TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[Kieran1990]

The Marsden loop seems to be closed at the moment, which is making regulating trains a lot more difficult. Have been stuck behind a late stopper all the way to Stalybridge.

The loops either side of the tunnel (Marsden or Diggle) aren’t used in practice in the day to day. The stopper (Manchester bound) is looped at Heaton Lodge. Don’t think since May I’ve ever seen platform 3/ the loop at Marsden used. Seen Diggle used once or twice though.

I think Marsden will be used during the peaks from December to hold the northern peak extra’s wait in, that then allows Platform 4 to be used at Huddersfield by the split stopper

 

[yorksrob]

The loops either side of the tunnel (Marsden or Diggle) aren’t used in practice in the day to day. The stopper (Manchester bound) is looped at Heaton Lodge. Don’t think since May I’ve ever seen platform 3/ the loop at Marsden used. Seen Diggle used once or twice though.

I think Marsden will be used during the peaks from December to hold the northern peak extra’s wait in, that then allows Platform 4 to be used at Huddersfield by the split stopper

That's interesting. I've seen them extending platform 3 at Marsden so it must be in use. I wondered if it had been blocked due to the work going on at the Eastern portal at Standedge. Today was definitely the time to use it. We went from being two minutes behind at Huddersfield to at least fifteen late at Victoria !

 

[Kieran1990]

That's interesting. I've seen them extending platform 3 at Marsden so it must be in use. I wondered if it had been blocked due to the work going on at the Eastern portal at Standedge. Today was definitely the time to use it. We went from being two minutes behind at Huddersfield to at least fifteen late at Victoria !

I have seen that to on my morning commute across the Pennines. Could be linked to 6 car class 185 operation on the stopping services in the long term.

Yes this evening, my 17:31 off Vic left 3/4 late- 25L into Leeds as we followed the 17:17 off Vic (14L) But both expresses behind the 17:17 Picc-Leeds Stopper. Stopper could have been looped at Diggle by both expresses but the opportunity was missed. But there could have been other factors effecting why.

 

[yorksrob]

I have seen that to on my morning commute across the Pennines. Could be linked to 6 car class 185 operation on the stopping services in the long term.

Yes this evening, my 17:31 off Vic left 3/4 late- 25L into Leeds as we followed the 17:17 off Vic (14L) But both expresses behind the 17:17 Picc-Leeds Stopper. Stopper could have been looped at Diggle by both expresses but the opportunity was missed. But there could have been other factors effecting why.

Indeed. There may be calls for new/enhanced infrastructure, however we should start by using that which we already have !

 

[Bevan Price]

The problem with Diggle (and in some ways Marsden and Dewsbury) is that the signalling is not set up for it to happen regularly. So it takes forever, with a crawl behind as the trains are slow on the approach without a route out the other end of the loop. Mirfield in the other direction is much better mainly due to the length of the loop but also because trains can enter the 'Loop'on greens.

The signalling system is designed to force trains to slow down over junctions if there is a big drop in permitted speed over that junction.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The loop/P3 At Marsden was in regular use under the old timetable. I was under the impression that it sees very little use these days, which isn't great from an accessibility point-of-view. If they're extending P3 maybe blockading it made sense in theory, as it's seldom used and blocking it allows the extension work to go unhindered. Hopefully once the changes come in (splitting the stopper) P3 can be the regular platform for Westbound services again.

 

[Spartacus]

I think there were a few 'issues' with platform 3 preventing trains from using it, even if not booked, one would hope they are being corrected while it's being extended. While there's no passenger services booked to use the platform there are still freights booked to use the loop.

 

[JamesBallymoss]

Platform 3 at Marsden isn’t blocked and is used daily. 2M71 recesses 0611-0620 to allow 1P10 past at 0614.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Platform 3 at Marsden isn’t blocked and is used daily. 2M71 recesses 0611-0620 to allow 1P10 past at 0614.

Is that one of the Northern peak extras? Could be an issue with clearances for 185s then...

 

[JamesBallymoss]

Is that one of the Northern peak extras? Could be an issue with clearances for 185s then...

Yes it is. I did wonder if it was a 185 specific issue but a couple of weeks ago a late running Hull - Man P service was terminated at Hudds and the set ran ecs to Marsden p3 to wait before returning to Hudds to pick up its path working back to Hull.

 

[MikeWM]

I did a NW Rover a few weeks back and there seemed to still be an awful lot of problems.

- Animals on the line near Durham seemed to collapse the entire service. It took me four trains to get from Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly.

• - The first one was so packed I physically couldn't get on.
• - The stopper then was finishing short at Stalybridge. I changed at Huddersfield.
• - The next one was for Liverpool Lime Street, but finished short at Manchester Victoria.
• - The next one was for Manchester Airport, took about 15 minutes to get around the Ordsall curve and finished short at Piccadilly.

- Later in the week I tried to get back from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds.

• - The first train (around 1615) was packed to the rafters. Again it took a long while to get around the Ordsall curve. I bailed at Victoria as it was uncomfortably busy even before all the passengers got on there.
• - The next one was originally on-time, but took 15 minutes (!) to get between Eccles and the platform at Victoria. (I've never before stood on a station and heard almost non-stop 'we're sorry' announcements about delays to just about every single train for a whole 15 minutes). We then got stuck behind a stopper after Huddersfield.

Is this the 'new normal' or was I unlucky? Even when I wasn't trying to travel I was looking at the performance of these services, and it really didn't look good. (I also had some issues with TPE on the WCML route, but that's probably not for this thread).

It seems to me that the west end of both Manchester routes is so massively conflicted that it is more or less impossible for the timetable to work. And the Ordsall curve just makes things even worse by combining the two bottlenecks.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's the new normal I'm afraid.
TPE's main focus is, rightly, the medium-long distance markets... as a result when things inevitably go wrong it's the stoppers that get canned. This probably lowers the damage to their PPM but leaves people with an hour's delay rather than the 15mins delay caused by waiting for the next fast.

As you say, you bailed at Victoria due to overcrowding at one point. For Batley passengers that isn't an option really, particularly if travelling to Mirfield for example. Even if it's a sardine situation, I have to simply get my head down and force my way on.

Still not happy about losing the slightly faster Hull service as proposed, nor the distinct lack of the promised SSOs (Special Stop Orders) when things go buttock-over-bosom.

 

[nr758123]

It's the new normal I'm afraid.

Agreed. It wasn't a big ask for TPE to be less inept than Northern were. That was setting the bar really low. They failed.

TPE's main focus is, rightly, the medium-long distance markets... as a result when things inevitably go wrong it's the stoppers that get canned. This probably lowers the damage to their PPM but leaves people with an hour's delay rather than the 15mins delay caused by waiting for the next fast.

Not something which I see as fair or reasonable, and even less so when consecutive hourly trains are cancelled. Only yesterday Marsden saw just one eastbound train stopping in a six hour period, though plenty of TPEs trains passed through without stopping in that period. Passengers asking for stop orders get ignored, though it should happen as a matter of course without them having to ask.

A couple of Yorkshire Post articles describing what we have been experiencing since 20th May. Cllr Walker's description of us as the forgotten passengers seems very apt.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...-is-hitting-tourism-in-colne-valley-1-9291358

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...en-in-the-trans-pennine-rail-crisis-1-9344627

the distinct lack of the promised SSOs (Special Stop Orders) when things go buttock-over-bosom.

TPE were very keen to reference Stop Orders and increased reliability when trying to sell the advantages (and play down the disadvantages) of the new timetable.

 

[Kite159]

Is that one of the Northern peak extras? Could be an issue with clearances for 185s then...

Isn't P3 at Marsden quite short (i.e. 2 coaches only)? Could be something to do with the lack of SDO on the 185s as it will be local door only?

 

[nr758123]

Use of P2 at Marsden is because it saves 1½ minutes compared to going into the P3 loop.

 

[yorksrob]

Use of P2 at Marsden is because it saves 1½ minutes compared to going into the P3 loop.

Which is counter-productive if it ends up adding twenty minutes on the following express service.

 

[nr758123]

Which is counter-productive if it ends up adding twenty minutes on the following express service.

The whole timetable is a farce. Why should this be any different?

 

[yorksrob]

The whole timetable is a farce. Why should this be any different?

There's not much that can be done about Deansgate - Piccaddilly for the timebeing, but if you've got a bit of infrastructure there that can mitigate something, why not use it.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s interesting how Transpennine Express have basically got away with the chaos.

The situation on Northern has been mentioned hundreds of times in the media, locally, nationally, politicians have been questioned on it, Grayling, Corbyn, even the PM have got involved.

For every hundred times Northern has been metioned, TPE has been mentioned about twice. I wonder why.

 

[Greybeard33]

It’s interesting how Transpennine Express have basically got away with the chaos.

The situation on Northern has been mentioned hundreds of times in the media, locally, nationally, politicians have been questioned on it, Grayling, Corbyn, even the PM have got involved.

For every hundred times Northern has been metioned, TPE has been mentioned about twice. I wonder why.

The Performance Update report for the TfN Rail North Committee meeting of 9th October 2018 can be downloaded from https://transportforthenorth.com/calendar/rail-north-committee-9-october-2018/. In part it states:

5. TransPennine Express Performance Public Performance Measure
5.1 TPE’s seven-day average Public Performance Measure (PPM) averaged 62.9% in the first two weeks of the new timetable, prior to the introduction of Northern’s interim timetable. From 4th June to 29th July, the interim timetable ran at an average of 68.5% PPM.
5.2 In the last 4 weeks (30th August to 26th September) PPM has averaged 75.6%. This compares to a year ago when in September 2017 the average PPM figure was 90.3%. The last week was particularly affected by severe weather conditions.
Cancellations
5.3 In the last 4 weeks (30th August to 26th September), an average of 37 TPE services were cancelled (or part cancelled) each day, with 66% of these being caused by Network Rail / other operators.
Short Formations
5.4 TPE services have seen an increase in short formations, with Period 5 (22nd July to 18th August) showing 44 short formations. The increase in the latest few periods has been largely caused by fleet issues, exacerbated by the extra train mileage required to run the May 2018 timetable.
6. Next Steps
6.2 TPE have planned to implement a number of performance improvement measures from December 2018, focused on the North TransPennine Route (where performance has been lowest). These proposals are being progressed through industry systems.
6.3 The Rail North Committee members have been clear that current performance is not acceptable and that the industry should have a joined-up plan for restoring performance, underpinned by detailed analysis of the causes of current issues (including the overall capability of the network and key pinch points).
6.4 Following calls from the TfN Board for an Independent Person to oversee the performance recovery, Richard George has been appointed. Richard’s terms of reference are in the process of being finalised and he will work closely with TfN and make regular reports to the TfN Board.

So TPE has not "got away with the chaos" as far as TfN is concerned. The December 2018 improvement measures, detailed in the Update on Train Service Planning report to the committee, are:

For TransPennine Express (TPE) the December 2018 timetable will continue the Train Service Requirement 2 (TSR2) structure as implemented in May 2018. However, the Leeds to Manchester stopping service will be split at Huddersfield, to resolve some of the delays resulting from tight planning margins. In addition, turnround times at Manchester Airport will be extended through the insertion of an extra train unit into the circuits.

That implies interworking of the Newcastle and Middlesbrough services at the Airport, to give turnround times of approx. 40 minutes instead of the current 10 minutes. But it also implies a delay to the replacement of 185s on these services. I believe TPE's crew training plan for the new trains was to use only 802s on the Newcastles and only Mk5As on the Middlesbroughs.

 

[wellhouse]

Could be linked to 6 car class 185 operation on the stopping services in the long term.

The platform extensions at stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge are sufficient only for 4-car Class 150s.These stations are still managed by Northern rather than TPE, and it has been suggested that once the Route Upgrade is implemented, DFT envisages re-introduction of local stoppers provided by Northern.

I have seen a 6-car 185 service stop at the extended Slaithwaite platform.

 

[185143]

Isn't P3 at Marsden quite short (i.e. 2 coaches only)? Could be something to do with the lack of SDO on the 185s as it will be local door only?

Platform 2 is also local door only now at Marsden. I took a trip to Huddersfield on Sunday, and the guard explained that there was a new rule so now local door only.

I was on an 'Ull service to Huddersfield-so no idea if the same applies to platform 1.

 

[Kite159]

Platform 2 is also local door only now at Marsden. I took a trip to Huddersfield on Sunday, and the guard explained that there was a new rule so now local door only.

I was on an 'Ull service to Huddersfield-so no idea if the same applies to platform 1.

Low platform? (A bit like when a 185 calls at Kents Bank (I think) which is local door only due to the low platform even though all 3 coaches fit)

 

[scarby]

The TPE Scarborough-York service has been a daily disaster since the timetable change. There was a thread on this forum but Ithink people gave up reporting the same daily delays and cancellations.

I used to enjoy traveling on the branch - it was reliable and easy.

Now it is just an unreliable mess. Needless to say, random daily cancellations of an hourly service have the potential for big delays.

I used to use the service quite often for Manchester Airport. Understanding that it’s a fair journey I would plan to arrive at Manchester Airport 2 hr 45 mins before departure, which allowed for delays. Many check-ins don’t open until 2 hr 30min before departure so it is pointless arriving earlier. I actually found TPE reliable and pleasant.

Now with the cancellations it is a lottery - a cancellation plus delays en route has the potential to turn that 2 hr 45 min into a tight hour. Obviously I don’t want to have to plan to get to the airport nearly 4 hours before the flight just because TPE is hopeless.

I could use another airport but the problem of getting from Scarborough to York remains, so there is no practical way of avoiding the Transpennine Express nightmare.

It was obvious after just a few days that the new timetable didn’t work but the problems haven’t been tackled. Any commercial business behaving like this would simply lose all its customers.

 

[30907]

Mods, if this is on the wrong thread please move it.
The apparent policy of prioritising on time trains had poor consequences for TPE this morning. Admittedly TPE was generally in a mess but...
The 0924 stopper from Leeds to York ran RT.
The 0921 Scarborough was 7 late at Leeds.As a result of following the slow it was +17 approaching York, and platform 5 was occupied by an up LNER, not unreasonably.
Result, +26 at Malton and the back working is already +15. So at least 35 min additional delay.
Had the stopper been held to follow the fast, it would have been +5 at York, within PPM and in good time for its next working, while the Scarborough would have lost no further time and returned RT from the coast.
And I might have caught an earlier bus to Pickering, but I wasn't banking on it and at least there's a nice cafe here ...

 

[northernchris]

The problem with that is if the Northern stopper is held it would then delay the xx:37 Newcastle from Leeds as this would catch it up by York. Assuming both the stopper and Newcastle were on time at Leeds it then leads to 3 services being late. As the Scarborough train was already late IMO it makes sense to delay that one further

I've contacted Network Rail about this, as it appears as though some bizarre regulation was taking place at times, their response was their train regulation policy has the objective of protecting on time trains and to minimise the spread of reactionary delays although there will always be occasions when late running services will be given priority.

The North Transpennine timetable is clearly unworkable though, and there seems to be a lot of delays which are being picked up on the Castlefield corridor which then causes congestion at Victoria, Leeds and York impacting many more services

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've known both the Leeds stopper and the Hull semi to be held at Huddersfield in both directions (down services held in P8 while a following fast overtakes using P4; up services sent into 4b allowing a fast to overtake in P1). I've also had 2 fasts overtake a stopper between Mirfield East and Heaton Lodge junctions, rather than the usual 1.

 

[30907]

The problem with that is if the Northern stopper is held it would then delay the xx:37 Newcastle from Leeds as this would catch it up by York. Assuming both the stopper and Newcastle were on time at Leeds it then leads to 3 services being late. As the Scarborough train was already late IMO it makes sense to delay that one further

The Newcastle was stuck behind the Scarborough anyway and terminated York +12.
Interestingly, at 1521/1524 ex Leeds the fast at +5 got a clear run, meaning my train home from Malton was RT. The following Newcastle was delayed 3 minutes or so.
But I realise there is often no perfect solution, and the timetable is simply too tight.

 

[scarby]

I need to travel from Scarborough to Manchester Airport next month and I am seriously considering taking the bus for part of the journey - to Malton at the very least, or even York, even though it is scheduled to take twice as long as the train.

Looking over the recent weekday services, on Oct 9 the 10.46 departure was cancelled, Oct 10 the 09.46 cancelled, on Oct 12 both the 08.46 and 10.46 were cancelled and the 11.46 was terminated at York 18 late, on Oct 15 the 08.46 was cancelled again, as was the 11.46, and today Oct 16 the 08.46 was cancelled yet again, as was the 10.46.

Therefore it's totally down to chance whether one's train is there or not, leaving the prospect of being an hour behind schedule from the very outset and the stress of wondering if the following train will show.

What was a perfectly good service has been wrecked and nothing has been done about it for nearly half a year despite daily weekday cancellations, delays and trains terminating short of their scheduled destination.

 

[td97]

Perhaps expectedly, TPE have promoted Oxford Rd to the honour of station with most delayed/cancelled rail services across the UK (68%, 77% at peak times), whilst also extending the privilege of being in the top 10 to Victoria (55%) and Piccadilly (60%).

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/10/tardy-trains-revealed-is-your-station-britains-most-disrupted/