ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[RupertW]

So looking at the document even from 2019 it only says that "most" intercity services will be formed of HSTs (which could mean anything over 50%). Does this mean that there will still be 170 workings from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness in the long term? Until now I had been under the impression that only HSTs would be used on these routes.

 

[yorkie]

I am glad to see we are back on topic now, but can I remind people that if you wish to discuss something else (this thread is about Scotrail HSTs), please create a new thread, in the relevant section and with an appropriate title. Thanks.

 

[Altnabreac]

So looking at the document even from 2019 it only says that "most" intercity services will be formed of HSTs (which could mean anything over 50%). Does this mean that there will still be 170 workings from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness in the long term? Until now I had been under the impression that only HSTs would be used on these routes.

There is still going to need to be some movement of units between Inverness and the Central Belt and I wonder whether there will be some services that act primarily as commuter services say from Inverurie to Aberdeen in the morning peak that might be better as a 6 car 170? So I'd certainly expect there to be some diagrammed Inverness - Aberdeen and Inverness - Perth services that are not HSTs.

 

[SC43090]

As anybody got any idea when the HST will start in traffic????

 

[connormill]

As anybody got any idea when the HST will start in traffic????

I think the 9th was mentioned in this forum, but no official word from SR yet

 

[InOban]

Another post suggested a delay to the 15th.

 

[connormill]

Could easily believe it, given the way the timeline is going I'd be surprised if we even have 2 refurb sets in time for the December timetable change

 

[dmkc]

Unless I was seeing things there was a PC swap going on with the refurb set at Haymarket this morning. Looked like a non-refurb PC was backing down onto it.

 

[MatthewJ18]

Unless I was seeing things there was a PC swap going on with the refurb set at Haymarket this morning. Looked like a non-refurb PC was backing down onto it.

Nope, you're eyes were definitely correct, looked to have one of the FGW PC's at the depot side of the set. With the other FGW PC sitting by itself on the station side of the depot.

 

[chuff chuff]

So looking at the document even from 2019 it only says that "most" intercity services will be formed of HSTs (which could mean anything over 50%). Does this mean that there will still be 170 workings from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness in the long term? Until now I had been under the impression that only HSTs would be used on these routes.

Likelihood the early and late runs might be 170's due to the additional stops these runs usually have.

 

[Stoney1979]

My view is in recent times the train seems a lot busier to and from Inverness. For example the 6:50 am train is well full most days this last while have been using it twice a week.

Agree that HST will take more passengers back to rail. A lot of my colleagues have said they will come out if their cars and back in the train when that happens.

Monty do you think the HST will be significantly better in snow?

The Inv - Ed A9/M90 etc. experience is grim, but the 170s are worse if you marry-up cost, time, convenience, passenger comfort and general pleasure. Not that the 170s are a actually a bad train, before I get shot down about that. It's just, all things considered, they aren't suitable for the route.

You also have to think that sitting relaxing on a train with some of the best views in the world whizzing by is, in itself, a driver for people to take a train rather than drive.

That's why it's disappointing to hear that the focus of the new HSTs is on lines already pretty well served by LNER, XC and so on. The greatest uplift in experience and capacity will be on the HML, with Aberdeen - Inv a very close second. Sadly, those routes seem to be second last, and last, respectively, in the SR priority list.

 

[mullac30]

To be fair, I had a 6 car 170 from INV to HYM on a Sunday a few weeks ago and it was a very quiet and relaxing journey - i think i was quite far away from the engine underfloor because it was unusually silent for a 170. Also the seats on a 170 are really comfortable, more so than the grammer seats on the 158.

 

[jingsmonty]

To be fair, I had a 6 car 170 from INV to HYM on a Sunday a few weeks ago and it was a very quiet and relaxing journey - i think i was quite far away from the engine underfloor because it was unusually silent for a 170. Also the seats on a 170 are really comfortable, more so than the grammer seats on the 158.

Totally agree - that's the one thing that I'll miss about the 170s too...comfortable & correctly pitched seats. Although the GWR grammer seats on the unrefurbished HST (although the same as the 158s) actually aren't quite as bad - not sure why, maybe the pitch is slightly better?

As far as the 'high density' GWR seat layout on a few of the Mk3s, it's actually not that bad either - I've tried them out on our training train & the legroom is perfectly acceptable (& I am fairly tall) - just not good if you like a table seat.

As another poster said, the 170s aren't bad trains, they just aren't suitable for the Scotrail Inter7city network.

 

[jingsmonty]

The Inv - Ed A9/M90 etc. experience is grim, but the 170s are worse if you marry-up cost, time, convenience, passenger comfort and general pleasure. Not that the 170s are a actually a bad train, before I get shot down about that. It's just, all things considered, they aren't suitable for the route.

You also have to think that sitting relaxing on a train with some of the best views in the world whizzing by is, in itself, a driver for people to take a train rather than drive.

That's why it's disappointing to hear that the focus of the new HSTs is on lines already pretty well served by LNER, XC and so on. The greatest uplift in experience and capacity will be on the HML, with Aberdeen - Inv a very close second. Sadly, those routes seem to be second last, and last, respectively, in the SR priority list.

I think this is partly the reasoning behind this decision - there is more experience of HST operation on the ECML North of Waverley, in case of any issues (which will, hopefully, not be major ones, but teething issues).

Agree that the biggest improvement will be in my neck of the woods -the HML, but there is still infrastructure work going on (at Pitlochry, Aviemore & Inverness itself), plus maintenance/traincrew training.

Hopefully, when A2I & HML are mainly HST services, the infrastructure will be in place & any teerhing problems ironed out..

 

[marks87]

#RefurbSetWatch

It’s currently at Haymarket depot, split in half.

 

[jingsmonty]

Hope this isn't a fault - it may just be for training purposes...

#RefurbSetWatch

It’s currently at Haymarket depot, split in half.

 

[mr-magoo]

Hope this isn't a fault - it may just be for training purposes...

It's in for maintenance and going to Aberdeen tomorrow

 

[Highlandspring]

It’ll be out this Wednesday (10th) working 1Z51 1527 Edinburgh - Aberdeen calling at Dundee only; a special run for the media apparently.

 

[jingsmonty]

Cool, thanks for the info....hopefully we'll see some good photos of the refurbished interiors!

It’ll be out this Wednesday (10th) working 1Z51 1527 Edinburgh - Aberdeen calling at Dundee only; a special run for the media apparently.

 

[scotrail170407]

Heres the working - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/M19570/2018/10/10/advanced

 

[chuff chuff]

Cool, thanks for the info....hopefully we'll see some good photos of the refurbished interiors!

At least it should have dried out by now.

 

[jingsmonty]

Heres the working - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/M19570/2018/10/10/advanced

Cool-won't get to see it, but hopefully someone will...look forward to seeing it in full service!

 

[Stoney1979]

It’ll be out this Wednesday (10th) working 1Z51 1527 Edinburgh - Aberdeen calling at Dundee only; a special run for the media apparently.

Thanks. This presumably means that the operational service intro of the first set is imminent.

Looks like SR are going with the "this is what it'll all be like, eventually.....", but, in meantime, blaming Wabtec for why it isn't now.

 

[marks87]

Maybe that’s why it’s split - run half-and-half with an unrefurbished set to show off the aim, and the current reality





(For the record, I don’t believe this will happen, and the split was due to available siding length at the depot).

 

[scotrail170407]

Cool-won't get to see it, but hopefully someone will...look forward to seeing it in full service!

I will try my best to see it at Dundee when visiting the v&a.

 

[Stoney1979]

Maybe that’s why it’s split - run half-and-half with an unrefurbished set to show off the aim, and the current reality





(For the record, I don’t believe this will happen, and the split was due to available siding length at the depot).

I guess it could go either way on some instances. GWR presumably put that "high density" arrangement in for a reason, which would be that mostly solo-travelling commuters would rather have any sort of seat (largely airline) than stand. So, on the packed into-Paddington commuter trains, the GWR arrangement would probably be quite welcome by many. Whereas, at other times of the week/day families and other wanting less-dense seating and tables would be the majority. Difficult for SR to square the circle.

 

[jingsmonty]

I guess it could go either way on some instances. GWR presumably put that "high density" arrangement in for a reason, which would be that mostly solo-travelling commuters would rather have any sort of seat (largely airline) than stand. So, on the packed into-Paddington commuter trains, the GWR arrangement would probably be quite welcome by many. Whereas, at other times of the week/day families and other wanting less-dense seating and tables would be the majority. Difficult for SR to square the circle.

I've tried the high density seating on the training train - whilst it isn't in any way suitable for long term use on Scotrail, the legroom is fine & extra seats would be welcome on the busiest trains on the HML. The refurbished sets are needed ASAP though.

I'm thinking 12.53 Inverness to Edinburgh & the afternoon Northbound one (probably from Waverley too). I could see the 17.42 Edinburgh to Inverness being an HST in Dec, as, currently, this is the same unit that works the 12.53 South. Could be an 'out & back' working, both for the train crew & the HST set? (Inverness crew to Perth & back).

That would be a logical diagram to start HST working on the HML - I could also see the 06.50 Inverness to Edinburgh being an HST too. This is a limited stop service & is one that business people may use, instead of the LNER Highland Chieftain (07.55 departure). Not sure when that would work back though...

Have heard that the HML will have 2x HST services from Dec....

 

[jingsmonty]

I take it that seat reservations won't work when the HSTs are introduced, due to 3 differing seat layouts being in operation (Refurbished, GWR & High Density GWR)? Also, wonder how the catering will work, given that the 'Refurbs' & 'Classics' will be working on interchangeable diagrams? Scotrail are hardly going to keep fresh food stock on hand, just in case it's a refurbished set that turns up!

Staffing may not be such an issue, as, apparently, all HSTs are supposed to have 2x catering staff on each set (either 2x trolleys or 1 trolley & 1 buffet).

 

[cactustwirly]

I've tried the high density seating on the training train - whilst it isn't in any way suitable for long term use on Scotrail, the legroom is fine & extra seats would be welcome on the busiest trains on the HML. The refurbished sets are needed ASAP though.

I'm thinking 12.53 Inverness to Edinburgh & the afternoon Northbound one (probably from Waverley too). I could see the 17.42 Edinburgh to Inverness being an HST in Dec, as, currently, this is the same unit that works the 12.53 South. Could be an 'out & back' working, both for the train crew & the HST set? (Inverness crew to Perth & back).

That would be a logical diagram to start HST working on the HML - I could also see the 06.50 Inverness to Edinburgh being an HST too. This is a limited stop service & is one that business people may use, instead of the LNER Highland Chieftain (07.55 departure). Not sure when that would work back though...

Have heard that the HML will have 2x HST services from Dec....

I was under the impression that ScotRail had taken on the Low Density sets?

 

[jingsmonty]

I was under the impression that ScotRail had taken on the Low Density sets?

There may be more low density coaches kicking about somewhere, but set HA05 (training train) has a mixture of both. I'm not sure if they have been sorted out in any particularly organised way, but the 'classic' sets will need a fair amount of remarshalling - maybe the high density coaches will be removed? Also, set HA01 has a Buffet First class, which will have to be swapped for a full First Class coach. So maybe some movement of coaches imminent. Maybe the high density coaches will be sent to Wabtec 1st? I'm not sure if the unrefurbished coaches in Scotland currently are in addition to the stock on hand at Wabtec for refurbishment, or will they have to be rotated out & sent down?