Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

[whhistle]

Please recycle; people like you who do not do so are the ones that cause draconian enforcement policies to be imposed on the rest of us.

Why not?

It's okay, I do recycle - sorry, I should have explained more.
It was actually a dig at the fact I have to pay for a garden bin. I get those that don't have gardens don't use the service (so why should they pay right?), but I could say that about a recycling bin (for example, if I didn't recycle).

If a company declares profits in this country it pays tax on those profits in this country .... which affects all our lives.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.
How will that affect YOU, personally.
It won't.
Even if 20 companies all paid a lot more tax in this country, it won't bring down the price of petrol, or enable more policing, or give nurses a beter pay rise. None of that will happen, so unless something major is going to change, there's no point.
By something major, I mean "if a company operates in this country, they pay the current VAT rate in tax per year on the profits they've made." Want to get creative with accounting? Close those loops and threaten the companies who exploit them with closure.

 

[jopsuk]

Absolutely. Confuses the one-off 'capital' input to make the train with the continuing co2 emissions produced over its lifetime. Of course some stupid things have been done, like draining peat bogs, but that's in the past. Fortunately in Scotland the vast majority of our electricity comes from wind and water.

it's one of the most ridiculous things about fossil fuel advocates- they always seem to demand that less polluting alternatives account for the emissions and energy of their production, transmission and waste disposal, whilst only ever accounting for emissions at point of use of their preferred option, as if a diesel engine can spring into existence from nothing, and that the fuel just magically appears in the tank.

 

[Northhighland]

Absolutely. Confuses the one-off 'capital' input to make the train with the continuing co2 emissions produced over its lifetime. Of course some stupid things have been done, like draining peat bogs, but that's in the past. Fortunately in Scotland the vast majority of our electricity comes from wind and water.

Backed up by the Nuclear power plants.

 

[route:oxford]

By something major, I mean "if a company operates in this country, they pay the current VAT rate in tax per year on the profits they've made." Want to get creative with accounting? Close those loops and threaten the companies who exploit them with closure.

Oh goodness. You think companies pay VAT on profits...

VAT is a sales tax that's collected at point of sale on behalf of HMRC. Not forgetting that VAT sits at 4 different rates. 20%, 5%, 0% & Exempt.

So when you go into Poundland, and buy a bag of sweeties. You are really paying Poundland 83p and HMRC 17p

Then there is the whole input-output VAT element, but that's far too complicated for here.

Companies pay corporation tax on profits.

If you really want to start sorting out the loopholes, work on the little things like create an irrecoverable 19% tax on intra or linked company licensing and a maximum inter or linked company interest rate of base rate.

 

[keith1879]

It's okay, I do recycle - sorry, I should have explained more.
It was actually a dig at the fact I have to pay for a garden bin. I get those that don't have gardens don't use the service (so why should they pay right?), but I could say that about a recycling bin (for example, if I didn't recycle).




Sorry, I should have been more specific.
How will that affect YOU, personally.
It won't.
Even if 20 companies all paid a lot more tax in this country, it won't bring down the price of petrol, or enable more policing, or give nurses a beter pay rise. None of that will happen, so unless something major is going to change, there's no point.
By something major, I mean "if a company operates in this country, they pay the current VAT rate in tax per year on the profits they've made." Want to get creative with accounting? Close those loops and threaten the companies who exploit them with closure.

I can't help feeling that this is an argument of despair. You're right up to a point - in the sense that an extra £x million in tax is not visible as a benefit to us - but there is a quantum effect. Take your argument to its illogical conclusion and you might as well say that if nobody paid any tax it would make no difference - which is clearly not correct.

It must be better for the UK for companies to employ people here and pay tax to the UK government - just because we can't see the benefit from any one (or ten or one hundred) doesn't change that. But in any case I see that you are referring to the concept of paying VAT on profits ....which does rather undermine your argument to be honest.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Sorry, I should have been more specific.
How will that affect YOU, personally.
It won't.
Even if 20 companies all paid a lot more tax in this country, it won't bring down the price of petrol, or enable more policing, or give nurses a beter pay rise. None of that will happen, so unless something major is going to change, there's no point.
By something major, I mean "if a company operates in this country, they pay the current VAT rate in tax per year on the profits they've made." Want to get creative with accounting? Close those loops and threaten the companies who exploit them with closure.

Oh please.

If a company the size of Vodafone or Amazon pays their share of corporation tax you can bet that it will have an impact on people's lives. The money stays in the UK economy. That affects GDP.

The money goes to the exchequer. That will impact on either government spending or will reduce borrowing.

That again has a long term affect on the country as a whole.

You may think "how does that affect me directly?". How about this. It may mean that the grant given by central government to councils stops getting cut. That has a direct impact on local government services. So for example, that road nearby with all the potholes and broken street lights may get resurfaced and the street lights may get repaired. This makes that road safer to pedestrians, reduces crime and means less wear and tear on cars, also a safer road, because traffic isn't weaving to avoid potholes. So yes. There is a direct impact.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

If anyone would like to discuss anything else, please create a new thread (or use an existing one) in the appropriate forum section.

 

[Doomotron]

Why didn't they just get 442s?

 

[RLBH]

Why didn't they just get 442s?

Because if they laid third rail over the Highland Main Line, the buffet car would just need a big fishing net to serve freshly-roasted mutton and venison.

 

[jopsuk]

Why didn't they just get 442s?

Because they wanted 26 sets.

 

[Aictos]

68 hauled Mk5s & Mk5 DVT especially as 68s are already in use in Scotland as could have been a option but for better or worse the HSTs were chosen now as to the HSTs they will see out their retirement in Scotland until they get replaced in year dot.

 

[Journeyman]

Why didn't they just get 442s?

Haha, I was very tempted to mention that myself! There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when the first 442 is scrapped.

 

[Bikeman78]

Your argument might carry slightly more weight, if they actually y'know... worked and were comfortable. Refurbishment is way behind schedule and we will be rolling round in unrefurbished slam door stock for the foreseeable. Nor are the MK3's particularly comfortable or pleasant places to be and that has been the case for at least a decade.

That is before we get to the fact your analogy is flawed as the role and life expectancy, structure and typical materials of a home is different to rolling stock are wholly different.

The whole thing makes Scotrail look a laughing stock.

The 385s haven't covered themselves with glory either. Here's an interesting thought, the 314s that the people on the Gourock line moan about so much are actually more reliable than GWR HSTs!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yup - they're now extremely late, so all the arguments about whether they're better than 170s are a bit irrelevant - at least the 170s are actually here.

Not the first project to got pear shaped. The four class 170s that moved from Scotrail to Southern didn't carry any passengers for a year. By contrast, those that went to Northern started quite quickly. Yes I know the Southern units needed different couplings but that doesn't take a year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion, the Mk3 coach is a fantastic way to travel - nothing that's been built since compares

I'm not sure I agree. The Class 800 has an utterly terrible interior, but the physical train is vastly superior to the Mk3 both in terms of ride quality and noise. The interior is of course really very easy to fix. Rip the seats out, put some decent ones in (and luggage racks on each of the blank wall bits by the doors) - done. Actually, you could get away with just replacing the cushions - a seat frame is a seat frame, pretty much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Xenophobia alert.

It is not xenophobic to suggest that it is preferred for UK public subsidy to go to a UK owned company.

 

[Class37.4]

Not the first project to got pear shaped. The four class 170s that moved from Scotrail to Southern didn't carry any passengers for a year. By contrast, those that went to Northern started quite quickly. Yes I know the Southern units needed different couplings but that doesn't take a year.

Hardly a relevant comparison the Southern 170’s needed significant mods, while northern is usual gorified lick of paint and re trim the seats.

But the track record of significant mods to older rolling is one of significant delays, did the bid team adequately consider this?

 

[JohnMcL7]

I noticed the Scotrail liveried 43's are gone from the Inverness depot and there's a pair now with a plain navy livery that has the city names and 'A New Era', is that a stopgap livery until they are properly done? It also looked like there were another pair with coaches in the same livery going onto one of the platforms.

People keep talking about 68's with mk5A's as an option but surely there's nowhere near enough 68's for that?

 

[mullac30]

I noticed the Scotrail liveried 43's are gone from the Inverness depot and there's a pair now with a plain navy livery that has the city names and 'A New Era', is that a stopgap livery until they are properly done? It also looked like there were another pair with coaches in the same livery going onto one of the platforms.

People keep talking about 68's with mk5A's as an option but surely there's nowhere near enough 68's for that?

The 'A new era' livery was only put on the first delivery from GWR as a promotion for the new service. If Mk5As were an option, I'd presume that they would be simultaneously ordered with brand new locomotives, either more examples of the yet to be announced mixed traffic locos that DRS are getting, or Class 93's.

 

[Aictos]

People keep talking about 68's with mk5A's as an option but surely there's nowhere near enough 68's for that?

Simple solution and that's just build more of the damn things as it can't be beyond the wit of man to do it.

 

[TRAX]

No. A 40-year old train entering service is never the right choice.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Simple solution and that's just build more of the damn things as it can't be beyond the wit of man to do it.

I thought they can't build more 68's in the current spec as they're only compliant to the IIIa standard and not the current emissions standard? Even that aside getting 26 of them built (assuming they'd run a single locomotive per set) along with a suitable number of mk 5A's in just over a year seems unlikely particularly looking at the mk5A coaches for the TpE order.

 

[deltic08]

It was a good idea as a stop gap to electrification in the next 15-20 years as more diesels would not be needed after that.

New diesels now would put back electrification 40 years until they are nearly life expired.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[sprinterguy]

New diesels now would put back electrification 40 years until they are nearly life expired.

Not necessarily if a clause is provided in the franchise and lease agreements that the diesel locos can be swapped for suitable electrics post electrification, as per the TPE franchise where class 88s are specified.

 

[Photohunter71]

Why on earth they didn't factor in that they would have corrosion issues (being a 1970's build should have been a dead giveaway) and to remedy the problem would incurr cost and time? Simple to have as pointed out in a similar thread, requested Mk V's and 68's or a suitable locomotive. I suspect this may well happen yet.

 

[superkev]

Surely it's a matter of cost over however long there predicted to last.
New coaches presumably cost a lot more even after corrosion repairs are factored in.
The Mk3 was a very efficient design and considerably lighter than the later Mk4. Not sure about the new mk5s though.
K

 

[Mordac]

How about using Mk4s with class 67s?

 

[gsnedders]

How about using Mk4s with class 67s?

Not available yet, yet alone for the original introduction schedule. Also can't use HST speed differentials, which would hurt badly.

 

[Southsider]

How about using Mk4s with class 67s?

How about this, how about that .....
I'm sure the gravity of the situation is not lost on Scotrail who will have investigated every possible alternative in the search for a solution. Their recent track record is good (e.g. introducing 365s); I think we armchair experts should sit back and watch them get on with it.

 

[Mordac]

Not available yet, yet alone for the original introduction schedule. Also can't use HST speed differentials, which would hurt badly.

Aye, I should have been clearer, I didn't mean for the original decision, nor for now, but in case the HSTs aren't ready by the 2020 deadline.