using screenshots from the programme:

The model he was given to do the paint for

A painted version of the close up of the nose of that model

Tracing paper overlays of the initial cab design and his one for the 41

Wind tunnel model photos, note the profile shot on the right.

 

[hexagon789]

As per the programme, he didn't design the initial class 41 nose, but he did design the one that actually made it onto the class 41 (and then the production 43 nose). Using screenshots from the programme:

The model he was given to do the paint for

A painted version of the close up of the nose of that model

Tracing paper overlays of the initial cab design and his one for the 41

Wind tunnel model photos, note the profile shot on the right.

God that original one is ugly, it looks as though someone took the design insporation from a welder's mask.

 

[Domh245]

God that original one is ugly, it looks as though someone took the design insporation from a welder's mask.

Oddly enough, I think that if you squint at it long enough, it begins to look like a late-60s evolution of a blue pullman - similar shape, but more rounded. I would say it was an evolution of it, but the Blue Pullman was a Metro-Cammel train and thus not something that Derby would have been playing with (I'm assuming).