Siemens wins contract to build 94 trains for the Piccadilly line

[samuelmorris]

Not remotely surprising, but I do really wonder what legal basis these companies have for mounting such challenges. Is it not basically a glorified FoI request?

 

[Mikey C]

Bombardier need to be concentrating their efforts on getting their Aventras working properly.

 

[edwin_m]

They have grounds for legal challenge if the decision process didn't follow the exact criteria set out in the invitation to tender. For a big and complicated contract like this one, it potentially becomes a major techno-legal argument.

 

[rebmcr]

Richard Hunter, UK chairman and managing director at Bombardier Transportation, said the firm was “very disappointed” and would be seeking answers from TfL about why the Bombardier/Hitachi consortium had not been selected.

Potential answer from TfL: "So, about that Aventra software? Perhaps you have another suggestion for the Gospel Oak-Barking Line?"

 

[Clip]

Bombardier need to be concentrating their efforts on getting their Aventras working properly.

Im sure theyre able to do 2 things at once or should they stop with planes to concentrate on them too?

 

[gsnedders]

They have grounds for legal challenge if the decision process didn't follow the exact criteria set out in the invitation to tender. For a big and complicated contract like this one, it potentially becomes a major techno-legal argument.

And it's not at all uncommon for a major bidder to do this, because these contracts are worth such huge amounts, and if you have any reason to believe the criteria hasn't been followed the legal expenses are easily justified.

 

[LLivery]

Im sure theyre able to do 2 things at once or should they stop with planes to concentrate on them too?

Well... Bombardier did screw up the SSR signaling contract, deliver 172s with a mythical exhaust problem, Electrostars with buttons falling off (and rubbish air con) and the 2009 Stock with door edges too sensitive, amongst other things. While Hitachi can't even manage to build a train with windscreens that drivers safely see through.

I know I'm being harsh (and joking, kind of), but after all that Bombardier has won with TfL, despite screwing up a contract worth hundreds of millions, it does seem rather cheeky to take TfL to court after failing to win just one contract.

 

[47802]

Well... Bombardier did screw up the SSR signaling contract, deliver 172s with a mythical exhaust problem, Electrostars with buttons falling off (and rubbish air con) and the 2009 Stock with door edges too sensitive, amongst other things. While Hitachi can't even manage to build a train with windscreens that drivers safely see through.

I know I'm being harsh (and joking, kind of), but after all that Bombardier has won with TfL, despite screwing up a contract worth hundreds of millions, it does seem rather cheeky to take TfL to court after failing to win just one contract.

Yes but this contract would essentially ensure the future of Derby and Newton Aycliffe for many years to come, so they may have seen something which worth a punt, added to which this gives Siemens the opportunity to set up shop on home turf and make things more difficult for B&H, in fact this is very bad news all round for B&H.

 

[jon0844]

Yes but this contract would essentially ensure the future of Derby and Newton Aycliffe for many years to come, so they may have seen something which worth a punt, added to which this gives Siemens the opportunity to set up shop on home turf and make things more difficult for B&H, in fact this is very bad news all round for B&H.

They basically have to be seen to do something, and if (and when) they fail, they can shift the blame onto TfL.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Maybe if Bombardier & Hitachi provided better rolling stock, they probably would have been chosen.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe if Bombardier & Hitachi provided better rolling stock, they probably would have been chosen.

You're right on the button there.

(Obviously buttons aren't a strong point for Bombardier).

 

[LLivery]

Yes but this contract would essentially ensure the future of Derby and Newton Aycliffe for many years to come, so they may have seen something which worth a punt, added to which this gives Siemens the opportunity to set up shop on home turf and make things more difficult for B&H, in fact this is very bad news all round for B&H.

Problem is, if I had a pound for every time they said that, I'd be a rich man. I agree, they're worried about Siemens setting up shop, but if their product was good enough, they won't be so worried.

They basically have to be seen to do something, and if (and when) they fail, they can shift the blame onto TfL.

Setting the good bridges with TfL alight would probably a regrettable move, they'll do well to remember that. Only Southern/Southeastern has been such a "loyal customer". As far as I'm aware, TfL don't exactly have to take future orders to competition...

 

[edwin_m]

Setting the good bridges with TfL alight would probably a regrettable move, they'll do well to remember that. Only Southern/Southeastern has been such a "loyal customer". As far as I'm aware, TfL don't exactly have to take future orders to competition...

It seems to be that TfL intends to obtain the later orders from the same supplier as the Piccadilly order but they have the option to go out to tender again if the Piccadilly fleet is considered unsatisfactory. There's probably also some kind of priced option for the future orders so that the supplier can't just assume they have the business and name their price, although it could be tricky to make that work over the timescales of the Tube upgrades. All this would have been made clear in the invitations to tender - otherwise it would be illegal for TfL just to go to the same supplier again without running a new competition.

So if the supplier's performance and price is acceptable then they should get the next tranches of Tube orders without the cost and risk of preparing a competitive bid, TfL avoids the cost of running a competition and ends up with a uniform fleet across several lines, with the later ones being of a proven design and with a price reflecting economies of scale.

From Bombardier's point of view this makes losing this bid more of a setback and the potential benefits of a legal challenge much greater. If they lose they are locked out of Tube business for a long time, unless Siemens make a mess of things.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I can't see Siemens making a mess of things, at this stage the Inspiro is pretty well proven and all of their other Metro trains such as the ones in Prague have been excellent.

 

[Jonny]

It's quite possible to specify something like compatibility with (Bombardier) S stock in the invitation to tender... after all, the Piccadilly Line trains do work alongside S-stock (District and Metropolitan) on some routes.

 

[jon0844]

Setting the good bridges with TfL alight would probably a regrettable move, they'll do well to remember that. Only Southern/Southeastern has been such a "loyal customer". As far as I'm aware, TfL don't exactly have to take future orders to competition...

They've done enough damage by letting TfL down countless times, yet they continued to win contracts. As bids should be done blind, even though I am sure it's quite obvious who each bidder is based on what they propose, I am sure Bombardier would send in the lawyers if they felt they were being sidelined.

As for staff at risk, I am sure that many would simply seek to move to Siemens or anyone else. Hopefully those who work in the quality control department would seek employment outside the industry.

 

[DenmarkRail]

They've done enough damage by letting TfL down countless times, yet they continued to win contracts. As bids should be done blind, even though I am sure it's quite obvious who each bidder is based on what they propose, I am sure Bombardier would send in the lawyers if they felt they were being sidelined.

As for staff at risk, I am sure that many would simply seek to move to Siemens or anyone else. Hopefully those who work in the quality control department would seek employment outside the industry.

Blind bids in my view would help ensure that political benefit for building in Britain was gone... Siemens should have always won the other contracts also.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't see Siemens making a mess of things, at this stage the Inspiro is pretty well proven and all of their other Metro trains such as the ones in Prague have been excellent.

We don't know - but Tube gauge stock has quite a few peculiarities and the last totally new manufacturer was BREL with the 1992 stock (later fleets were by successors to BREL and Metro-Cammell). They didn't cover themselves in glory.

 

[Clip]

Well... Bombardier did screw up the SSR signaling contract, deliver 172s with a mythical exhaust problem, Electrostars with buttons falling off (and rubbish air con) and the 2009 Stock with door edges too sensitive, amongst other things. While Hitachi can't even manage to build a train with windscreens that drivers safely see through.

I know I'm being harsh (and joking, kind of), but after all that Bombardier has won with TfL, despite screwing up a contract worth hundreds of millions, it does seem rather cheeky to take TfL to court after failing to win just one contract.

i agree but the notion that their legal team should stop this process and focus on something else as per the post quoted is quite laughable

 

[LLivery]

The challenge has been defeated and it's full steam ahead for Siemens.

High Court ruling awards Siemens £1.5bn Underground contract
Siemens has won a £1.5bn contract with London Underground to replace some of its oldest trains with almost 100 new models after a High Court ruling lifted the suspension on the contract.

London Underground originally awarded the contract to Siemens Mobility Ltd back in June ahead of a joint venture bid from Bombardier and Hitachi, but the rivals launched a legal challenge to the High Court against the decision.

The awarding of the contract was automatically put on hold, but Judge Mrs Justice O’Farrell ruled that Siemens and London Underground could push ahead with the signing of the contract, lifting the temporary suspension.

As part of the deal, Siemens will make, supply and maintain 94 new trains to replace rolling stock on the Piccadilly Line which were built back in 1975.

The original deal planned to introduce the new fleet in 2023 and under the 40-year contract, Siemens will also be able to supply a further 50 trains on the Bakerloo and Waterloo & City Lines.

The new fleet of Inspiro walkthrough-style trains form part of TfL’s Deep Tube Upgrade Programme, which will overhaul the signalling on the line and enable three more trains to operate an hour.

When finished, the programme will improve capacity on the line by 60% and improve reliability.

Transport for London (TfL) originally said the deal would lead to a new factory being built in Goole, in east Yorkshire, employing around 700 people, and estimated that the deal would generate around 1,700 indirect jobs, apprentices and graduate roles in total.

Andrew Percy, Goole’s MP, welcomed the High Court ruling on his official Facebook account and said the new contract was an “important part of the £160m train factory investment in Goole.”

He said it was “excellent news” and that more good news would be coming in the coming days, including confirmation that the factory was back on track.

The commissioner of TfL, Mike Brown, said when the contract was first announced that it marked a “huge milestone for the capital and the Underground” and that “these trains will transform the journeys of millions of our customers, and provide faster, more frequent and more reliable trains for decades to come.”

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...V W2 05-11-2018&dm_i=IJS,5YEND,O0PQI5,NBRP2,1

 

[Mikey C]

Have such legal challenges EVER succeeded?

To me, attacking one of your best recent customers was poor tactics from Bombardier, they should just have accepted they lost the bid and moved on

 

[F Great Eastern]

Some of the quotes I have seen from Bombardier and Hitachi from this are pretty laughable. Every time Bombardier lose a contract, despite some very favourable decisions in the past, they act exactly the same. It's almost like they feel they should automatically get it.

Bombardier is saying that simply by not getting the contract their reputation is damaged like it has some God given right to win the contract and if not it will sue just because of the fact they lost and Hitachi saying Londoners will be paying a higher price for an inferior tube train of a less advanced design comes across as a bunch of sore losers rather than someone with an actual gripe.

The Inspiro is an excellent train and that's from someone who has been on them.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Bombardier saying that simply by not getting the contract their reputation is damaged and Hitachi saying Londoners will be paying a higher price for an inferior tube train of a less advanced design comes across as a bunch of sore losers rather than someone with an actual gripe.

Bombardier went down the ambulance chasing route & Hitachi went down the think of the children route. Very petty and has probably screwed any chance of them being chosen for the next lot of rolling stock TfL needs.

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought this was fairly standard practice for the losing bidder in all of these major contracts? I'm sure I recall Siemens doing it once as well but I forget what for.

 

[Andy25]

Bombardier are always on the breadline at Derby, they have to be seen as putting effort in to avoid complaints down the line if there are layoffs "we did everything we could"

But court challenges are always going to be common now because the tender processes are so complex there are always going to be different perceptions of what criteria are most important to the customer.

Several customers have not followed the process and when you're spending £10M tendering you want to be damn sure it's a level playing field

 

[LLivery]

I agree, Bombardier and the MPs in Derby act like the world is going to fall in every time they lose a contract. Taking your best customer to court seems badly thought out, especially when they have orders to complete from TfL at this very moment. But, I understand it in a way, Siemens and CAF is going to be a sharp thorn in their side.

I thought this was fairly standard practice for the losing bidder in all of these major contracts? I'm sure I recall Siemens doing it once as well but I forget what for.

I don't remember that, though it won't be a surprise. The last legal case I remember is when Siemens got the Eurostar contract.

 

[LLivery]

Bombardier are always on the breadline at Derby, they have to be seen as putting effort in to avoid complaints down the line if there are layoffs "we did everything we could"

Maybe they should diversify from EMUs and DMUs. It seems to be the only thing they offer at Litchurch Lane. No locomotives, trams, light rail, MPVs or carriages have been built there for donkeys. It's very much eggs in basket.

 

[samuelmorris]

Maybe they should diversify from EMUs and DMUs. It seems to be the only thing they offer at Litchurch Lane. No locomotives, trams, light rail, MPVs or carriages have been built there for donkeys. It's very much eggs in basket.

As far as I know the last DLR units were built there and I think they're bidding for the new contract are they not?

 

[Andy25]

As far as I know the last DLR units were built there and I think they're bidding for the new contract are they not?

Derby is their centre of excellence for aluminium bodies so has some sway in manufacturing. But in general the OEMs set up sites as specialists for particular equipment or vehicle type so it is difficult to persuade them to let a UK site build anything else.

 

[sprunt]

Taking your best customer to court seems badly thought out, especially when they have orders to complete from TfL at this very moment.

Are TfL permitted to take that into account when awarding the contract though?