ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Stoney1979]

So how come it's OK to be angry about those other projects, but not the HSTs?

Don't get me wrong, my eyebrows were raised very high when I found out that the SR franchise went for the HSTs. However, they have, and there are reasonably sound reasons behind it - for better or worse, as it has turned out. And that's that.

Everyone has a choice to make. Either get behind it - or sit and complain about what "might have been", which is quite a big waste of time and arguably not for this thread.

 

[Journeyman]

Eh? It was a general observation. There’s far too many comments along the lines of “Wabtec/Porterbrook/whoever need to pull their finger out/try harder” etc etc as if the organisations involved are doing it deliberately and can’t be bothered. If people really believe that, then there are words to describe them that will have the moderators in a cold sweat.

I certainly don't think anyone is screwing up deliberately, but I do think a lot of the problems were inevitable when dealing with such an old, intensively-used and now rather unreliable fleet, which is why I think this project should have rung alarm bells right from the start. I want the HSTs to work because if they don't, ScotRail are in real trouble, but a lot of people could have told you this was all somewhat predictable. It means we'll have to go through all the pain of another fleet introduction, with all the associated risk, in about ten years' time, and that could all have been avoided if a better choice was made in the first place.

 

[Journeyman]

Either get behind it - or sit and complain about what "might have been", which is quite a big waste of time and arguably not for this thread.

Ultimately, what I think doesn't make much difference, because I'm not involved! I just think some of the comments on here are a bit ridiculous. Slagging off the 170s and praising the HST to the skies is all well and good, but at least the 170s are actually here and working (at least for now).

 

[Stoney1979]

I certainly don't think anyone is screwing up deliberately, but I do think a lot of the problems were inevitable when dealing with such an old, intensively-used and now rather unreliable fleet, which is why I think this project should have rung alarm bells right from the start. I want the HSTs to work because if they don't, ScotRail are in real trouble, but a lot of people could have told you this was all somewhat predictable. It means we'll have to go through all the pain of another fleet introduction, with all the associated risk, in about ten years' time, and that could all have been avoided if a better choice was made in the first place.

Well, yes, you may well be correct there, it could ultimately be a right old cock up and in 10 years time we'll look and consider "what were they thinking?". As much as I'm personally an HST fanboy, the signs at the moment are not particularly good. In days to come perhaps you can sit back and say "I told you so". But, other than the late delivery, you can't realistically do that just yet because the reality of what we are talking about hasn't happened yet.

So, this chat is about how, where, and when they do actually come into service, not all the rest of the niff-naff.

 

[43096]

I certainly don't think anyone is screwing up deliberately, but I do think a lot of the problems were inevitable when dealing with such an old, intensively-used and now rather unreliable fleet, which is why I think this project should have rung alarm bells right from the start. I want the HSTs to work because if they don't, ScotRail are in real trouble, but a lot of people could have told you this was all somewhat predictable. It means we'll have to go through all the pain of another fleet introduction, with all the associated risk, in about ten years' time, and that could all have been avoided if a better choice was made in the first place.

Not disagreeing with that. A project like this is always something of an unknown, because until you actually get vehicles in for conversion and start cutting metal, you don’t really know the condition. How thorough was their last refurb: did it include substantial below the surface work or was it only surface deep? Given that I understand Wabtec have been at the point of rejecting vehicles from the programme because they are in such poor condition, then I think we know the answer.

 

[Chrism20]

Is it such a radical suggestion that before they quoted and priced and timed the job they should have taken a rake for dismantling and refurbishing to better understand the anatomy of the carriages and thier condition? Too much like common sense. ? Too much common sense for transport Scotland or scotrail to insist on such homework before placing the order on which thier plans were based? Once again they assume all will go on time and commit to hand back existing trains on time.

The only problem with this is where was the set that was to be cut up on spec during the bid process to come from and where was one random set with a host of complicated modifications to go to if the bid wasn't successful?

IIRC Wabtec done the Chiltern refurbishment around 2013 and although the doors are a different design and the carriages are to a different spec they won't have just plucked timelines out of thin air so something has went seriously wrong somewhere.

 

[SC43090]

I completely agree, but apparently we are all just “fanboys” of the HST if we do not agree that we must replace everything that is old with everything that is shiny and new and will apparently work straight out of the box. Nor if we believe that the Mk3 is a tired old rattle box that apparently spills your coffee around the coach like it’s in space every time it goes near to a curve.

Yes they are older stock, and yes we are well aware of the many documented issues with the build of the Mk3s, but a large proportion of the blame in this affair lies with Wabtec for taking on far more than they can manage. Thankfully we are now starting to see the long overdue fruits of the project with second sets for ScotRail and GWR nearly ready for delivery, and yes ScotRail and Transport Scotland deserve their smaller share of the blame for believing Wabtec’s over ambitious timescales, but at least a ScotRail will have a just as acceptable back up in the form of the unrefurbished mostly low density sets. And as you say Jingsmonty, it’s not as if we’ve heard hoards of complaints from GWR and their set either! And to pile on the pressure, of which I’m sure there’s far more behind the scenes, we’ve also now had the first public statement from ScotRail blamining Wabtec for this issue as well.

And it’s not as if there’s been conversion issues with the newer stock either, 460-458 projects anyone!

I understand that a couple of problems at Wabtec Doncaster is they found corrision but after 40 years of been flocked to death what would one expect & is been sorted......

The other problem is that around a year or so ago a quiet a few members of staff left & joined Hitachi brand new depot at Doncaster leaving Wabtec trying to recruit new members of staff... for over a year now there's been a big banner over the side of one of the paint shops advertising for welders engineers etc etc.....

If you are just out of education / collage & you've got the option of a high tec job at Hitachi or an old fashioned engineering job at Wabtec.... Which one would you go for????

Last week i had a trip round Hitachi works at Newton Aycliffe & if i'd just come out of education i know were i would be looking & my first port of call wouldn't be Wabtec......

SC43090

 

[blackhill]

Do you know what? I actually think the HST is the most successful train this country has ever seen, both technically and commercially. It's transformed long-distance travel, making it far more comfortable, faster and more profitable than it ever was before. I'm hugely impressed by what the HST has achieved in it's lifetime.

But you know what? That lifetime is over. This project was a bad idea right from the start, and there are plenty in the industry who will tell you that. It's time they were retired gracefully, and the huge problems getting them introduced in Scotland is ample evidence for that.

It doesn't matter whether they're better than 170s or not, or whether new trains are better or worse or on time, or whatever. The simple fact is they're not here yet, and there's a load of problems potentially on the horizon that may never get resolved.

Whoever signed off on this has a lot of questions to answer.

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

68+Mk5 or Class 80x would have done too (or did they bar underfloor engines?) Or Stadler FLIRT.

 

[gsnedders]

68+Mk5 or Class 80x would have done too (or did they bar underfloor engines?) Or Stadler FLIRT.

Underfloor engines were acceptable. (The ITT specifically noted refurbished 170s could comply.)

 

[Seaniboy]

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

Requested ?

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

Request ? It was Gov planned in 2011 long before the tender process, 7 Cities was the Gov lead and rail fell into that economic policy. You think Scotrail Abellendio wanted to do it ? Spend shareholder profit ? Lol.

https://beta.gov.scot/policies/cities-regions/

 

[Seaniboy]

Does this mean that SR have 5 sets already in their possession, including the refurbished one?

Two in Dundee, saw another one in Glasgow Queen St tucked away this morning.

Apparently training for drivers, but they sit there (Dundee) doing nothing most the time - Protection is just over a metre high crap fence on the station side tracks, they are going to end up seriously vandalised if SR insist on keeping them there.

The Dundee stock, one still has First carriages.

 

[Seaniboy]

This is the other HST behind the other First carriages I posted above taken from the other side of the tracks, no identifiable carriages on this one, as you can see SR security via fencing is quite superb!

 

[Carntyne]

View attachment 53291 View attachment 53291 View attachment 53292 View attachment 53293

Two in Dundee, saw another one in Glasgow Queen St tucked away this morning.

Apparently training for drivers, but they sit there (Dundee) doing nothing most the time - Protection is just over a metre high crap fence on the station side tracks, they are going to end up seriously vandalised if SR insist on keeping them there.

The Dundee stock, one still has First carriages.

They don't sit there doing nothing. Crew training is being carried out. SR stable lots of trains there.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does this mean that SR have 5 sets already in their possession, including the refurbished one?

Six sets if you include the refurbished one. All the ones I listed are unconverted slam door stock.

 

[jopsuk]

This is the other HST behind the other First carriages I posted above taken from the other side of the tracks, no identifiable carriages on this one, as you can see SR security via fencing is quite superb!

That's the refurbished set, you can see the rebuilt door and final paint scheme on the tiny bit of the carriage in the picture

 

[Mingulay]

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

There in lies the blame. Whilst it’s a nice wish for scot gov. What are the chances of civil servants and politicians got of understanding the technical issues of their goal. ? I would suggest none. Transport Scotland have demonstrated time and time again a real knack for lack detail, risk assessment and common sense. Decisions are based on what looks good for the government and thier wider aspiration for the country. So no surprises if this turns out to be undeliverable or costly in the long term. It’s a Scottish Government speciality. !

 

[Mingulay]

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

There in lies the blame. Whilst it’s a nice wish for scot gov. What are the chances of civil servants and politicians got of understanding the technical issues of their goal. ? I would suggest none. Transport Scotland have demonstrated time and time again a real knack for lack detail, risk assessment and common sense. Decisions are based on what looks good for the government and thier wider aspiration for the country. So no surprises if this turns out to be undeliverable or costly in the long term. It’s a Scottish Government speciality. !

 

[Journeyman]

The Scottish goverrment requested the new franchise to use inter-city type stock on longer routes.

HSTs are not the only trains to comply with this requirement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Underfloor engines were acceptable. (The ITT specifically noted refurbished 170s could comply.)

What wasn't InterCity, then? I'd kind-of assumed it meant better than a Class 170. In that case a CAF Class 195 with decent seating would also have done, or maybe CAF would have done a DMU version of the new WCML EMUs. Loads of options if door positioning and underfloor engines weren't an issue.

 

[hwl]

What wasn't InterCity, then? I'd kind-of assumed it meant better than a Class 170. In that case a CAF Class 195 with decent seating would also have done, or maybe CAF would have done a DMU version of the new WCML EMUs. Loads of options if door positioning and underfloor engines weren't an issue.

The other issues was the amount of extra capacity they wanted to add at the same time, the HSTs will do this very cheaply and help establish what real passenger demand levels are given everyone thinks there is suppressed demand, the question is how much.

In the longer term they will probably want Bi-mode when the HSTs are retired.

 

[Journeyman]

What wasn't InterCity, then? I'd kind-of assumed it meant better than a Class 170. In that case a CAF Class 195 with decent seating would also have done, or maybe CAF would have done a DMU version of the new WCML EMUs. Loads of options if door positioning and underfloor engines weren't an issue.

The term is certainly extremely vague, and I think some people are interpreting it rather narrowly, especially the "underfloor engines are a tool of Satan" brigade. A lot of things could be done to bring significant improvement with a wide range of stock types, and in 2013 Hitrans put together some interesting proposals for 170 refurbs: https://hitrans.org.uk/documents/Turbo_Boost_-_Class_170_Refurbishment_Scoping_Project.pdf

The biggest flaw in the HST idea, quite apart from all the problems that have been experienced with the refurbs, is the short remaining life. Honestly, you'll get ten years tops, if that, and then you lumber the railway with a need to replace trains yet again, but this time you'll have a seriously nose-diving reliability problem on your hands. 170s may not be great but they're pretty robust, and the only failure I've experienced on the HML was the horn icing up! What the HST plan has done, according to an expert in such things that I have regular dealings with, is kick the can down the road for future rolling stock replacement, potentially lumbering the next incoming franchisee with a big problem that is going to make bidding a somewhat less attractive option. A different option could have seen things sorted for 20+ years and made things much more stable and sorted, while still delivering substantial improvements.

 

[Journeyman]

The other issues was the amount of extra capacity they wanted to add at the same time, the HSTs will do this very cheaply and help establish what real passenger demand levels are given everyone thinks there is suppressed demand, the question is how much.

I think the HSTs are getting less and less cheap by the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest flaw in the HST idea, quite apart from all the problems that have been experienced with the refurbs, is the short remaining life. Honestly, you'll get ten years tops, if that, and then you lumber the railway with a need to replace trains yet again, but this time you'll have a seriously nose-diving reliability problem on your hands. 170s may not be great but they're pretty robust, and the only failure I've experienced on the HML was the horn icing up! What the HST plan has done, according to an expert in such things that I have regular dealings with, is kick the can down the road for future rolling stock replacement, potentially lumbering the next incoming franchisee with a big problem that is going to make bidding a somewhat less attractive option. A different option could have seen things sorted for 20+ years and made things much more stable and sorted, while still delivering substantial improvements.

Is that due to a hope for electrification on that timescale? Mind you, as I said they could have ordered 68+Mk5 and replaced the loco when the wires went up. The 68s would doubtless find other uses.

 

[sprinterguy]

What wasn't InterCity, then? I'd kind-of assumed it meant better than a Class 170. In that case a CAF Class 195 with decent seating would also have done, or maybe CAF would have done a DMU version of the new WCML EMUs. Loads of options if door positioning and underfloor engines weren't an issue.

This was the requirement for inter-city stock set out in the Invitation to Tender, page 118:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/33332/scotrail-franchise-itt-4855286-45.pdf
Bidders shall ensure that on all inter-city services they only use rolling stock that, in addition to all the existing passenger facilities, complies with the following minimum specification. The full requirements are set out in Appendix 3 (Rolling stock quality specification (passenger facing element)) and Schedule 6.2 (Inter-city Rolling Stock) of the Franchise Agreement.

• High quality and safe passenger environment consistent with modern inter-city passenger rolling stock in the UK and Europe. This condition is to be maintained throughout the Franchise Term, by means of an interior refresh if necessary;
• Bogied vehicles;
• Standard Class accommodation with a seating density no greater than a 2+2 seat configuration;
• Where First / Business Class is provided, a clear differentiation between quality of First / Business and Standard Class accommodation;
• Seats aligned with windows where practicable and where this does not lead to a significant loss in capacity or unacceptable leg room;
• Air conditioning and appropriate heating, including during station stops;
• Toilet provision: where routes and services in Scotland are operated currently with rolling stock that have controlled emission toilets installed, this must continue. Where routes and services in Scotland are operated currently with rolling stock that do not have controlled emission toilets installed, Bidders must provide evidence of a plan to provide rolling stock for that route and service that will have CET retention tanks installed on or before 1 January 2020. Any rolling stock which does not have CET retention tanks installed from the commencement of the ScotRail franchise shall have a reliable means by which toilets are prevented from emptying whilst the train on which they are equipped is stationary within stations until 1 January 2020;
•Facilities for storing large items of luggage within sight/proximity of passengers when seated – which in terms of capacity should be taken to be the same as provided currently on a ScotRail Class 170 with the addition of an extra luggage stack in each carriage which will occupy the space of approximately two seats; overhead racks for airline cabin style luggage, flexible space for pushchairs/prams and cycle storage facilities (minimum 2 cycles per 3 car multiple unit or equivalent);
• Wi-Fi (capability fully compatible with modern standards);
• 230V power sockets (one per pair of seats) capable of charging a laptop, mobile phone or similar device;
• Tables at all seats (may be fixed or folding);
• No more than 50% of the seats to be ‘airline’ style layout;
• Design to maximise comfort for standing passengers at peak times, e.g. space and handhold provision;
• Bodyside door locations / width and interior layout to facilitate rapid boarding and alighting; and
• Ability to support at least an at-seat catering service which is available to all passengers.

This is the pertinent quote regarding the class 170s in their current state:

For guidance, Bidders should note that, in the opinion of Transport Scotland, the existing Class 170 vehicles as currently fitted out would not comply, but if suitably refurbished they would be capable of being compliant.

And I think that this target in service date might pose a problem:

The Franchisee will be expected to ensure that the whole fleet providing inter-city services shall be compliant as early as possible but by no later than from the end of CP5, which is in March 2019

Noting that the acceptance date for the final refurbished HST sets was stipulated in the franchise agreement to be the end of December 2018.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly I would question whether HSTs meet spec on this:

Bodyside door locations / width and interior layout to facilitate rapid boarding and alighting

I would suggest that wide double doors at quarters/thirds, or short FLIRT style vehicles with a central double door, would be necessary to meet this.

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks for sharing - I think that completely trashes the idea espoused by many here that nothing other than the HST will do.

 

[hwl]

I think the HSTs are getting less and less cheap by the day.

It depends if Abellio are paying for all of the extra or not!

 

[YorkshireBear]

It depends if Abellio are paying for all of the extra or not!

And how much fines for late delivery of franchise commitment are to Transport Scotland.

 

[Highlandspring]

ScotRail’s 43163 is out on hire to LNER again today, covering for 43272 which was having TPWS issues. It’s working 1E10 1000 Edinburgh - Kings Cross just now.