woodhouse122
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dissapointing that the strike on july 21st is the same day as the crewe DRS open day 
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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northernchris
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That would be the best outcome. I noticed a sign at Bradford this morning saying talks are being held next Tuesday so fingers crossed some progress is made
I think a lot of footplate staff would consider that they will be affected.
A’s did the RMT during the decades prior to Mick Cash becoming leader .
Got to say, you couldn't be more wrong on that one. It will affect us massively.
What impact will it have on you then? As I'm only going from experience of DOO and they have been implemented with the support of Aslef.
If he is a non DOO Driver then he will have to work DOO. That is a direct impact. It will change his terms and conditions of employment, increase his workload and fatigue, and increase his incident risk.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Based on his previous posts @driver_m doesn't work for Northern and works for a TOC who operates a driver opens, guard closes procedure.
That makes sense however I think the point I meant was it wouldn't decrease their membership like it would for the RMT in the long term. Also as long as they had longer rest periods and more training I dont see a problem. They are still in a job and as long as health and safety is taken into account then its fine.
ASLEF has continually made a promise to its members that they would not support, endorse, or sign up to any increase in DOO. If they agreed DOO then they will lose members. I would agree that in the long term I doubt that it would have a great impact as the benefit of the union doesn't lean towards its DOO policy.
YOU don't see a problem but many of us who drive DOO see many problems. We also see a compromise in safety on a regular basis when it comes to DOO. Even amongst its members DOO is a divisive issue. DOO takes about 30 seconds to 'train'
Put simply, instead of concentrating on what's in front of me, I'd have to also concentrate on what's behind me too. I work for VT, am only DOO for ECS moves and currently open the doors in passenger service and only shut them under the authority and watch of the guard if driving a 221 (an inherited way of working from XC), the guard shuts them on 390s. I do see problems for ASLEF on this if they try and agree DOO in areas where there hasn't been any such as Northern, Merseyrail, Ourselves, etc. Unlike GTR or GA where there is some, and it's used as a way of getting DOO in by the back door, because some drivers are used to it. These don't, and you could see drivers leave the union over this at those companies over it. I believe the RMT have some presence at some Northern depots, so it could benefit them long term. However it's ultimately upto us as members of ASLEF to vote against it. The EC have never put a gun to any drivers head and said you must vote it in, they only recommend a vote not say you must. ....it's ultimately up to us.
Robertj21a
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To me, if it's a genuine safety issue, accepted by all parties, then members should vote against DOO.
Killingworth
Established Member
Clearly there are safety issues. Talks must identify mutual agreement of what is and isn't acceptable. As an example, conductors have to juggle between helping passengers and opening doors. Very often a train has to wait for a transaction to be completed before doors can be opened - or revenue is lost to open doors. A layman can't understand how the driver is less safe opening the doors than the conductor. Closing them is not the same thing. Routes and rolling stock add further complexity. Yes/no ballots rarely solve complex issues unless the detailed groundwork has been done first.
Speaking personally I have the greatest admiration for our bus drivers who negotiate complex traffic on timed sections while taking fares from awkward travellers and listening out for passenger safety and route diversions by radio. I'm sure most buses would be quicker, and probably safer, with an old fashioned conductor on board! Technology marches on.
You make some very valid points. My only question would be why hasn't Aslef gone on strike now? It still doesn't change anything in my view as Northern cannot back down as they agreed to DOO as part of the franchise agreement However if what you say is true and I have no reason to dispute your expertise, then this is a huge issue for Aslef and they should be uniting with RMT. Unless Aslef accept what I have stated there is no point in fighting it and losing money as they wont win.
Eccles1983
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Aslef cannot go on strike as it hasnt been approached with regards to anything to do with DOO. It is a subject that the company will not entertain until it needs to.
Aslef's Northern or Merseyrail drivers haven't gone on strike as the question hasn't been put to them yet. You cant go on strike unless the company comes along and tries to change T&C's, either by asking, or imposing. They had the joint campaign over DOO, but after the Southern drivers eventually voted it in, the reaction didn't go down well at all, both with the RMT and many drivers at other TOC's. Must admit I wasn't happy with them accepting it and it weakened us overall, amd left us as being perceived as being able to be bought off in the eyes of many. However you can't assume every other TOCs drivers will react the same. Merseyrail drivers have even refused to cross the picket line when their guards have gone out which I personally find very commendable. This is obvs my own opinion, but I dont believe paying us off would work, I feel I'm already very well paid, so it's no incentive to me to take a bung in order to sell my TM colleagues down the river.
I'm little lost here. Why are RMT on strike they haven't yet imposed changes to conditions? Northern arnt even at that stage. Also where does it state they can only strike over certain reasons? I know there is a minimum turnout and votes before they can.
You'd have to ask the RMT that. There isn't a set list of reasons that says you can go on strike though. Bear in mind the hoops a union has to jump through nowadays, plus the fact it has to be absolutely spot on so that an employer can't take legal action to even block the action, this means that you don't ballot for action without good reason .
I wonder when these talks are. Also does anyone think they will be successful. I cant see how they can be but we can live in hope.
The RMT had to state up to five reasons why they are balloting. These can be anything but Northern could have challenged them in court had they felt the reasons for strike action were unlawful.
Northern will have taken legal advice on this and have decided it is not in their interests to challenge the legality of the ballot as they are unlikely to win in court.
Under Serco Abellio the RMT balloted about temporary contractors but because they also included DOO in a future franchise which was nothing to do with the current company, the company threatened to take them to court. On taking legal advice the RMT cancelled action as the company would have probably successfully got an injunction against strike action.
ASLEF having not directly being approached by the company over DOO at present are of the opinion any ballot at present may be successfully challenged because they may be perceived as taking secondary action in support of guards because Northern management have so far not entered into any negotiation with them over DOO but have said they will review their position if Northern approach them over DOO. At that point it becomes a safety issue for them and they would have a legitimate reason to ballot.
Northern will have taken legal advice on this and have decided it is not in their interests to challenge the legality of the ballot as they are unlikely to win in court.
Under Serco Abellio the RMT balloted about temporary contractors but because they also included DOO in a future franchise which was nothing to do with the current company, the company threatened to take them to court. On taking legal advice the RMT cancelled action as the company would have probably successfully got an injunction against strike action.
ASLEF having not directly being approached by the company over DOO at present are of the opinion any ballot at present may be successfully challenged because they may be perceived as taking secondary action in support of guards because Northern management have so far not entered into any negotiation with them over DOO but have said they will review their position if Northern approach them over DOO. At that point it becomes a safety issue for them and they would have a legitimate reason to ballot.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Employment law states you can only strike against your current employer, so if the RMT called a strike against a future franchise holder it couldn't take place until the franchise can change hands. The RMT was very careless then - if old Northern had wanted to reduce the guard numbers they could have let the strike go ahead and then dismissed some of those who went on strike, something they can't do if the industrial action is by the book.
northernchris
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Any ideas how the talks went today? Guessing not too well as the strike hasn't been postponed
Announcement shortly
Well we will have to wait and see. My guess is not well but you never know miracles may happen.
Yes just read it here. I have to say I am surprised. I cannot see how they can resolve this dispute as I have stated previously on this forum. HOWEVER I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...-and-extension-of-doo-arn130718/?preview=true
Bletchleyite
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Robertj21a
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Sounds rather like just a slight rehash of what has gone before. The company won't go as far as the RMT wants and the RMT won't budge from their demands.
If that is the position, then I cannot see this being resolved....it's the word guarantee which won't be moved on.
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