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Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

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Butts

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No, there won't be a "Pullman" service. :p One carriage of first class, with an at-seat meal service and retaining the same seats they were fitted with by GWR (Which are different to the Primarius ones fitted to LNER trains).

I believe there will be alcoholic drinks, but I'm afraid I'm unable to confirm whether they will be complimentary. ;)

It's not on GWR - but those lovely Brown Armchairs are far better than the replacement 800 Ironing Boards. Living in South Wales I have experienced both going to the smoke.
 
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Butts

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Having read Butts post again, I think he means one carriage of first class, rather than one whole train? I originally thought the latter as well.

I do indeed and with the "Brown Armchairs" would be most happy - free scotch an added bonus.
 

sprinterguy

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I do indeed and with the "Brown Armchairs" would be most happy - free scotch an added bonus.
Excellent, I think we're all on the same page now. Yeah, it's the brown armchairs that the Scotrail trains will remain fitted with, though you may have to pay for the scotch. ;)
 

Butts

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Excellent, I think we're all on the same page now. Yeah, it's the brown armchairs that the Scotrail trains will remain fitted with, though you may have to pay for the scotch. ;)

The GWR 1st Class Seats are the best out there in my view so that's a bonus. In my view the carriages should retain the GWR Livery as a sign of where they came from. Indeed why not introduce a direct service from Edinburgh to Cardiff ? (I really have lost the plot now !!)

If LNER provide free Alcohol surely Abellio will follow suit ( or perhaps Advocaat only )
 

sprinterguy

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The GWR 1st Class Seats are the best out there in my view so that's a bonus. In my view the carriages should retain the GWR Livery as a sign of where they came from. Indeed why not introduce a direct service from Edinburgh to Cardiff ? (I really have lost the plot now !!)
Scotrail are very keen to promote their "new" inter-city trains with a dedicated livery, understandably. The coaches are being chopped about to accommodate powered doors so retaining the existing livery wouldn't really be an option anyway. Though there might be some stock running around in GWR green in the short term if and when Scotrail introduce unrefurbished slam-door sets to service as a temporary measure.
If LNER provide free Alcohol surely Abellio will follow suit ( or perhaps Advocaat only )
Abellio's alcohol policy will be their own; just because one operator does one thing doesn't mean they have to follow suit.
 

northernbelle

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In a way, I'm surprised the economics of converting 22 HST sets for Scotrail added up. On GWR's West of England route, HST rebuilds were considered and ruled out with new Class 802s proving a better investment for a longer period of time.

Although it couldn't have been foreseen, the extended HST rebuild times at Wabtec do beg the question of whether a new fleet, built for a 30 year lifespan, would have been a better long term investment, although I appreciate that the franchising structure meant that bidders weren't necessary looking beyond the end of the current franchise.

In the meantime, Scotrail customers can look forward to an improvement in capacity and quality over their current Class 170s, which can only be a positive thing. I do however wonder whether a 'stopgap' train could have actually been a new train for the next 30 years, without the upheaval and cost of needing another fleet replacement programme in 7-10 years(?).

In my view, good for customers (depending on the quality of the refurbishment and how the reliability of the HSTs pans out), but not so sensible as a business decision.
 

Butts

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Scotrail are very keen to promote their "new" inter-city trains with a dedicated livery, understandably. The coaches are being chopped about to accommodate powered doors so retaining the existing livery wouldn't really be an option anyway. Though there might be some stock running around in GWR green in the short term if and when Scotrail introduce unrefurbished slam-door sets to service as a temporary measure.

Abellio's alcohol policy will be their own; just because one operator does one thing doesn't mean they have to follow suit.

Don't tell me it will be BA "rerun" . They claim to have surveyed passengers who said they would rather pay for Alcohol than get it for free !!
 

sprinterguy

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In a way, I'm surprised the economics of converting 22 HST sets for Scotrail added up. On GWR's West of England route, HST rebuilds were considered and ruled out with new Class 802s proving a better investment for a longer period of time.
It's only a minor point and I don't mean to detract from what is a thoughtful and well reasoned post, but it's 26 sets: 17 x 5-car and 9 x 4-car. For GWR, there will no doubt have been some benefit in terms of pathing, maintenance and traincrew competency in having one larger fleet of fairly homogenous class 800/802 trains for all inter-city services.
I do however wonder whether a 'stopgap' train could have actually been a new train for the next 30 years, without the upheaval and cost of needing another fleet replacement programme in 7-10 years(?).
Reportedly, they're on a 12 year lease, but your point still stands.
 

mpthomson

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Those were not statements from politicians, they were statements from conference attendees, i.e. ordinary people who will use the services. Also, the franchise requirements were broad enough for a wide range of trains to comply - refurbished 170s would have met the spec.

If you are attending a party conference of any colour or party then you aren't an 'ordinary person' at all, you're one of the more fervent party acolytes who will follow (mostly) the party line and either a local councillor type or 'amateur politician' who is active in the party at a grassroots level. 'Ordinary people' think party political conferences are desperately dull and I suspect you'd have to be a party member to gain entry to it anyway.
 
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JohnMcL7

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In a way, I'm surprised the economics of converting 22 HST sets for Scotrail added up. On GWR's West of England route, HST rebuilds were considered and ruled out with new Class 802s proving a better investment for a longer period of time.

How much of the GWR routes are electrified though? I'm assuming the 802's were chosen because they'd be able to partially run on electric power whereas in Scotland they're only be running on diesel power. I'm assuming there's not any realistic plans to electrify the Scottish lines over the next few decades? I don't know how the performance of the 802 on diesel power compares to the the shorter HST as the 802 has three 940bhp engines vs the two 2250 bhp engines of the class 43's, I realise it's not quite as simple as that though.

Although it couldn't have been foreseen, the extended HST rebuild times at Wabtec do beg the question of whether a new fleet, built for a 30 year lifespan, would have been a better long term investment, although I appreciate that the franchising structure meant that bidders weren't necessary looking beyond the end of the current franchise.

While the delays are not welcome at least they have the option of putting the older stock into service as a stopgap which wouldn't have been possible if they'd ordered new stock. Given both the new 385's and mk 5 sleepers have been delayed for differing reasons, there's no guarantee ordering new stock would have been quicker and I think it was mentioned on here that if they had wanted 802's they'd have been at the bottom of the pile.
 

Northhighland

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I've travelled on Cl170s on long distance routes within Scotland in the past (albeit not frequently) and I've never found underfloor engines to be an issue. On the 170s they're actually quite quiet.

I really don't believe that the refurbished HST units were ever the answer for long distance services in Scotland, certainly not at 40 years old. Could maybe have pursued a plan such as this about 10 years ago, but even then there may have been eyebrows raised.

If anything, a sensible option may have been something along the lines of the Trans-Pennine Push-Pull stock, which may seem a bit back to the future as far as long distance services in Scotland go, but at least it would have provided new stock with the ability to retain relatively sharp turn around times at terminal stations. Of course that would involve sourcing locos to work them, which I guess raises another question. When was the last time a new fleet of engines was ordered on behalf of a TOC anywhere? Or would an operator such as DRS have enough locos for ScotRail to hire in?

Otherwise the First group plan of running 2x170s on the long distance lines could been a temporary improvement until a longer term solution was sourced. At least the trains are relatively modern whilst running them typically in pairs means that overcrowding issues are overcome. This question of how Scottish long distance services are operated will raise it's head again soon enough, as I cannot see any more than about 6 or 7 successful years being had from the HST stock.

Problem with running two 170's or as they occasionally do a 170 and a 158 is that the catering is in one unit, not both, this doesn't solve the luggage storage issues or the cycle storage issues. They are noisy and draughty with an icy blast in every carriage at every station. I agree the 170 is one of the quieter underfloor engined units, however when compared to the LNER HST are noisy. 170's just aren't suitable for the route and were never designed for this type of use. Tourism is on the rise and we should be glad of that and encourage that. There is a huge scope for increased numbers on the HML, but only if the TOC can deliver the capacity and quality.

I am not wedded to HST's as a solution, the Trans Pennine solution would have been fine and maybe does offer a decent solution. However anything that perpetuates the 170's on these longer distance routes is unacceptable to the travelling public. It is clear when you look at the use the LNER service to Inverness gets, people plan their day around that train, people who know nothing about trains will plan their travel around getting the "London" train. If you are in Inverness at 8pm you will see the numbers getting off it. People clearly making a choice. There are many who just simply drive to the central belt, mainly due to the problems of overcrowding and quality of the trains.
 

JohnMcL7

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Is the Trans Pennine solution the 68, mk5's and DVT or is it a different one people are referring to?
 

Northhighland

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I agree - all it's done is kick the can down the road for rolling stock replacement, creating a problem that someone else will have to deal with, expensively, in future. I'm shocked at how much is being spent on life-expired stock with a dreadful reliability record. Yes, the refurbs look nice, but if they break down all the time - and there's every possibility they will, given yesterday's debacle - they're worse than useless.

I give it five years before they're falling to pieces.

Ok I get you dislike the HST solution. Perhaps though you need to think through the decisions facing the SG at that time. They were investing in new stock for the central belt, that would cost and have its share of teething troubles as is the case. HST would offer a tried and tested solution, popular with travelling public and at a much lower cost than new. given the railways record on delays when implementing new stock, coupled with the pressure on finances it is easy to see why this looked like a decent shout.

It hasn't worked quite like that, but hindsight is 2020 vision. Reliability of East Coast HST is pretty good, agree GWR ones is poorer but that is something that can be fixed. The staff that keep our existing fleet going are pretty good at it, am sure they will get on top of the HST. We are where we are, the time for this debate was before the decision was made, not really now.
 

RLBH

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Don't tell me it will be BA "rerun" . They claim to have surveyed passengers who said they would rather pay for Alcohol than get it for free !!
I'm sure people would love all sorts of freebies - but there's no reason why free booze should be provided to First Class passengers, especially since doing so will inevitably be reflected in the ticket price! More than that, given the Scottish Government's long-running efforts to cut down on drinking, I suspect that a very dim view would be taken of including complimentary alcohol in a First Class offering.

Realistically, just the refurbished stock and a modest level of complimentary refreshments will give the HSTs as good a First Class offering as you're likely to be able to justify on these routes.
 

Northhighland

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I'm sure people would love all sorts of freebies - but there's no reason why free booze should be provided to First Class passengers, especially since doing so will inevitably be reflected in the ticket price! More than that, given the Scottish Government's long-running efforts to cut down on drinking, I suspect that a very dim view would be taken of including complimentary alcohol in a First Class offering.

Realistically, just the refurbished stock and a modest level of complimentary refreshments will give the HSTs as good a First Class offering as you're likely to be able to justify on these routes.

Be amazed if complimentary alcohol was offered. Why should people who do not drink pay for those that do? Also given Scotlands drink problem this would be completely off message for Scottish government.
 

Journeyman

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Be amazed if complimentary alcohol was offered. Why should people who do not drink pay for those that do? Also given Scotlands drink problem this would be completely off message for Scottish government.

Presumably the trains would be subject to the "no booze after 9pm" rule anyway. The Sleepers are exempt, but charge for booze.
 

Butts

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Be amazed if complimentary alcohol was offered. Why should people who do not drink pay for those that do? Also given Scotlands drink problem this would be completely off message for Scottish government.

It's offered on LNER to Aberdeen and Inverness .

I thought Minimum Pricing as supposed to solve the drink problem ;)
 

sprinterguy

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Quite. I'd actually be less surprised if the trains were made completely dry.
The one photo I've seen of the buffet on yesterday's press run shows a selection of alcoholic drinks on sale, and there were reports of gin being available. I assume this is indicative of the offer that will be available on service trains.

Having checked the Scotrail franchise agreement:
On or before the 31st December 2018, the Franchisee shall ensure that catering facilities are available on all rolling stock deployed on Passenger Services on Inter-city Routes.

The Franchisee shall procure that an improved complimentary food and drink offer is offered to First Class customers (both on-train and at station-based ToGo Kiosk on production of their tickets).
So there will be some sort of complimentary offer available to first class passengers, although no suggestion of whether or not this would include alcoholic drinks.
 
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Butts

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The one photo I've seen of the buffet on yesterday's press run shows a selection of alcoholic drinks on sale, and there were reports of gin being available. I assume this is indicative of the offer that will be available on service trains.

Outrageous if true - mind you Cross Country don't do it either.

Is there news of proposed Cheap 1st Class Advances ?
 

RLBH

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The one photo I've seen of the buffet on yesterday's press run shows a selection of alcoholic drinks on sale, and there were reports of gin being available. I assume this is indicative of the offer that will be available on service trains.
Flipping heck the shadow of John Knox is never far away.
For the record, such a thing would be excessively puritanical, and I'd roll back the 9pm ban if I was in charge. But I'm not, and the Scottish political landscape would suggest that making alcohol less, rather than more, readily available is most likely.
 

Butts

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Might I humbly suggest that the contributions to this thread from a Welsh based Highlander desist forthwith.

Said individual seems to be obsessed with the provision of Free Alcohol to the exclusion of all the other far more important aspects concerning the introduction of this new service.

Poor chap should be directed to the nearest Asylum or failing that a suitable Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Oh.....wait a minute that's m.......;)
 

Northhighland

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It's offered on LNER to Aberdeen and Inverness .

I thought Minimum Pricing as supposed to solve the drink problem ;)

Take more than one policy to sort tout Scotlands drinking problem. LNER is not under SG control. Scotrail is.
 

fgwrich

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I believe the Gin element was just for the launch event though? Unless miniatures are going to be sold on board (hopefully with a few good Single Malts as well!).
 

Highlandspring

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I noticed there were also some souvenirs (teddies, insulated mugs etc..) in the glass section under the counter. It does look like the “Inter7City Cafe” is going to be a step up in terms of the catering and first class offering. Hopefully they’ll keep it up as the last time ScotRail - albeit under First - attempted to run a hot food buffet counter service on the ex Hull Trains class 170s it fell by the wayside within 6 months.
 

Journeyman

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Hopefully they’ll keep it up as the last time ScotRail - albeit under First - attempted to run a hot food buffet counter service on the ex Hull Trains class 170s it fell by the wayside within 6 months.

I think part of the problem there was only having three or four units with the buffet counters, which made it very limited what you can do with them - it's hard to ensure such a small fleet is on specific trains. British Rail had exactly the same problem with Griddle Cars when it introduced them, there were only tiny numbers of vehicles available, so guaranteeing they'd be on the trains they were advertised on was hard.

Catering doesn't make much money either, so there's reluctance to invest in it, but clearly they've had to here, as Transport Scotland insisted on it.
 

Mordac

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Flipping heck the shadow of John Knox is never far away.
I very much doubt John Knox would have supported any such thing. Scottish Presbyterianism was never affected by the temperance movement to the degree that English non-conformism was.
 

cf111

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I think that once the HSTs are in squadron service they will be a good solution, but the difficulty in reaching that point would seem to indicate an issue with the planning. Was the level of work required to get the trains refurbished underestimated perhaps?

I quite like the 170s but the lack of luggage space is a real issue and now the railway is busier they are not long enough.
 
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