Disabled Tanyalee Davis - more rail travel woes.

[Bantamzen]

I suspect she's tried talking to the TOC and found that that achieves absolutely nothing. So the logical next step is going to the media. She was offered a solution that prioritised a non-protected characteristic against a protected one. She was also placed at risk by the actions of a member of train crew. Do you have any evidence to back up that her agent advised her to get it in the media? This show the BBC are planning to give her, do you know what that is? Based on a similar level of evidence I suspect you are being paid by the TOC to smear her and you have resorted to using an online platform to to this for your own publicity rather than taking the time and effort to contact her as ask her those questions directly. See how easy it is to make baseless accusations

I'm sorry to say but this post highlights the problem here. Assuming that you are referring to the original GWR incident, surely all passengers should attract a "protected" status, not just some? Now obviously some passengers need additional support, but this does not prioritise them over all other passengers, especially those travelling alone with babies as was the case as I understand it.

Equality should mean equality, in other words everyone should be treated as equal and wherever possible given equal treatment. Of course not being an ideal world, there will be occasions where some may have to be treated differently but so long as this is done with care and compassion to achieve the best possible outcomes for everyone. But that needs all parties to understand everyone else's needs and not just demand that their needs override all others. That's how a functional society should work.

 

[pt_mad]

I'd like to know that too. The interesting thing would be how many fails would actually get recorded. If no one turns up to get me off at a terminus station and the train crew have already gone so I get myself off (risky but 'fun'), unless I formally complain I suspect it wouldn't get recorded. Similarly if I have to crawl onto the train to avoid missing it and the Guard hasn't been sent the assistance message then that won't get recorded eitehr

Well the figure one in five individual assistance requests experiences an 'issue' was banded about on the original Tanyalee thread. If this is true, I don't know how they have recorded the data for that? Perhaps took a sample from a group of people on their experiences over a month something like that? If so it appears the data is recorded as someone quoted the one in five.

But if that is true, take from that that no industry wide changes have come from that yet .MerseyRail and I believe some services on Greater Anglia will soon have low floor trains for level boarding. Take note those who say it can't be done network wide. But other than that, the ability to be able to book online in some cases, and some trial apps there's been no drastic changes.

Perhaps it's nothing like as high as one in five assiatance bookings experiences an issue.

 

[pt_mad]

I'm sorry to say but this post highlights the problem here. Assuming that you are referring to the original GWR incident, surely all passengers should attract a "protected" status, not just some? Now obviously some passengers need additional support, but this does not prioritise them over all other passengers, especially those travelling alone with babies as was the case as I understand it.

Equality should mean equality, in other words everyone should be treated as equal and wherever possible given equal treatment. Of course not being an ideal world, there will be occasions where some may have to be treated differently but so long as this is done with care and compassion to achieve the best possible outcomes for everyone. But that needs all parties to understand everyone else's needs and not just demand that their needs override all others. That's how a functional society should work.

Protected status will on occasions mean passengers with disabilities are treated differently or are put first. A full and standing train for example. Where the wheelchair space is full of standing passengers, they will be asked to move and a wheelchair user will have priority over the space, even if some non disabled passengers who were waiting on the platform first have to wait for the next train.
Disabled parking is another example. Blue badge holders can park closer to the facilities than those without. That is because they need priority to be able to access certain things, and also because it's the law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is it like in Europe? People keep quoting Switzerland, but the only country I’m very familiar with is Belgium, where getting on trains is often a mountaineering exercise precisely because of the low platforms.

ISTR Belgium has not long bought a job lot of new low floor Desiros, though I think there is still a step up. Belgium, unlike Switzerland, doesn't have any DOO, so maybe like the UK it relies on guards?

Mind you this:

...looks like very nearly level boarding judging by the door and the height of the seats.

(Photo of doors of Belgian Desiro alongside a platform)

 

[whhistle]

Secondly, it is more the language used - calling someone a burden is very harsh, very blunt, and is of no help to anyone.

Sorry I don't fluff things up and say it how it is.
Sometimes particular words are used because there isn't another word to describe.

No. You can't "just tell".
You have literally no idea what has been going on in someones life.

You've given an example which does not come from the other side.
I've witnessed someone young (teenager), who uses a mobility scooter (a big one!) who managed to drive it into a customer service office, talk to the platform staff, then proceed to get off it and physically turn it round to drive out again.
Similarly, I've seen countless older people drag a suitcase down the street, then call the platform dispatcher a "porter" and force [the platform staff] to put their bag on the train.

Yes... SOMETIMES you can just tell.

I fully appreciate you have an open mind, that's great but when you see this day in day out, it becomes easier to spot those in real need, rather than those who are a little lazy.

And for the record, after having an in depth conversation with a fellow passenger after we both missed the train, I'd suggest that yes, I did literally know what has been going on in their life.

Errrr yes it is. It is in law. If you do not make reasonable efforts to allow disabled people access to your services then that is illegal. Full stop.

Define "reasonable".
Sometimes, it isn't as reasonable as you think.
Is it reasonable for a lone working station person with a disability of their own to carry three suitcases on to a train? No. Should we sack them to employ someone who doesn't have a disability as a reasonable adjustment? No.

There is no right to be helped. There is the legal implications that a company must make reasonable adjustments to enable all people to access their product or services but that doesn't mean it's a wide open right to be able to do so.

How big a minority do you think this is, because it seems like you are making a big deal out of a tiny number of people.
Why do you seem to think it is fair to essentially tar all disabled people with the same brush?

I'm not making a big deal out of it - you're the one that is quoting here there and everywhere to argue against reality. I don't "seem to think it's fair" at all. Not sure why you think this. I have always specifically written "some" (or similar) words to show that I'm not saying "all" - two very different things. I won't be replying again.

 

[Bantamzen]

Protected status will on occasions mean passengers with disabilities are treated differently or are put first. A full and standing train for example. Where the wheelchair space is full of standing passengers, they will be asked to move and a wheelchair user will have priority over the space, even if some non disabled passengers who were waiting on the platform first have to wait for the next train.
Disabled parking is another example. Blue badge holders can park closer to the facilities than those without. That is because they need priority to be able to access certain things, and also because it's the law.

If I recall correctly in the GWR case, Tanyalee Davis wasn't using the disabled space to sit, just to store her scooter. I don't disagree with having suitable access for those that need it, I just think that she is now using the media as part echo chamber and part free publicity.

 

[Esker-pades]

You've given an example which does not come from the other side.
I've witnessed someone young (teenager), who uses a mobility scooter (a big one!) who managed to drive it into a customer service office, talk to the platform staff, then proceed to get off it and physically turn it round to drive out again.
Similarly, I've seen countless older people drag a suitcase down the street, then call the platform dispatcher a "porter" and force [the platform staff] to put their bag on the train.

Yes... SOMETIMES you can just tell.

I fully appreciate you have an open mind, that's great but when you see this day in day out, it becomes easier to spot those in real need, rather than those who are a little lazy.

And for the record, after having an in depth conversation with a fellow passenger after we both missed the train, I'd suggest that yes, I did literally know what has been going on in their life.

Most of this is falls into the "I once saw this" argument. So, I'll throw some other "I once saw this" which shows the opposite, thus proving that it isn't the best way of proving a point about a large group of people. Specifically, the point about the elderly.

My grandfather has less mobility and strength than he used to. Thus, when he goes on holiday, although he needs a medium-sized suitcase (not those giant things, but a reasonable size). He can wheel it along, but finds lifting very difficult. My grandmother can lift, but once she's dealt with her stuff, she is fatigued. Therefore, the times I travel with them, I am the lifter. I can do this because I have no physical impairment. Of course, I can't be with them all the time. What happens then? Do they both struggle to complete the task, risking injury? Or, do they ask someone to help them? I would think that spending 30 seconds putting a big bag on a train would be better than the hours it would take to sort things out if one of my grandparents fell over because they tried something beyond their abilities, not to mention the delays to the train.

My grandfather has been slowly convinced that it is stupid to battle through the pain as it will only do more long-term damage. He does book assistance for airports, but often turns it down when he decides that he can make it himself. The difference between a gate at one side of the terminal and the other is large enough to be the difference between managing and not managing.

 

[LowLevel]

Luggage is somewhat different to other assistance. I don't mind as I've mentioned before moving a small case or bag for someone (whether they're old, young, disabled or whatever - I often help people who are less tall put things into the overhead racks as I have no problems in that department).

My objection comes when the person, whoever they are, brings a large, heavy case or bag and expects someone else to move it for them. We all get a grand total of one spine and it doesn't mend well if damaged. I object to putting it at risk to save someone the cost of using luggage to follow services, most long distance train companies have discount deals with them.

Pushing a person in a chair up a ramp is primarily leg based if you do it correctly. Carrying large suitcases about is a different ball game. Same as pushchairs which can easily be removed from the train backwards using the step to support the front wheels by their operator yet they still try and come off forwards and expect you to bend down and grab the front wheels for them.

 

[Caleb2010]

Sorry whhistle but!

I can't believe I just read that!!!!​

Sorry, No - how can you just tell!

The situation you have described is biased, completely biased!

Did you stop to think that that young man may have breathing difficulties where exertion for more than a few steps is likely to leave them in pain and breathless - yes, he may be able to lift and turn his scooter but that could leave him wiped out for some time after so whilst looking healthy could well in fact be far from it.

I travel regularly and need assistance with mobility and luggage, yes I could lift my bag or case onto a train (just) but couldn't do the walk to the platform as my breathing difficulties don't allow it.

You appear to be another one of the countless number of people who - if they can't see a disability -assume one doesn't exist!

 

[pt_mad]

Luggage is somewhat different to other assistance. I don't mind as I've mentioned before moving a small case or bag for someone (whether they're old, young, disabled or whatever - I often help people who are less tall put things into the overhead racks as I have no problems in that department).

My objection comes when the person, whoever they are, brings a large, heavy case or bag and expects someone else to move it for them. We all get a grand total of one spine and it doesn't mend well if damaged. I object to putting it at risk to save someone the cost of using luggage to follow services, most long distance train companies have discount deals with them.

Pushing a person in a chair up a ramp is primarily leg based if you do it correctly. Carrying large suitcases about is a different ball game. Same as pushchairs which can easily be removed from the train backwards using the step to support the front wheels by their operator yet they still try and come off forwards and expect you to bend down and grab the front wheels for them.

Spot on. Many a time I used to be asked by a 60 something 'excuse me, can you lift my case onto the train please because its too heavy for me'. Well what protects our backs? A small number of customers must think train op staff are there to do their manual handling for them. If its too heavy for someone of reasonably able body then don't bring it please.
Something else which concerns me is that more frequently tocs are now advising that cases are lifted by standing on platform level and lifting the case on or off from there. However, a staff member standing at a low height and lifting a large dead weight by a top handle up onto a surface a foot higher up strikes me as potentially more dangerous for the back than standing on the train and lifting it from the ground up? Its a question of whether the lower or middle back is better exposed?
Potentially one heavy case for a customer could balls a member of staff's back up for a long time, and I hope the train company would back them up if they suffered from then on..

 

[Bikeman78]

ISTR Belgium has not long bought a job lot of new low floor Desiros, though I think there is still a step up. Belgium, unlike Switzerland, doesn't have any DOO, so maybe like the UK it relies on guards?

Mind you this:

...looks like very nearly level boarding judging by the door and the height of the seats.

(Photo of doors of Belgian Desiro alongside a platform)

They are in the process of raising the platforms in Belgium but it will take years to complete.

 

[sarahj]

I have to be careful here as most know where I work. I almost had my first ever wheelchair left on the other day. It was very busy and I never managed to get to where they were, or even knew that they were there. I had closed the doors at the station, but the driver then noted a platform person come along with a ramp. Doors were re-opened and the punter removed, but I was not a happy bunny. Back at the start station I had a go at the platform staff who had placed the punter on. They said, we phone the station, Yes, I said, but you should have told me. I often watch platform staff put folks on, but say nothing to us about where they are going.

Other issues. Mobilty Scooters. Once they were small, now they are big and I watch ramps bend under their weight. The rule was once , small and must be able to turn. Now folks turn up with things that block the vestibule.

Oh and Europe and their flashy trains. I watched the high tech stuff get a wheelchair off a OBB Desiro at Seefeldt. Took an age. Me with my yellow ramp, half the time.

 

[Bromley boy]

Back at the start station I had a go at the platform staff who had placed the punter on. They said, we phone the station, Yes, I said, but you should have told me. I often watch platform staff put folks on, but say nothing to us about where they are going.

We have this issue on DOO services. Wheelchairs are *supposed* to be loaded behind the driver and the driver informed of their destination. Invariably they are loaded further back and the platform staff are out of earshot.

Very common for the message not to get through and nobody to be waiting at the destination station which of course is inconvenient and very undignified for the passenger concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are in the process of raising the platforms in Belgium but it will take years to complete.

You have to start somewhere, unlike the UK which has barely even started.

 

[whhistle]

Sorry, No - how can you just tell!

You appear to be another one of the countless number of people who - if they can't see a disability -assume one doesn't exist!

Incorrect.
Re-read the post and search for the word SOME.

I have always written SOME, as it's true for SOME people, not ALL people - as you appear to have read it as. Fed up of trying to explain that it's clear, SOME people are just bone idle lazy.
Just like SOME people with a disability will wear it like a shield and demand everything be done to help them, s*d other passengers
Yet others are more meek and get on with their day as best they can.
And others really do need assistance.

If you work with the general public, you get to know. Just like guards knowing people who are trying it on without a ticket compared with those who are honestly making a mistake in their travellings.

There are many hidden disabilities, yes - please point out where I have said there aren't. It's agrieved you as this affects you. The problem is, each disability is different and we seem to want to treat all disabled people as disabled or not. Why should someone who is deaf get a blue badge? They can still walk from a slightly further away space to the shop entrance...

But also well done on assuming it was a man, rather than a woman.
Plus, when you've seen this person days on end... it's a struggle to understand how they turn a scooter all by themselves but need someone to carry a small handbag to the train, where they then put it on the scooter and drive on the train...

 

[EM2]

We have this issue on DOO services. Wheelchairs are *supposed* to be loaded behind the driver and the driver informed of their destination. Invariably they are loaded further back and the platform staff are out of earshot.

There are two issues here.
One is stock built with the accessible spaces not behind the driver, which is the case on all the DOO stock I'm familiar with.
The other is where the station exits are. For example, travelling London-bound and detraining at Maidstone East, the station exit is at the rear of the train, and so customers want to be boarded there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have this issue on DOO services. Wheelchairs are *supposed* to be loaded behind the driver and the driver informed of their destination. Invariably they are loaded further back and the platform staff are out of earshot.

Very common for the message not to get through and nobody to be waiting at the destination station which of course is inconvenient and very undignified for the passenger concerned.

Security guard patrols are often managed by having barcodes or "contactless" transponders that the security guard has to touch or scan periodically to prove they have made their complete round. Could something along those lines be introduced whereby platform staff have to prove they have actually spoken to the driver? Requiring you to sign a piece of paper to confirm you were satisfied that they had been loaded and were aware of their presence would probably work as a low-tech and quickly introduced option.

 

[OneOffDave]

There are two issues here.
One is stock built with the accessible spaces not behind the driver, which is the case on all the DOO stock I'm familiar with.
The other is where the station exits are. For example, travelling London-bound and detraining at Maidstone East, the station exit is at the rear of the train, and so customers want to be boarded there.

You also get the issue with stations like Farnborough where the platform is very narrow at one end so you can't get off from the wheelchair spaces at the the back of some trains

 

[Caleb2010]

Sorry, my mistake on assuming things, I shouldn’t have done that!

However- as a disabled traveller myself and having worked for 40 years in dealing with, assisting and moving passengers around, before becoming sick, lame or lazy, I can honestly say that even if you see someone every day on a scooter, carrying luggage, holding conversations, skipping along with the breeze- it doesn’t mean all is right with them and it’s not something that you are able to tell- I’m fact I’d say that SOMETIMES It’s difficult to tell as so many disabilities are not shown.

With some people, reassurance and recognition helps them with travelling- they may have carried a case down the street - but faced with a Station and the different problems they pose, ask for help!

Older people remember porters, like they do conductors on buses, faced with the gateline staff, then platform staff, it’s easy for them to fall back to what they remember.

True. Not all people claiming disability are so, but passenger assistance- station or train - is just that! It’s not disabled assistance!

As I see it, and have done for years, mobility impaired, physical impairment or mental issues are cause to require or request assistance.

 

[pt_mad]

True. Not all people claiming disability are so, but passenger assistance- station or train - is just that! It’s not disabled assistance!

As I see it, and have done for years, mobility impaired, physical impairment or mental issues are cause to require or request assistance.

Totally. However if an elderly customer presents themselves with a huge case and requests someone lifts it onto the train and into a rack because they 'packed too much' then the obvious answer would be for the customer to pack only what they can handle. Especially if it means they could get carried over at a station because they cant retrieve their own case and get it out of the door. Also, it does tend to make someone with assistance look less genuine if its a luggage only assist and several members of their family bring them in and can't get out quick enough, simply wanting to hand the care of elderly parents and their luggage over to staff. Or worse still, they remain on the station and watch while the staff handle large cases and while they simply observe their parents being loaded onto the train. Or as I've seen before, they request staff go out to the car park to unload several cases from their sons car. How did they get them in there in the first place?
Then you have cases of other assists being missed due to over demand and long lists with only one or two members of staff available, where if only the disabled and people who physically couldnt manage without assistance were on the list, staff might be able to cope a bit more with the reduced demand.

Finally when a member of staff has been particularly helpful to a passenger, particularly if it's just luggage assistance, it goes a long way to just give a quick thank you at some point, as some staff do this assistance all day, day in day out and some passengers, mainly just luggage assists, view assistance staff as porters, some even refer to them as porters, and think they are there just as luggage chaperones and loaders. I've seen a passenger raise a walking stick before and call to a dispatcher 'errrr hello porter' to get the staff's attention to lift a case on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously trains don't offer checked luggage, but I see this all the time on planes.

If you can't carry it in your hand (rather than on wheels or a trolley), and place it into the correct location yourself - it is not hand luggage!

 

[kristiang85]

She really isn't having much luck on trains is she?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...d-womans-kids-out-for-littering-a3926656.html

Tanyalee Davis, 47, filmed the furious exchange during which she was called a "disabled b****" and "abnormal" by mother after she accused her children of littering and kicking her disability scooter on a train which stopped at Nottingham on Friday.

British Transport Police said they are investigating footage taken by Ms Davis which shows a row with a group of children and woman who says she is their mother...

 

[AlterEgo]

She really isn't having much luck on trains is she?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...d-womans-kids-out-for-littering-a3926656.html

Great example for all the people on here who think filming an incident will de-escalate it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

She is right about littering on trains, though. Do Merseyrail civil enforcment officers also prosecute for that, out of interest?

 

[Mag_seven]

She really isn't having much luck on trains is she?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...d-womans-kids-out-for-littering-a3926656.html

Some detail from the linked article to comply with the forum rules:

This is the shocking moment a disabled comedian received a barrage of abuse from a mum on a train after scolding her children for "littering".

Tanyalee Davis, 47, filmed the furious exchange during which she was called a "disabled b****" and "abnormal" by mother after she accused her children of littering and kicking her disability scooter on a train which stopped at Nottingham on Friday.

Putting aside what some think about her, to be called a "disabled b****" and "abnormal" is truly shocking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting aside what some think about her, to be called a "disabled b****" and "abnormal" is truly shocking.

Quite. Just the typical "chav" response when caught out as being in the wrong, though, no? I hope they are prosecuted (for littering and for the abuse).

 

[kristiang85]

Littering on trains is an absolute bugbear for me - it is just beyond my comprehension how people are incapable of picking up their litter and putting it in the bin, which is usually on their way out of the train or at the very least on the platform as they walk past. Especially when they alight in the middle of a journey and the people afterwards have to put up with their horrid mess.

Then again littering in general is a massive problem in the UK, not just on trains. So often when I travel I remark how clean other places are, and I realise it is because I'm so used to all the litter here.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm now increasingly of the opinion that she's actively looking for trouble.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm now increasingly of the opinion that she's actively looking for trouble.

Or, for balance, you could put it the more positive way - "she is actively campaigning for social good"?

 

[Journeyman]

Or, for balance, you could put it the more positive way - "she is actively campaigning for social good"?

You could, but this looks like a deliberately-engineered confrontation that she was ready to film. I don't like antisocial behaviour either, and the people concerned have acted appallingly badly, but if I thought there was any chance of that sort of thing happening, I'd leave them well alone.