TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[peter166]

Is there a TPE Fail app. similar to the the Northern Fail app.? If not there ought to be.
It would make monitoring of TPE services so much easier & the true extent of cancelled, part cancelled, short formed trains & sigificant delays much clearer.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If it's such a quick fix where will the 2 units come from to work this? Are these in addition to or instead of the Liverpool services? What about finding drivers and conductors?

For it to work you'd need to split the Liverpool to Scarborough service into two and cancel out the middle section, so that you've got two sections (Liverpool to Manchester and York to Scarborough) using two units on each.

This is instead of having one and constantly late running service, crewing them isn't difficult as you'd use what is at your disposal and that is using crews based at Liverpool, Manchester and Scarborough. I've mentioned it on the Scarborough TPE thread on how it could work for the Scarborough end, I'd imagine similar at the Liverpool end.

 

[nr758123]

Three consecutive Hull-Manchester trains either turned round at Stalybridge or cancelled this evening.

 

[notlob.divad]

For it to work you'd need to split the Liverpool to Scarborough service into two and cancel out the middle section, so that you've got two sections (Liverpool to Manchester and York to Scarborough) using two units on each.

This is instead of having one and constantly late running service, crewing them isn't difficult as you'd use what is at your disposal and that is using crews based at Liverpool, Manchester and Scarborough. I've mentioned it on the Scarborough TPE thread on how it could work for the Scarborough end, I'd imagine similar at the Liverpool end.

If the North TPE timetable is a problem, why should it be the long running through Liverpool to Scarborough service that is sacrificed, rather than the new Manchester Airport to Newcastle.

Secondly, if ~20 minute frequencies are fine for the WCML between London and Manchester/Birmingham. Why can the same philosophy not be used on TPE. Drop one of the express services, but make them clock face between Manchester Victoria and York. I we really saying that the unreliability caused by that 4th fast TPH is worth it to stop people waiting 5 more minutes.

 

[FQTV]

If the North TPE timetable is a problem, why should it be the long running through Liverpool to Scarborough service that is sacrificed, rather than the new Manchester Airport to Newcastle.

Secondly, if ~20 minute frequencies are fine for the WCML between London and Manchester/Birmingham. Why can the same philosophy not be used on TPE. Drop one of the express services, but make them clock face between Manchester Victoria and York. I we really saying that the unreliability caused by that 4th fast TPH is worth it to stop people waiting 5 more minutes.

The Newcastle to the Airport service is technically a reinstatement; its loss a few years ago was keenly-felt in the North East.

I don't think that many would bat an eyelid in Newcastle/Durham/Darlingtonn if a direct to Liverpool were to be dropped.

I'm also not all that sure that many are all that bothered, in the short term, about two trains per hour from the North East to Manchester. The priority is dealing with the other problems affecting rail travel on the route; principally the availability of well-priced tickets and getting a seat. If staff shortages are an issue, then I think doubling-up on an hourly service to and from the North East would make far more sense.

Reviewing the ticketing landscape could make another contribution if Newcastle directs to and from the Airport are unfeasible at the moment.

Currently, the ticketing system conspires to force connections at York and Leeds. No-one with luggage wants to deal with those zoos with platform changes, bridges, subways etc. Advances and promoted connections at Northallerton and Huddersfield would make far more sense, with no platform changes and reduced chances of misconnects.

It wouldn't wholly make up for a loss of an Airport direct, but it could make things an awful lot easier.

It also still wouldn't address my question earlier as to why TP services are currently even losing time on clear ECML runs.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Newcastle to the Airport service is technically a reinstatement; its loss a few years ago was keenly-felt in the North East.

I don't think that many would bat an eyelid in Newcastle/Durham/Darlingtonn if a direct to Liverpool were to be dropped.

But eyelids would be more than batting in Liverpool at the loss of a 2tph at least as far as Leeds.

Reviewing the ticketing landscape could make another contribution if Newcastle directs to and from the Airport are unfeasible at the moment.

Currently, the ticketing system conspires to force connections at York and Leeds. No-one with luggage wants to deal with those zoos with platform changes, bridges, subways etc. Advances and promoted connections at Northallerton and Huddersfield would make far more sense, with no platform changes and reduced chances of misconnects.

It wouldn't wholly make up for a loss of an Airport direct, but it could make things an awful lot easier.

I can agree with that. Ticketing policy seems to be totally around changing at the biggest station or the first station when there are two of equally sized. Thus meaning you quite often end up being directed to change at different stations on the out and return legs of a journey. Instead it should focus on the most convenient change, or at least give you that option.

 

[transmanche]

If the North TPE timetable is a problem, why should it be the long running through Liverpool to Scarborough service that is sacrificed, rather than the new Manchester Airport to Newcastle.

Plenty of Newcastle services have been turned short at Darlington or York, it's not just the Scarborough service that's being affected.

I we really saying that the unreliability caused by that 4th fast TPH is worth it to stop people waiting 5 more minutes.

I wouldn't agree that having 4tph on fast TPE Leeds-Manchester is inherently unreliable. But the current timetable is clearly sub-optimal.

I'm guessing that TPE is doing what all transport operators do in times of disruption: concentrating on the 'core' where the majority of passengers are, at the expense of passengers at the fringes of the network. And that will always happen.

 

[greyman42]

Plenty of Newcastle services have been turned short at Darlington or York, it's not just the Scarborough service that's being affected.

I wouldn't agree that having 4tph on fast TPE Leeds-Manchester is inherently unreliable. But the current timetable is clearly sub-optimal.

I'm guessing that TPE is doing what all transport operators do in times of disruption: concentrating on the 'core' where the majority of passengers are, at the expense of passengers at the fringes of the network. And that will always happen.

What is regarded as the 'core' on TPE?

 

[Ih8earlies]

Plenty of Newcastle services have been turned short at Darlington or York, it's not just the Scarborough service that's being affected.

But the Scarborough services are being effected more because passengers to Seamer/Scarborough have fewer options.

Yes. Many of the Newcastle services are being turned around at Darlington. But there are many trains an hour from York/Darlington to Durham and Newcastle.

Trains to Middlesbrough are being turned around at Northallerton a lot. But passengers for Thornaby and Middlesbrough have the option of travelling via Darlington. (Yarm passengers to Eaglescliffe)

Whereas there is no other rail option for York to Scarborough passengers. (Yes there is a bus, but Coastliner doesn't accept rail tickets)

 

[northernchris]

Many of the Newcastle services are being turned around at Darlington. But there are many trains an hour from York/Darlington to Durham and Newcastle.

Back in the early days of the Voyagers some services were scheduled to terminate at Darlington, so it may work on TPE to help free up a unit.

 

[transmanche]

Yes. Many of the Newcastle services are being turned around at Darlington. But there are many trains an hour from York/Darlington to Durham and Newcastle.

Those other trains are not much use if you have a TOC-specific ticket.

Like I said earlier, when there's disruption that's the price you pay when you're at the periphery of a route or network - you'll always be the first to suffer. It's not specific to TPE, it's not even specific to the railways - the same thing happens on bus routes too. And I'm afraid complaining that you're hard done by compared to other routes won't do much to resolve the situation - the operator (no matter who) will always concentrate their resources on the 'core' of their route/network.

 

[AndrewE]

Those other trains are not much use if you have a TOC-specific ticket.

Like I said earlier, when there's disruption that's the price you pay when you're at the periphery of a route or network - you'll always be the first to suffer. It's not specific to TPE, it's not even specific to the railways - the same thing happens on bus routes too. And I'm afraid complaining that you're hard done by compared to other routes won't do much to resolve the situation - the operator (no matter who) will always concentrate their resources on the 'core' of their route/network.

If you are tipped off a train or your train is cancelled then surely you are entitled to get the next service forward, regardless of what it says on your ticket?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Once again delays between Leeds and Manchester. Boarded the 1749 at Batley (arrived 1756). Held outside Ravensthorpe for several minutes, guard announced it was due to following the Southport service which had passed me at Batley enough ahead of my service to surely get out of the way at Mirfield East junction.

This is a dead timetable. If it hadn't been enforced it'd be pushing up the daisies by now.

 

[northernchris]

This is a dead timetable. If it hadn't been enforced it'd be pushing up the daisies by now.

Whilst the timetable is very unforgiving there's also some questionable decisions being made when services arrive at key locations. Last week at Manchester Airport there was the TPE Middlesbrough and Northern Liverpool South Parkway in and ready to leave on schedule. The Northern Preston service arrives late and is allowed out first despite calling at Heald Green, East Didsbury and Gatley. This then delayed the Liverpool and Middlesbrough services, causing them to arrive late at Piccadilly which in turn caused delays to subsequent services through platform 14.

Same applies for when late TPE services arrive at Leeds. There's been countless times when the Northern stopper for York or Selby has been in and ready to leave only to be delayed to allow 2 or 3 TPE services to leave. Then because the stopper is out of path it then causes the next TPE to catch it up which then delays that service. It seems no matter which service is late any delays soon ripple out to affect many others and this is something which needs urgently addressing

 

[Kieran1990]

The problem for the north tpe route is a lack of suitable passing points. Think I’m the last 7 weeks I’ve had one clear run on my daily commute between Manchester and Leeds.
Observations on a morning Mirfield is such a small section to loop and the Southport (xx21 off Leeds) are usually Pacers and get caught by Class 185 beasts by Dewsbury if they are 2/3min late off Leeds.
A late running semi can’t be looped at Huddersfield because northern peak Piccadilly occupy Platform 4 and Marsden isn’t used to loop either.
My return in the PM is the 17:31 off Victoria 99% of the time we catch the 17:17 stopper off Piccadilly around Mosley/Diggle/Marsden. Sadly the Diggle loop isn’t used- is it ever used come to think about it?
And we can’t loop at Huddersfield because a northern occupys Plat4 awaiting return to Manchester and we then usually from Mirfield crawl to Dewsbury where we loop it. Usually trundle into Leeds min 8L.
I think the operators have tried to implement a new dynamic timetable and it just doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it and TPE seem not to care.

 

[158756]

Same applies for when late TPE services arrive at Leeds. There's been countless times when the Northern stopper for York or Selby has been in and ready to leave only to be delayed to allow 2 or 3 TPE services to leave. Then because the stopper is out of path it then causes the next TPE to catch it up which then delays that service. It seems no matter which service is late any delays soon ripple out to affect many others and this is something which needs urgently addressing

Today it appears late running stoppers have been delaying TPE by importing delays from the Calder Valley - the obvious fix for that would be to just run them Leeds - York/Selby, but do Northern have enough stock? The actual TPE core doesn't seem to have been the origin of too many delays, but there's clearly not enough recovery time either en route or at turnarounds - there's 10 minute delays from Hull or Newcastle still bouncing around hours later. I agree if we're going to have a timetable this ambitious TPE have to be given priority by the signallers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The problem for the north tpe route is a lack of suitable passing points. Think I’m the last 7 weeks I’ve had one clear run on my daily commute between Manchester and Leeds.
Observations on a morning Mirfield is such a small section to loop and the Southport (xx21 off Leeds) are usually Pacers and get caught by Class 185 beasts by Dewsbury if they are 2/3min late off Leeds.
A late running semi can’t be looped at Huddersfield because northern peak Piccadilly occupy Platform 4 and Marsden isn’t used to loop either.
My return in the PM is the 17:31 off Victoria 99% of the time we catch the 17:17 stopper off Piccadilly around Mosley/Diggle/Marsden. Sadly the Diggle loop isn’t used- is it ever used come to think about it?
And we can’t loop at Huddersfield because a northern occupys Plat4 awaiting return to Manchester and we then usually from Mirfield crawl to Dewsbury where we loop it. Usually trundle into Leeds min 8L.
I think the operators have tried to implement a new dynamic timetable and it just doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it and TPE seem not to care.

Agree with much of this, but even so the timetable doesn't even make use of all the passing points available. Mirfield's "overtaking" section (Mirf. East junction to Heaton Lodge) is by far the longest section for overtaking, but is also on the busiest section of line due to the Wakefield and Calder Valley routes converging.

 

[Senex]

I think the operators have tried to implement a new dynamic timetable and it just doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it and TPE seem not to care.

TPE doesn't care, or TPE happy to let chaos reign, no matter what the impact on its passengers, if that gives the chance to shew DfT that what Grayling and his minions specify can't be delivered reliably on the existing infrasturtcure? (DfT still seems to think you can design a timetable utilising pretty well maximum capacity and it will then run perfectly, without any perturbations.)

 

[30907]

If you are tipped off a train or your train is cancelled then surely you are entitled to get the next service forward, regardless of what it says on your ticket?

That's a longstanding subject of debate on here - but In practice that is what is happening (York around 0945 Monday, from observation).

 

[Bevan Price]

TPE doesn't care, or TPE happy to let chaos reign, no matter what the impact on its passengers, if that gives the chance to shew DfT that what Grayling and his minions specify can't be delivered reliably on the existing infrasturtcure? (DfT still seems to think you can design a timetable utilising pretty well maximum capacity and it will then run perfectly, without any perturbations.)

DfT + Railways = Shambles.

 

[EE Andy b1]

DfT + Railways = Shambles.

Don't they keep quoting "Digital Railway" as if that will solve all problems.

We haven't got a chance up North until Grayling and his cohorts are banished to the tower, and i down mean Blackpool.

 

[DFS010]

The problem for the north tpe route is a lack of suitable passing points. Think I’m the last 7 weeks I’ve had one
My return in the PM is the 17:31 off Victoria 99% of the time we catch the 17:17 stopper off Piccadilly around Mosley/Diggle/Marsden. Sadly the Diggle loop isn’t used- is it ever used come to think about it?
And we can’t loop at Huddersfield because a northern occupys Plat4 awaiting return to Manchester and we then usually from Mirfield crawl to Dewsbury where we loop it. Usually trundle into Leeds min 8L.
I think the operators have tried to implement a new dynamic timetable and it just doesn’t have the infrastructure to support it and TPE seem not to care.

Does anyone know why the Diggle loop isn't used?

 

[Eccles1983]

It is used.

I have been in it with a passenger train in the last 2 mths.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Marsden, Greenfield and Stalybridge losing a call on the first off-peak TPE semi-fast due to late running. The sooner someone at DfT bites the bullet and abandons the new timetable, the better.

 

[daikilo]

Marsden, Greenfield and Stalybridge losing a call on the first off-peak TPE semi-fast due to late running. The sooner someone at DfT bites the bullet and abandons the new timetable, the better.

What happens if the timetable is abandoned? The previous one almost certainly won't work at intersections with other TOCs including Northern! The only viable solution is to try to ruggedise it with additional crews and potentially the occasional diagram cancellation to create a spare set that can substitute, but where to hold it?

 

[Kieran1990]

What happens if the timetable is abandoned? The previous one almost certainly won't work at intersections with other TOCs including Northern! The only viable solution is to try to ruggedise it with additional crews and potentially the occasional diagram cancellation to create a spare set that can substitute, but where to hold it?

It would be the ideal solution to do the above because at the moment there is little slack.
The class 185s are digrammed heavily, even more so when Lime St re-opens.
2 out on hire to Northern.
The Mk3’s aren’t happening.
Mk5’s won’t be in service until Oct/Nov at the earliest.

How are the Class 185s fairing with so little slack? I’ve not seen many short firmed or failures declared.

 

[pdq]

A new compensation scheme has been announced at https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/may-timetable-compensation

From Monday 23 July, an additional compensation scheme will be available for TransPennine Express customers who experienced disruption as part of the May 2018 timetable change.

What compensation will TransPennine Express be offering?

• We will be offering a week’s compensation to customers whose journeys were disrupted between 20 May – 30 June.

Who is eligible to claim?

• Customers with a TransPennine Express season ticket travelling on specified routes are eligible for compensation through the scheme. Multi-modal and zonal tickets are also eligible

What routes will be covered?

• All journeys to / from stations along our following routes will be eligible:
  • Manchester Airport to Lancaster
  • Liverpool to Scarborough
  • Liverpool to Newcastle
  • Manchester Airport – Middlesbrough
  • Manchester Piccadilly – Hull
  • Manchester Piccadilly – Leeds

How much compensation will I be entitled to?

• You will be entitled to one week’s worth of the value of your season ticket. This will be calculated as follows:
  • Annual season ticket value divided by 40
  • Monthly season ticket value divided by 4
  • 100% of the value of a weekly ticket
  • Other season ticket lengths will be calculated on a case by case basis

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pleased to see multi-modal tickets are covered, presumably this will include West Yorkshire MCards?
Though I hope they aren't expecting proof of actual delay being experienced, as the lack of barriers (or lack of barriers in use) means no log of my card being used.

MCards are also transferable, which rather complicates things! In theory there's nothing so stop an MCard holder who lives in Ilkley, commutes to Wakefield, and never uses TPE, from putting in a claim.

 

[pdq]

We'll see what happens with M-Cards when I put my claim in. I use my annual 2-5 card almost exclusively for commuting between Batley and Huddersfield - so if there are records of use over the year it will certainly show plenty of in/out at Huddersfield, even if not for that week when, as you say, the barriers were largely locked open. My current card cost me £952.85, so I would expect to get £23.82 back based on their formula.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We'll see what happens with M-Cards when I put my claim in. I use my annual 2-5 card almost exclusively for commuting between Batley and Huddersfield - so if there are records of use over the year it will certainly show plenty of in/out at Huddersfield, even if not for that week when, as you say, the barriers were largely locked open. My current card cost me £952.85, so I would expect to get £23.82 back based on their formula.

I'm on a monthly 2-5, costing £111.40p. Using their formula (If I'm not making a massive schoolboy error!) I'll receive £27.85 which would seem rather harsh on those like yourself using annual passes.