Is the phrase "whiter than white" racist?

[Teflon Lettuce]

right... let me say that I am sorry if anyone takes offence from what I said.. none was meant... it is a saying my Dad used to use to stop us kids from whining that something was unfair... and it worked... cos we'd immediately stop whining while we tried to work out what was so unfair about "a black man's a*se" and tbh I literally just said it without thinking...

I suppose my point is this: There was no racist intent behind what I said, anyone who was hearing what was happening would realise that... there were no black people around... so why should a white person be so offended as to say anything to me?

 

[Bromley boy]

right... let me say that I am sorry if anyone takes offence from what I said.. none was meant... it is a saying my Dad used to use to stop us kids from whining that something was unfair... and it worked... cos we'd immediately stop whining while we tried to work out what was so unfair about "a black man's a*se" and tbh I literally just said it without thinking...

I suppose my point is this: There was no racist intent behind what I said, anyone who was hearing what was happening would realise that... there were no black people around... so why should a white person be so offended as to say anything to me?

That’s fine, it’s an interesting topic.

But there’s a subtle difference between what you’ve said above, which singles out a race and plays upon a negative stereotype, and people using phrases like “whiter than white” which have no racial undertone at all.

It may very well be that no offence was intended but certain phrases do have negative connotations. It’s partly a generational thing and phrases that were in common use a few decades ago would not now be considered socially acceptable by many.

 

[Intermodal]

I suppose my point is this: There was no racist intent behind what I said, anyone who was hearing what was happening would realise that... there were no black people around... so why should a white person be so offended as to say anything to me?

I think bromley boy answered the first part of your post quite well. As for why a white person would take offense - if we accept that it is the norm nowadays that people want to be seen as not racist whatsoever, then there is also a strong ambition to not be seen as complacent with what some people might view as racist terms or racism itself - and therefore will want to outwardly 'call it out' if they see it to make it clear that they don't personally use that type of language or hold that type of view as to not be judged amongst their peers.

I understand you meant no harm and I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

As for why a white person would take offense - if we accept that it is the norm nowadays that people want to be seen as not racist whatsoever, then there is also a strong ambition to not be seen as complacent with what some people might view as racist terms or racism itself - and therefore will want to outwardly 'call it out' if they see it to make it clear that they don't personally use that type of language or hold that type of view as to not be judged amongst their peers.

To my mind, many times a white person feels it neccessary to "call out" something as racist in a situation like I've described above is more to do with them hiding their own racism... after all, it was clear that there was no racist intent in what I said, there were no black people about... so why feel it neccessary to say anything at all? surely the person seeing something racist in what I said might be construed as them having a racist mind?

 

[Bromley boy]

I suppose my point is this: There was no racist intent behind what I said, anyone who was hearing what was happening would realise that... there were no black people around... so why should a white person be so offended as to say anything to me?

Perhaps their other half is black, or they have black or mixed race relatives? You never know peoples’ situation.

What is considered acceptable also varies internationally. I remember being astonished in Brazil to find gollywogs openly on sale. In the U.K. we wouldn’t use the term coloured any more, but in South Africa it is still widely used (in the “cape coloured” context) which, despite harking back to the apartheid era, doesn’t appear to be considered offensive.

 

[nidave]

Nope. Like the phrase ba ba black sheep is not racist.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Perhaps their other half is black, or they have black or mixed race relatives? You never know peoples’ situation.

maybe...

In the U.K. we wouldn’t use the term coloured any more

which reminds me of the joke where the black man says to his white mate "when you're ill you're green, when you're cold you're blue, when you're hot you're red, when you bruise you go purple, when you get sunburnt you go pink, when you die you go grey.... and you have the cheek to call me coloured?"

 

[Intermodal]

To my mind, many times a white person feels it neccessary to "call out" something as racist in a situation like I've described above is more to do with them hiding their own racism...

I see where you are coming from but I would disagree. We have many male feminists these days, as a similar example, and whilst I would not brand myself as a feminist I think that males standing up for woman's rights can only be a good thing. In the same vein I think white people standing up against the oppression of black people can only be positive, even if it is sometimes a bit overzealous. We as residents of Planet Earth should all look to treat each other equally in my view.

 

[najaB]

after all, it was clear that there was no racist intent in what I said, there were no black people about..

"I'm not racist, I would never say that if there were [insert race] people around to hear." SMH.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

"I'm not racist, I would never say that if there were [insert race] people around to hear." SMH.

not at all... I'm a Kyke, a Yid, a Heebee, a hook nose, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, I'm Kosher and I'm proud of it... I am fully aware of what happens if racism is allowed to flourish and I am sensitive as to how something innocently said {and meant} can be twisted by those of a racist mind... I am also fully aware that an over-zealous censorship of words and phrases in itself is a form of fascism... it is seeking to control how someone thinks and speaks.

I'm sorry if what I said offends you, but it was said with total innocence and with no malice of forethought... if you wish to read something sinister into it then I can hardly help that can I? as to why I wouldn't have said it if there had been any black people around? simple... I'm sensitive enough to not wish to offend them, though in reality I don't see anything sinister or racist in the phrase I used. I never have and never will...

 

[Intermodal]

not at all... I'm a Kyke, a Yid, a Heebee, a hook nose, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, I'm Kosher and I'm proud of it... I am fully aware of what happens if racism is allowed to flourish and I am sensitive as to how something innocently said {and meant} can be twisted by those of a racist mind... I am also fully aware that an over-zealous censorship of words and phrases in itself is a form of fascism... it is seeking to control how someone thinks and speaks.

I'm sorry if what I said offends you, but it was said with total innocence and with no malice of forethought... if you wish to read something sinister into it then I can hardly help that can I? as to why I wouldn't have said it if there had been any black people around? simple... I'm sensitive enough to not wish to offend them, though in reality I don't see anything sinister or racist in the phrase I used. I never have and never will...

Again, society has moved on from times when it is acceptable to make flippant comments about skin colour. Whether you mean ill or not - you can disagree with it all you want but you certainly have no right to act surprised when people pull you up on it, as this forum has done and as you were pulled up about it the other day with your neice.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm sensitive enough to not wish to offend them, though in reality I don't see anything sinister or racist in the phrase I used. I never have and never will...

With respect mate if you wouldn’t use it when you were around black people then you are clearly aware of why it might be found offensive. It “works” as an “amusing” statement by playing on a racial difference, and a negative stereotype.

I’d have no qualms about using the phrase “whiter than white” around anybody. If I went around making comments about “black mens’ ars*s” I’d expect to get some funny looks. I’d also fully expect to be explaining myself to HR at work is someone was offended and complained.

Frankly, speaking as a white male, if I heard someone saying it I’d be pretty cheesed off. At the very least I’d think they were showing very poor judgement indeed, or more likely trying to deliberately offensive.

There’s a difference between the PC brigade finding offence where there is none and knowingly using racially charged phrases like that.

 

[greyman42]

In the U.K. we wouldn’t use the term coloured any more,

I think it still gets used quite a lot and most people don't find it offensive.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Again, society has moved on from times when it is acceptable to make flippant comments about skin colour. Whether you mean ill or not - you can disagree with it all you want but you certainly have no right to act surprised when people pull you up on it, as this forum has done and as you were pulled up about it the other day with your neice.

With respect mate if you wouldn’t use it when you were around black people then you are clearly aware of why it might be found offensive. It “works” as an “amusing” statement by playing on a racial difference, and a negative stereotype.

I’d have no qualms about using the phrase “whiter than white” around anybody. If I went around making comments about “black mens’ ars*s” I’d expect to get some funny looks. I’d also fully expect to be explaining myself to HR at work is someone was offended and complained.

Frankly, speaking as a white male, if I heard someone saying it I’d be pretty cheesed off.

There’s a difference between the PC brigade finding offence where there is none and knowingly using racially charged phrases like that.

I guess my point is this... when, and why, did malice of forethought get taken out of the equation when it comes to racism? Nowadays it seems that the rule is if someone says "that's racist" then it immediately becomes unacceptable to say that thing without any critical thought or judgement applied to the phrase/ word... even stranger is the phenomenom that it isn't those that are allegedly being victimised that make the complaint... but a white person... which I just find totally odd. As a Jew I have, on more than one occasion, had to take a well meaning person to task for being "offended" on my behalf... sorry but I will decide what I find offensive and when, and will not be patronised by a middle aged middle class white lady {or more often these days- student with no life experience} and tbh I am more offended by someone taking it upon themselves to be offended on my behalf than I do any "offensive" remark

 

[Bromley boy]

Nowadays it seems that the rule is if someone says "that's racist" then it immediately becomes unacceptable to say that thing without any critical thought or judgement applied to the phrase/ word...

Well, yes, when it comes to the subject of this thread I would completely agree. There is a large “PC” brigade who almost seem to look for ways to be offended.

But I’m sure, thinking critically about the phrase you have used above, you can understand why it might be offensive for reasons which are nothing to do with “PC gone mad”.

You mentioned the word ”kike” above. That’s now considered an offensive word and I would never dream of using it. Neither would I go around making jokes playing on Jewish stereotypes.

even stranger is the phenomenom that it isn't those that are allegedly being victimised that make the complaint... but a white person...

I’m far from a member of the PC brigade, as I’m sure you’re aware, but I don’t like out and out racism. I’m not Jewish but I find Labour’s anti semitism offensive, for example. Sure it’s not personally offensive to me but I don’t need to be a member of the aggrieved group in order to see why it’s a bad thing and strongly disapprove of it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I used to view the phrase "political correctness gone mad" as a bit of a far-right dog whistle...

How silly that seems in the face of stories like this!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well, yes, when it comes to the subject of this thread I would completely agree. There is a large “PC” brigade who almost seem to look for ways to be offended.

But I’m sure, thinking critically about the phrase you have used above, you can understand why it might be offensive for reasons which are nothing to do with “PC gone mad”.

You mentioned the word ”kike” above. That’s now considered an offensive word and I would never dream of using it. Neither would I go around making jokes playing on Jewish stereotypes.

Firstly, I'm sure you realise I was quoting from "Life of Brian" above...

As to you're assertion that you wouldn't tell jokes that play on stereotypes... that's a shame..some of the best humour is in the stereotypes {think 'allo 'allo that took the mickey out of everyone's stereotype including the English} Stereotype humour can only be considered offensive if it is targetted at one race only.... and certainly some of the best Jewish comedians do nothing BUT play up to the stereotype.

I’m far from a member of the PC brigade, as I’m sure you’re aware, but I don’t like out and out racism. I’m not Jewish but I find Labour’s anti semitism offensive, for example. Sure it’s not personally offensive to me but I don’t need to be a member of the aggrieved group in order to see why it’s a bad thing and strongly disapprove of it.

Institutional racism such as that currently in the Labour party is a different matter.. we ALL have a responsibility to speak out about that... however in the case above, although in a public place, it was a private comment made between me and my niece.. it was unfortunate that the person overheard me, but as they were white I don't really think they had any right to butt into a private exchange... much in the same way that you wouldn't expect a total stranger to suddenly butt in and pass an opinion if you were discussing what happened on Eastenders last night...

I used to view the phrase "political correctness gone mad" as a bit of a far-right dog whistle...

How silly that seems in the face of stories like this!

the thing is political correctness taken to the extremes it is today IS a far right ideology... "we will control how you think and what you say and how you say it"... you would, quite rightly, be shouting if the far right were spouting that "they" should all go home {whoever this mythical they is!}..

the real problem in this country today is that everyone thinks it's their right to be offended... but by that definition there must be a right to offend!

 

[Bromley boy]

I used to view the phrase "political correctness gone mad" as a bit of a far-right dog whistle...

How silly that seems in the face of stories like this!

When I hear that term this is exactly the kind of story I imagine!

I think it still gets used quite a lot and most people don't find it offensive.

From that I assume you don’t know many ethnic minority people, particularly black people, in the U.K.

Put it this way if my (black) ex overheard someone using that term, she would call them out on it. If they didn’t understand why it was offensive she would explain it to them.

If you were in certain parts of London and used that term you’d p*ss a lot of people off and, depending on who heard you, you might have a big problem on your hands with people who wouldn’t be so patient.

The perception of what words mean changes over time and what might have been acceptable in the 1970s isn’t any longer.

 

[Bromley boy]

Firstly, I'm sure you realise I was quoting from "Life of Brian" above...

I must admit I didn’t - I’ve never seen it.

As to you're assertion that you wouldn't tell jokes that play on stereotypes... that's a shame..some of the best humour is in the stereotypes {think 'allo 'allo that took the mickey out of everyone's stereotype including the English} Stereotype humour can only be considered offensive if it is targetted at one race only.... and certainly some of the best Jewish comedians do nothing BUT play up to the stereotype.

To be clear I do see where you’re coming from and agree to an extent.

I have no problem with jokes that play on stereotypes (and tell plenty myself, but there’s a time and a place). Once again context rears its head.

What a Jewish or black comedian might say, or jokes told in the pub, wouldn't necessarily be something you should repeat in public, at work, on the train, on an Internet forum, or wherever.

Institutional racism such as that currently in the Labour party is a different matter.. we ALL have a responsibility to speak out about that... however in the case above, although in a public place, it was a private comment made between me and my niece.. it was unfortunate that the person overheard me, but as they were white I don't really think they had any right to butt into a private exchange... much in the same way that you wouldn't expect a total stranger to suddenly butt in and pass an opinion if you were discussing what happened on Eastenders last night...

I can agree with that to some extent - personally I wouldn’t intrude into a private conversation. But there are social norms and mores we all have to live by and if you go around saying things that some people consider grossly offensive you might expect to get a negative reaction.

I wouldn’t sit on a train talking loudly about kikes or p*kis, or rhyming with a child “eney meney miney mo, catch a n*gger by his toe” as my grandparents did with my mum when she was growing up (they were a product of their time rather than “racist”).

Paddywagon is also one you need to be a bit careful of these days.

That goes for everyone - in fact the most genuinely “racist” people I’ve met have themselves been from ethnic minorities. Some of whom seem to think their ethnicity gives them a free pass. It doesn’t.

It’s just a reality of living in the U.K. in 2018.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I can agree with that to some extent - personally I wouldn’t intrude into a private conversation. But there are social norms and mores we all have to live by and if you say things that some people consider grossly offensive you might expect to get a negative reaction from some people.

I wouldn’t sit on a train talking loudly about kikes or p*kis, or rhyming with a child “eney meney miney mo, catch a n*gger by his toe” as my grandparents did with my mum when she was growing up (they were a product of their time rather than “racist”).

Nor would I, as I said the comment I made, although in public, was privately made and not for anyone else's ears so in fact I have just as much right to be offended that that someone was eavesdropping on my conversation and then took it upon themselves to be a self-appointed thought police... I'm not though.... I just accept it's a fact of today's world where people think they have the right to snoop and judge other's private lives {maybe because theirs is so empty?}

Paddywagon is also one you need to be a bit careful of these days.

really?? that's a new one on me... and I was brought up among London Irish!

It’s just a reality of living in the U.K. in 2018.

That's the saddest part... you, like so many other people, seem to be resigned to ever greater intrusion by the thought police...

As I said earlier in this thread... the test used to be "was the comment made with racist intent" whereas today the test is "is any random passer by offended by the comment" and THAT isn't a healthy place to be.. what if I overheard you calling someone a Shylock because they wouldn't lend you a tenner? you're obviously referencing Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice...but Shylock was a Jewish character.... so I can, under the current rules, take it as a racial slur and can then report you to the HR department for being racist and, more than likely, my complaint would be upheld and you would get a verbal warning at least... and that dear friend is just manifestly unfair!

 

[Bromley boy]

Nor would I, as I said the comment I made, although in public, was privately made and not for anyone else's ears so in fact I have just as much right to be offended that that someone was eavesdropping on my conversation and then took it upon themselves to be a self-appointed thought police... I'm not though.... I just accept it's a fact of today's world where people think they have the right to snoop and judge other's private lives {maybe because theirs is so empty?}

Once again I’m sort of arguing from both sides.

I agree with much of that, but you also have to accept that just because you consider something acceptable doesn’t mean it’s generally considered acceptable.

really?? that's a new one on me... and I was brought up among London Irish!

It winds some people up these days.

That's the saddest part... you, like so many other people, seem to be resigned to ever greater intrusion by the thought police...

As I said earlier in this thread... the test used to be "was the comment made with racist intent" whereas today the test is "is any random passer by offended by the comment" and THAT isn't a healthy place to be.. what if I overheard you calling someone a Shylock because they wouldn't lend you a tenner? you're obviously referencing Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice...but Shylock was a Jewish character.... so I can, under the current rules, take it as a racial slur and can then report you to the HR department for being racist and, more than likely, my complaint would be upheld and you would get a verbal warning at least... and that dear friend is just manifestly unfair!

Quite the opposite.

It’s partly a product of upbringing and exposure to different perspectives. Growing up in London probably makes a difference.

Again, context: If I called someone a Shylock because I thought they were being tight, I’d be invoking a negative stereotype. If I was discussing the term in the context of a Shakespearean play that would be very different.

It isn’t only about someone’s intention, it’s also about the words they choose to use.

The phrase you mentioned above: “a black man’s ar*e isn’t fair and you don’t see him complaining” is one that a great many people consider offensive in 2018 for reasons that have been explained. You should take that on board.

If aforementioned ex girlfriend’s 6”6 brother overheard you saying that he’d be, very publically, asking you what the hell you thought you were playing at. You’d need to do some fast talking (and apologising) at that point.

I assume you don’t go through life wanting to wilfully upset and annoy people. So, now that you know that it’s generally considered offensive, whether or not you consider it to be offensive, I strongly suggest you refrain from using it in future!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I assume you don’t go through life wanting to wilfully upset and annoy people. So, now that you know that it’s generally considered offensive, whether or not you consider it to be offensive, I strongly suggest you refrain from using it in future!

I've got to say that I've said it many times in the past with no-one objecting... and that was the first time someone had done so... when I originally posted the story I was, considering the subject matter, expecting just a modicum of support... I can't say that I won't use it again... simply because it is a trigger phrase ingrained from childhood... much in the same way I often catch my sister saying to her eldest "you're older to know better" when said eldest complains that one of the others had started an argument... after all it's what my Mum used to say!

 

[Bromley boy]

I've got to say that I've said it many times in the past with no-one objecting... and that was the first time someone had done so... when I originally posted the story I was, considering the subject matter, expecting just a modicum of support... I can't say that I won't use it again... simply because it is a trigger phrase ingrained from childhood... much in the same way I often catch my sister saying to her eldest "you're older to know better" when said eldest complains that one of the others had started an argument... after all it's what my Mum used to say!

My only advice would be that, if you’re ever in Croydon, Streatham or Brixton, don’t ever use that phrase. Under any circumstances.

I’m sure things are different on the Gower peninsula (which I admit I thought was in Scotland until I googled it 5 mins ago).

That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take it on board though. There’s no need to unnecessarily p*ss people off, is there?

 

[AlterEgo]

I used to view the phrase "political correctness gone mad" as a bit of a far-right dog whistle...

How silly that seems in the face of stories like this!

Problem is you’ve now got a fog of war. Some cries of PC gone mad are a right wing dog whistle, but now a lot of centrist or liberal people are saying the same things.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Problem is you’ve now got a fog of war. Some cries of PC gone mad are a right wing dog whistle, but now a lot of centrist or liberal people are saying the same things.

That's because the "Politically Correct" movement* actually HAS gone mad now!

*=If it could ever be called a movement- it can, but these days more in the context of bowels!

 

[deltic]

This phrase's history has absolutely nothing whatsoever do do with skin colour (and thereby, race).
It is a reference to an old advertising campaign for a brand of washing powder. This powder contained a small amount of blue/UV dye in it, making white garments appear "whiter than white" in daylight, and that phrase was the slogan. The UV component of daylight causes the UV dye to add extra reflection over and above what would normally visible, thus giving the garment the appearance of being whiter than white.

The phrase is still used in this context. Example:

It is suggested it actually, like many common sayings, comes from Shakespeare

Who sees his true-love in her naked bed
Teaching the sheets a whiter hue than white
But,when his glutton eye so full hath fed
His other agents aim at like delight?
Who is so faint, that dare not be so bold
To touch the fire, the weather being cold?

 

[najaB]

I guess my point is this... when, and why, did malice of forethought get taken out of the equation when it comes to racism?

You can be racist without malice. I've been offered watermelon and collard greens in the US because "that's what black people like". Good intentions, but still racist.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You can be racist without malice. I've been offered watermelon and collard greens in the US because "that's what black people like". Good intentions, but still racist.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist?s=t

racist
[rey-sist]

noun

1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism

racism
[rey-siz-uh m]

noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

From these dictionary definitions it can be clearly seen that offering someone a particular food because others of their racial/ cultural group have a tendency to like those foods is not racist in the slightest.... as a Jew I would not be offended if someone suggested I had a bagel with lox {smoked salmon} but I would be offended if I was wearing my kippah and was offered a bacon sandwich!

Also the dictionary clearly shows in it's definition that there must be malice for something to be racist.

I think the problem is that, due to past experience, many can be oversensitive... if you stop and think about what someone has said they haven't had any malice... I'd further suggest that anyone who automatically assumes anyone white who says something that MAY have negative connotations is a racist is also a racist themselves as they are holding a negative view of white people and are making an assumption based on a generalisation that isn't true... MOST people speak without thinking too much about what connotations could be read... only what the literal meaning of the words are....

and TBH I think that's the way it should be. If you ever meet me in the street please feel free to call me a white honkey... I won't be offended!

 

[adrock1976]

Having read through this thread, the phrase "whiter than white" appears to me to be a marketing slogan of Daz washing powder. There is no racism involved in that phrase at all. There again, this is probably London's Big Conversation radio station trying to provoke outrage amongst the general public.

On a side note, I believe the Metropolitain Police have got more than enough on their hands at the moment rather than getting in a tizzy about marketing slogan phrases. For example the recent increase in acid attacks and knife crime, how on earth Cressida Dick became the big chief several years after gunning down Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell underground (mistaken identity), the unsolved case of the fire at New Cross in 1980 where all the fatalities happened to be people of black ethnicity, the shooting of Dorothy Groce that was the catalyst for the Brixton riots in 1985, the "kettling" tactics used for demonstrations that led to the fatality of Ian Tomlinson, and the Stephen Lawrence murder case that was a farce from the beginning and led to the report from the Public Inquiry branding the Met as "institutionally racist".

Perhaps once the Met has got to grips with issues like the above, perhaps they could then discuss on the airwaves whether certain marketing slogans are racist or not?

 

[najaB]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist?s=t

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.