ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

A picture of the first modified SR rake at Wabtec. https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1017747774035685380

Looking good.....!

 

[InOban]

We don't want them looking pretty at Wabtec. We want them at Edinburgh.

 

[jingsmonty]

And Inverness too...it's a typical summer in the Highlands, with 170s bursting at the seams with passengers & luggage!

 

[92002]

is Kilmarnock tooled up to carry out this sort of conversion?

Considering their recent CV was building new wagons and ev n refurbishing the same GWR HSTs think the answer to that must be a yes.

 

[gingertom]

Considering their recent CV was building new wagons and ev n refurbishing the same GWR HSTs think the answer to that must be a yes.

Order book must be full if the work's not being delegated.

 

[380101]

is Kilmarnock tooled up to carry out this sort of conversion?

Wabtec Kilmarnock are full to capcity modifying 321 EMUs into 320s for ScotRail and doing their usual bread and butter work of refurbs on container flats.

 

[najaB]

Wabtec Kilmarnock are full to capcity modifying 321 EMUs into 320s for ScotRail and doing their usual bread and butter work of refurbs on container flats.

Plus, even though they've done Mk.3 work in the past that doesn't mean they could do the door replacement

 

[Northhighland]

[QU

Plus, even though they've done Mk.3 work in the past that doesn't mean they could do the door replacement

Not being derogatory here in any way but in terms of an Engineering challenge this is not nuclear fusion.

There must be other contractors that can do this work. If Wabtec were employing immigrant labour then it is not as if they had a dedicated skilled workforce with years of experience.

I am sure they do have some extremely good workers that are very skilled, just not enough of them.

Time to open the market.

 

[najaB]

Not being derogatory here in any way but in terms of an Engineering challenge this is not nuclear fusion.

My understanding is that it's more art than engineering - the theory is simple but it takes a lot of skill and practice.

 

[James James]

[QU


Not being derogatory here in any way but in terms of an Engineering challenge this is not nuclear fusion.

There must be other contractors that can do this work. If Wabtec were employing immigrant labour then it is not as if they had a dedicated skilled workforce with years of experience.

I am sure they do have some extremely good workers that are very skilled, just not enough of them.

Time to open the market.

Point of order: those immigrants could very well be highly skilled workers. Perhaps not experienced with Mk3's, but experienced with actually building things to a high standard. (Last I heard, mainland European companies had trouble finding sufficient local highly skilled workers when starting factories in both the UK and the US, and were having to spend a lot more time training them than they would in mainland Europe where there's more vocational training.)

 

[InOban]

Decades of underinvestment in, and undervaluing of, training in engineering and other skilled trades has meant that the only source of skilled workers has been abroad. Hence the domination of East Europeans in the construction and engineering trades - skilled plumbers, electricians, and engineers.

 

[Northhighland]

Point of order: those immigrants could very well be highly skilled workers. Perhaps not experienced with Mk3's, but experienced with actually building things to a high standard. (Last I heard, mainland European companies had trouble finding sufficient local highly skilled workers when starting factories in both the UK and the US, and were having to spend a lot more time training them than they would in mainland Europe where there's more vocational training.)

Point of order

In no way did I suggest anything other than these workers were highly skilled. I do not appreciate any insinuation to the contrary.

 

[Northhighland]

Decades of underinvestment in, and undervaluing of, training in engineering and other skilled trades has meant that the only source of skilled workers has been abroad. Hence the domination of East Europeans in the construction and engineering trades - skilled plumbers, electricians, and engineers.

Agreed 100%. We do have skilled Engineering contractors in the UK. This work is in Engineering terms challenging but far from the top end of engineering challenges. There are other British firms that could help get this done.

At present we have a backlog and no real evidence of a programme to completion. So some support is required for Wabtec.

In the immediate future immigrant workers are likely to choose other destinations until Brexit is sorted.

 

[James James]

... In no way did I suggest anything other than these workers were highly skilled. I do not appreciate any insinuation to the contrary.

and yet

.... If Wabtec were employing immigrant labour then it is not as if they had a dedicated skilled workforce with years of experience....

 

[Northhighland]

and yet

Obviously the point being made is that Wabtec supplement their existing skilled workforce with immigrant skilled labour, meaning that for skilled tradesmen this work can be picked up reasonably quickly. That would indicate that other contractors with appropriate skills could also do this work.

 

[InOban]

Unfortunately the word immigrant has become tainted and should be avoided. Workers from abroad, please.

It is a sad fact that much of our economy depends on us importing people who have been trained at great expense by much poorer countries. I believe that not one new medical graduate in Romania stays there.

 

[route:oxford]

It is a sad fact that much of our economy depends on us importing people who have been trained at great expense by much poorer countries. I believe that not one new medical graduate in Romania stays there.

Not far off the position in Scotland then. My three nieces all finished their training then found they were having to scrape by on short term unsocial hours contracts. Three months in Lerwick, 6 weeks in Gala etc - so they've left their student loans behind and off to the USA, Canada & New Zealand for a better life.

 

[route:oxford]

A picture of the first modified SR rake at Wabtec. https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1017747774035685380

Hopelessly low res.

Try this link instead:-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh_EEIiW4AULoGd.jpg:orig

 

[92002]

Wabtec Kilmarnock are full to capcity modifying 321 EMUs into 320s for ScotRail and doing their usual bread and butter work of refurbs on container flats.

Very Doubtful their full to capacity at Kilmarnock. They have just about finished a 321/320 conversion and got another in earlier in the week. This is work that also was previously done at Doncaster too.

It is quite a sizable place so doubt a few container flats is going to be much of a challenge. Would think there is plenty spare room to take in HST conversions and still leave room for more work.

There is of course another contractor just across the rail line who could also do the HST work given a chance. Not to mention Springburn.

Time ScotRail got a hold of this contract and gave Wabtec an ultimatum. Either deliver or lose to contract to somebody who can deliver.

No doubt there is penalty clauses in the contract but that doesn't help passengers get their refurbished coaches. Of course penalty clauses could also hire in some coaches and locos to fill the shortfall.

 

[najaB]

I'm sure this has been covered, but those sliding doors look narrower than the slam doors they're replacing.

 

[Domh245]

Decades of underinvestment in, and undervaluing of, training in engineering and other skilled trades has meant that the only source of skilled workers has been abroad. Hence the domination of East Europeans in the construction and engineering trades - skilled plumbers, electricians, and engineers.

Are you using engineer in the sense of "person who comes and fixes things" or the "has an engineering degree" sense? Because the latter certainly still seems to plenty of brits in it out in industry, and plenty more in University.

Time ScotRail got a hold of this contract and gave Wabtec an ultimatum. Either deliver or lose to contract to somebody who can deliver.

Given that Wabtec own the IP for these sliding door conversions, I don't think that you'll have much luck finding someone else to do the conversions any quicker, given it'd involve coming up with a new design (or perhaps sending it to China where IP ownership doesn't seem to mean as much)

 

[92002]

Are you using engineer in the sense of "person who comes and fixes things" or the "has an engineering degree" sense? Because the latter certainly still seems to plenty of brits in it out in industry, and plenty more in University.



Given that Wabtec own the IP for these sliding door conversions, I don't think that you'll have much luck finding someone else to do the conversions any quicker, given it'd involve coming up with a new design (or perhaps sending it to China where IP ownership doesn't seem to mean as much)

Given that there has been a design of power door for the mark3s that were delivered to Ireland many many years ago I doubt Wabtec are holding ScotRail to ransom on the contract.

In fact the power doors should have been fitted many years ago at refurbishment.

 

[jopsuk]

Hopelessly low res.

Try this link instead:-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh_EEIiW4AULoGd.jpg:orig

I spy a converted XC coach too

 

[Domh245]

Given that there has been a design of power door for the mark3s that were delivered to Ireland many many years ago I doubt Wabtec are holding ScotRail to ransom on the contract.

In fact the power doors should have been fitted many years ago at refurbishment.

That design:
a) leaves too small an opening in the doorway because of the pole around which the door pivots
b) isn't immune to the inconsistency between coaches that is responsible for a lot of the delay to this programme, meaning each corner of the coach requires a lot of custom work.

 

[92002]

That design:
a) leaves too small an opening in the doorway because of the pole around which the door pivots
b) isn't immune to the inconsistency between coaches that is responsible for a lot of the delay to this programme, meaning each corner of the coach requires a lot of custom work.

It's also an approved design with grandfather rights. Any change to make the door opening wider is not rocket science.

 

[Domh245]

It's also an approved design with grandfather rights. Any change to make the door opening wider is not rocket science.

I'm fairly sure that grandfather rights apply to the vehicle, rather than the design, otherwise you'd just keep building vehicles to older designs. Also, you seem fairly sure that making the door opening wider is simple, but after all, bunging diesel engines under 769s or D78s, or even installing the sliding doors into mk3s should have been simple...

 

[Highland37]

I have just put my partner and step daughter on the 1253 from Inverness to Edinburgh. A 3-car 170 (deliveried) with not one seat available (I walked through the entire train) and luggage everywhere. Scotrail should, but wont be, ashamed of this state of affairs. However, Wabtec have been so awful and their track record so poor that this is the state of affairs we will have for months yet.

The parochial idea of a 4-car HST looks very bad now. Should be 5 car throughout as a minimum.

 

[najaB]

The parochial idea of a 4-car HST looks very bad now. Should be 5 car throughout as a minimum.

AIUI, the 4-car sets will be largely limited to Aberdeen-Inverness services.

Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness should be almost exclusively 5-car operated.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

I have just put my partner and step daughter on the 1253 from Inverness to Edinburgh. A 3-car 170 (deliveried) with not one seat available (I walked through the entire train) and luggage everywhere. Scotrail should, but wont be, ashamed of this state of affairs. However, Wabtec have been so awful and their track record so poor that this is the state of affairs we will have for months yet.

The parochial idea of a 4-car HST looks very bad now. Should be 5 car throughout as a minimum.

I've always thought 4 car hsts are not a good idea when you think that on Sundays they run 6 and 5 cars to Inverness and Aberdeen from Edinburgh that are already heaving. A standard 6 car hst fleet would have been better in my opinion.

 

[najaB]

I've always thought 4 car hsts are not a good idea when you think that on Sundays they run 6 and 5 cars to Inverness and Aberdeen from Edinburgh that are already heaving. A standard 6 car hst fleet would have been better in my opinion.

95% of the time that would be overkill.