TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[Greybeard33]

06:50 Leeds to Manchester Airport today is the first time I've been on an on time service round the chord (admittedly this isn't my usual morning train).

Also first time I've got from Victoria to Oxford Road without stopping at any signals.

TPE North PPM does seem to be on an improving trend. The August average to date is 72.7%, compared with 67% for June and only 65.6% for July. Possibly related to Lime Street reopening?

But still way down on last summer, when it was hovering around 90% under the old TPE 5tph timetable.

It is ironic that, when DfT and Rail North first proposed the 6tph timetable, in the Stakeholder Briefing Document and Consultation Response of 2015, the aim was to improve punctuality and reliability performance:

We are also clear there is a need to improve upon today’s service pattern to improve punctuality and reliability performance as soon as possible before the electrification infrastructure can be delivered. We cannot be confident that the route can accommodate more trains than it does today without risking a significant further drop in performance. We are therefore requiring bidders to assume that from December 2017, some Northern services will no longer be required to run and calls to the affected stations will be picked up by TPE trains instead, with TPE running six trains per hour.

 

[northernchris]

There has been a bit of an increase in infrastructure / trespass issues of late, so although the new timetable isn't as resilient I suspect if the old timetable had remained PPM would have been lower than this time last year

 

[Solent&Wessex]

TPE North PPM does seem to be on an improving trend. The August average to date is 72.7%, compared with 67% for June and only 65.6% for July. Possibly related to Lime Street reopening?

But still way down on last summer, when it was hovering around 90% under the old TPE 5tph timetable.

It is ironic that, when DfT and Rail North first proposed the 6tph timetable, in the Stakeholder Briefing Document and Consultation Response of 2015, the aim was to improve punctuality and reliability performance:

But there are no more trains under this timetable. There always were 6tph - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern. Now there are just 6 x TPE as the stopping train has transferred. It's the timing and spacing of the trains which is wrong and causing the issue.

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

 

[nr758123]

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

Can I ask what your source is for this?

 

[Greybeard33]

But there are no more trains under this timetable. There always were 6tph - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern. Now there are just 6 x TPE as the stopping train has transferred. It's the timing and spacing of the trains which is wrong and causing the issue.

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

By the '6tph timetable' I meant 6 through TPE trains between Manchester and Leeds, with the 4 fasts at even 15 minute spacing. Under the previous timetable the Northern stopper was Manchester - Huddersfield only, with the 5 through TPEs irregularly spaced to allow a big enough 'window' for it.

Hopefully the changes you describe will improve reliability, although I wonder if there will be a big enough window for the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper, if the spacing of the Newcastles/Scarborough/Middlesbrough stays as is.

 

[Kieran1990]

But there are no more trains under this timetable. There always were 6tph - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern. Now there are just 6 x TPE as the stopping train has transferred. It's the timing and spacing of the trains which is wrong and causing the issue.

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

Well I hope these plans come to fruition and give some much needed slack to North TPE route and us suffering folk.
It’ll be interesting to see how a split stopper and northern extras will all be platformed at Huddersfield during the peaks if the above goes ahead.

 

[dilbertphil]

Can I ask what your source is for this?

TPE issued an internal message today about the proposed changes to the timetable.

 

[158756]

Hopefully the changes you describe will improve reliability, although I wonder if there will be a big enough window for the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper, if the spacing of the Newcastles/Scarborough/Middlesbrough stays as is.

If it's split at Huddersfield, the stopper can leave Huddersfield earlier (westbound) or arrive later (eastbound) than now, as it currently has to coordinate with being passed between Huddersfield and Leeds. That would allow one stop at least to be transferred from the Hull service, which should in turn make that more reliable.

Platforms are an interesting problem - at peak times the Northern extras are booked to occupy 4B, the Sheffield train occupies 2 (is it long enough anyway?), 1 and 8 are obviously out. It might work if the stopper is moved around the clock somewhere - the fast trains are evenly spaced so it could equally go in any of the gaps, and just splitting on the current times either side of Huddersfield would be an inefficient use of stock (though TPE could be said to be using their stock too efficiently at present).

 

[yorkguy]

Waiting for the 21.21 TPE Scarborough service at Leeds the other night it came in 11 late at 21.32. By then the the 21.23 Northern stopper to York had gone out. So we followed at a crawl all the way. By the time my TPE service got to York it was 20+ minutes late. Given there’s a 2 minute window between these services, I wonder if smooth running is ever achieved, or for how long they’ll hold the Northern so TPE can get in front? Just too tight to be workable even at that time of night

 

[Bantamzen]

But there are no more trains under this timetable. There always were 6tph - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern. Now there are just 6 x TPE as the stopping train has transferred. It's the timing and spacing of the trains which is wrong and causing the issue.

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

Sounds like a reasonable set of solutions, splitting the stoppers has long been mooted as one possible solution, getting them out of the way ways the fasts and semi fasts sooner. I'm sure the Hull passengers would be happy to see fewer stops too, unless of course there is huge flow demand to the stations that might be dropped from Hull, and I guess the extra unit can be made available as the result of (hopefully) the MKV stock entering service?

The only slight shame is that the stopper / Hull changes can't be implemented sooner, as I do think it would help recovery. I presume that both stoppers would use P4 at Huddersfield, so would there be any negative implications for Northern's Wakefield & Leeds via Brighouse services? I guess not with the right timings for the hourly service?

 

[Greybeard33]

If it's split at Huddersfield, the stopper can leave Huddersfield earlier (westbound) or arrive later (eastbound) than now, as it currently has to coordinate with being passed between Huddersfield and Leeds. That would allow one stop at least to be transferred from the Hull service, which should in turn make that more reliable.

Platforms are an interesting problem - at peak times the Northern extras are booked to occupy 4B, the Sheffield train occupies 2 (is it long enough anyway?), 1 and 8 are obviously out. It might work if the stopper is moved around the clock somewhere - the fast trains are evenly spaced so it could equally go in any of the gaps, and just splitting on the current times either side of Huddersfield would be an inefficient use of stock (though TPE could be said to be using their stock too efficiently at present).

Hmm. Eastbound the stopper is currently scheduled to arrive at Huddersfield 8 minutes before the Scarborough train, but it is often delayed at Stalybridge waiting for the late running Airport to Middlesbrough. Even now the delay is sometimes long enough that the Scarborough catches up before Huddersfield, and the risk of that will increase if the stopper makes additional calls at Mossley and/or Slaithwaite.

As long as the Airport services still have the (ridiculously short) 10 minute turnround time at the Airport, I cannot see how their eastbound punctuality is going to improve markedly.

The risk of delays to the eastbound stopper might be reduced if it could be moved round the clock to follow an ex-Liverpool train, which is more likely to be punctual, instead of an ex-Airport. But are suitable paths available between Piccadilly and Guide Bridge, without also altering the timings of the Northern services to Hadfield/Rose Hill Marple/New Mills Central?

 

[AndrewE]

As long as the Airport services still have the (ridiculously short) 10 minute turnround time at the Airport, I cannot see how their eastbound punctuality is going to improve markedly.

Hasn't someone quoted a report that TPE are going to put an extra unit in to make the airport turn-rounds 40 mins instead of 10?

 

[Jonny]

The Newcastle turnarounds on the Manchester Airport services could also benefit from time lengthening. There is often only a few minutes, especially on a delayed inbound... such as near enough every one that I have experienced. Often reservations are not placed and one occasion, I have seen reservation tickets placed sneakily behind passengers' backs.

 

[Foxcover]

Not a good day today at the Liverpool end of TPE.
-1235 arrival from Scarborough running 40 mins late, 1256 to Scarborough cancelled
- 1302 arrival from Newcastle cancelled, 1335 return to Newcastle cancelled
-1335 arrival from Scarborough cancelled, return on time presumably using the late running unit that would have run the 1256.

Never thought I would be glad to find myself in the oasis of EM Trains on the slow line to Mcr via Warrington Central!

 

[BMIFlyer]

Not a good day today at the Liverpool end of TPE.
-1235 arrival from Scarborough running 40 mins late, 1256 to Scarborough cancelled
- 1302 arrival from Newcastle cancelled, 1335 return to Newcastle cancelled
-1335 arrival from Scarborough cancelled, return on time presumably using the late running unit that would have run the 1256.

Never thought I would be glad to find myself in the oasis of EM Trains on the slow line to Mcr via Warrington Central!

Because a Northern train had failed at Wavertree Tech Park. Awaiting rescue.

It was the 1101 from Blackpool to Liverpool.

 

[Foxcover]

Because a Northern train had failed at Wavertree Tech Park. Awaiting rescue.

It was the 1101 from Blackpool to Liverpool.

Thank you - assumed it was the timetable still, good to know it was just local.

 

[Philip]

Not strictly on topic, but to save starting a new thread...does anyone know why the Cleethorpes only uses the slow line between Manchester and Stockport?

 

[pemma]

Not strictly on topic, but to save starting a new thread...does anyone know why the Cleethorpes only uses the slow line between Manchester and Stockport?

You mean in the southbound direction? Services towards Hazel Grove use the slow, services towards Altrincham use the fast to prevent services switching lines at Stockport, other services can use either but obviously Virgin services are always booked to use the fasts.

 

[Philip]

Both ways really. That works for southbound services but northbound Cleethorpes-Manchester services cross all lines at Edgeley to go into platform 4 and the slow line. Why don't they go into the fast platform 3, this would mean crossing one less line at Edgeley?

 

[pemma]

Both ways really. That works for southbound services but northbound Cleethorpes-Manchester services cross all lines at Edgeley to go into platform 4 and the slow line. Why don't they go into the fast platform 3, this would mean crossing one less line at Edgeley?

There's a Virgin service 3 minutes behind the northbound service so that might affect which line it runs on.

 

[Greybeard33]

Both ways really. That works for southbound services but northbound Cleethorpes-Manchester services cross all lines at Edgeley to go into platform 4 and the slow line. Why don't they go into the fast platform 3, this would mean crossing one less line at Edgeley?

The westbound service normally reverses in Platform 9 at Piccadilly, to depart for the Airport without crossing the throat. Approaching from Stockport on the slows enables it to get to P9 with a minimum of conflicts.

 

[noddingdonkey]

If it's split at Huddersfield, the stopper can leave Huddersfield earlier (westbound) or arrive later (eastbound) than now, as it currently has to coordinate with being passed between Huddersfield and Leeds. That would allow one stop at least to be transferred from the Hull service, which should in turn make that more reliable.

Platforms are an interesting problem - at peak times the Northern extras are booked to occupy 4B, the Sheffield train occupies 2 (is it long enough anyway?), 1 and 8 are obviously out. It might work if the stopper is moved around the clock somewhere - the fast trains are evenly spaced so it could equally go in any of the gaps, and just splitting on the current times either side of Huddersfield would be an inefficient use of stock (though TPE could be said to be using their stock too efficiently at present).

P2 only has access to the Sheffield branch, so 4B is the only place that turnbacks could go. As the Northern stopper is going to the same place, I suspect that with some creative timetabling it could be accommodated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well I hope these plans come to fruition and give some much needed slack to North TPE route and us suffering folk.
It’ll be interesting to see how a split stopper and northern extras will all be platformed at Huddersfield during the peaks if the above goes ahead.

If it's split at Huddersfield, the stopper can leave Huddersfield earlier (westbound) or arrive later (eastbound) than now, as it currently has to coordinate with being passed between Huddersfield and Leeds. That would allow one stop at least to be transferred from the Hull service, which should in turn make that more reliable.

Platforms are an interesting problem - at peak times the Northern extras are booked to occupy 4B, the Sheffield train occupies 2 (is it long enough anyway?), 1 and 8 are obviously out. It might work if the stopper is moved around the clock somewhere - the fast trains are evenly spaced so it could equally go in any of the gaps, and just splitting on the current times either side of Huddersfield would be an inefficient use of stock (though TPE could be said to be using their stock too efficiently at present).

Sounds like a reasonable set of solutions, splitting the stoppers has long been mooted as one possible solution, getting them out of the way ways the fasts and semi fasts sooner. I'm sure the Hull passengers would be happy to see fewer stops too, unless of course there is huge flow demand to the stations that might be dropped from Hull, and I guess the extra unit can be made available as the result of (hopefully) the MKV stock entering service?

The only slight shame is that the stopper / Hull changes can't be implemented sooner, as I do think it would help recovery. I presume that both stoppers would use P4 at Huddersfield, so would there be any negative implications for Northern's Wakefield & Leeds via Brighouse services? I guess not with the right timings for the hourly service?

Apologies for quoting a few long messages, am on mobile so I'm struggling to edit them down without messing up the tags...

Anyway, splitting the stopper at Huddersfield seems a sensible idea, though I'm less happy about the Hull service losing a call as I'm certain that call would be Batley- a big loss but then BTL seems to be the biggest loser under the current timetable. The only place with more stops per hour than before is Ravensthorpe which is far and away the least-used on the line and has been for years.

Re: platforms at Huddersfield, one option would be to send the Wakefield service to P5, with the Bradford service and Leeds half of the split stopper using 4a or 6 as required (P4 can take 3x23m either side of the a/b split and the Northern stopper to Manchester is peak-only anyway). The downside being that this would limit the Wakefield service to a 150/153, or more likely a 2-car Pacer. That said, since it was curtailed to Kirkgate that should be more than enough capacity anyway. It only became a 3-car 144 at the timetable change, just as the main reason for the service (intercity connections at Westgate) was removed.

 

[Philip]

The westbound service normally reverses in Platform 9 at Piccadilly, to depart for the Airport without crossing the throat. Approaching from Stockport on the slows enables it to get to P9 with a minimum of conflicts.

What is the speed of the slow line from Stockport?

The speed capabilities of 185s on both the North and South routes is wasted in general; South TPE with its SP speeds badly affects the 185 performance and North TPE has a low top speed because of the geography of the route. At least when they worked North West express and Scotland services they ran a fair length of the journey at top speed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What is the speed of the slow line from Stockport?

The speed capabilities of 185s on both the North and South routes is wasted in general; South TPE with its SP speeds badly affects the 185 performance and North TPE has a low top speed because of the geography of the route. At least when they worked North West express and Scotland services they ran a fair length of the journey at top speed.

They're tailor-made for the North Transpennine route- lack of non-sprinter restrictions on the route allowed their heavy axle-load, and their fast (for a DMU) acceleration away from the slower sections was specified when they were ordered. High linespeed aren't needed, just remove or minimise the slower sections.

 

[Greybeard33]

What is the speed of the slow line from Stockport?

The speed capabilities of 185s on both the North and South routes is wasted in general; South TPE with its SP speeds badly affects the 185 performance and North TPE has a low top speed because of the geography of the route. At least when they worked North West express and Scotland services they ran a fair length of the journey at top speed.

Slows 75, fasts have some stretches of 90 south of Longsight. But minimal difference in journey time - the restrictions over the junctions and crossovers are more important. 9 minutes Stockport to Piccadilly for a 185 on the slows, same as for a 390 or 22x on the fasts.

 

[noddingdonkey]

If they do split the stopper, there's going to be a pr exercise required, as direct Leeds services was one of the alleged benefits of the skip-stop pattern West of Huddersfield.

That said, it was also said that in the event of the train that was supposed to stop being cancelled the next tpe service to pass through would call instead, which doesn't seem to have happened.

 

[td97]

What was the disruption at Manchester Victoria last night, from approximately 2220? TP and NT services were affected; 9M18 (29L), 9E22 (34L) and 1H33 (22L) for example

 

[pemma]

The westbound service normally reverses in Platform 9 at Piccadilly, to depart for the Airport without crossing the throat. Approaching from Stockport on the slows enables it to get to P9 with a minimum of conflicts.

I thought that might be the case as well but didn't say it as I wasn't sure.

 

[pemma]

Re: platforms at Huddersfield, one option would be to send the Wakefield service to P5

I sure I once heard only a 153 or 2 car Pacer can use platform 5. If that is the case Network Rail should do something about it ahead of Northern releasing their 142s and 153s.