Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

[Northhighland]

The public will decide, it's wrong to flat out claim that they will be appreciated at this point. In fact, given the big press launch is currently underway and isn't going well i'd expect the public to become more sceptical.

The travelling public of which I am one are sick to the back teeth of the current service. The trains are simply too small for the route.

They have inadequate luggage storage for the number of passengers as well. Totally unsuitable. So anything that offers a seat will be welcomed.

 

[reddragon]

Funny, the 800 discussion thread is all about how bad the 800s are and that everyone wants to keep the HSTs!

800s are slow on diesel & don't do hills. Opinions are split on which are best, but generally HSTs win in preferences.

Think of it a different way. 10 years of 40 year old HSTs give you a 2nd chance to get the Scottish Main lines wired up whereas new trains with a 40 year life push that option into the long grass.

 

[Northhighland]

To the posters pointing out the obvious I agree it is not as big a step forward as the franchises getting new stock.

Ideally we would be seeing new stock on these routes as well. Not impressed with some of the suggestions for that new stock. DMU with underfloor engines gets really wearing after 3 hours.

HST gives a bit breathing space until a suitable replacement is found. Assuming Wabtec are finished by 2030!

 

[Journeyman]

DMU with underfloor engines gets really wearing after 3 hours.

The overwhelming majority of people neither notice nor care.

 

[Darandio]

The travelling public of which I am one are sick to the back teeth of the current service. The trains are simply too small for the route.

They have inadequate luggage storage for the number of passengers as well. Totally unsuitable. So anything that offers a seat will be welcomed.

Correct, you are one, just one. The proof will be down the line, if these things end up unreliable then nobody will care that there had been a better chance of a seat. People are also swayed by the media, the first headline today is already up on the Scotsman.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...eed-train-breaks-down-on-first-trip-1-4813297

ScotRail’s new high-speed train breaks down on first trip

ScotRail’s new high-speed train broke down during its first service with passengers.

The train left Aberdeen at 12.55pm today after being hailed by the company as “an important milestone in its plan to build the best railway Scotland has ever had.”

But the £2m train, which offers passengers more seats, more luggage space and more plug sockets broke down near the town of Ladybank in Fife.

Passengers said the service ground to a halt for five to 10 minutes.



A ScotRail spokesperson said: “We experienced a short delay as a result of a technical issue, but the train was on the move again quickly.”

 

[yorksrob]

The overwhelming majority of people neither notice nor care.

They will do if they're stood up for three hours.

 

[Mikey C]

a) It's nor fair, we in Scotland are being palmed off with 40 year old trains while down in England they're spending billions on new IEPs
or
b) It's not fair, we in England are getting horrible new trains while in Scotland they get the comfort of an HST

 

[chubs]

You don't go and replace your house every few years because it's old - you upgrade and replace parts (e.g. furnishings, paintwork and so on)… this isn't necessarily any different.

You really cant compare a train to a house. The analogy doesn't work at all.

As for the original question No, they weren't. They're life expired old junk and passengers shouldn't have to put up with them, even with an extensive refurb.

 

[snookertam]

I've travelled on Cl170s on long distance routes within Scotland in the past (albeit not frequently) and I've never found underfloor engines to be an issue. On the 170s they're actually quite quiet.

I really don't believe that the refurbished HST units were ever the answer for long distance services in Scotland, certainly not at 40 years old. Could maybe have pursued a plan such as this about 10 years ago, but even then there may have been eyebrows raised.

If anything, a sensible option may have been something along the lines of the Trans-Pennine Push-Pull stock, which may seem a bit back to the future as far as long distance services in Scotland go, but at least it would have provided new stock with the ability to retain relatively sharp turn around times at terminal stations. Of course that would involve sourcing locos to work them, which I guess raises another question. When was the last time a new fleet of engines was ordered on behalf of a TOC anywhere? Or would an operator such as DRS have enough locos for ScotRail to hire in?

Otherwise the First group plan of running 2x170s on the long distance lines could been a temporary improvement until a longer term solution was sourced. At least the trains are relatively modern whilst running them typically in pairs means that overcrowding issues are overcome. This question of how Scottish long distance services are operated will raise it's head again soon enough, as I cannot see any more than about 6 or 7 successful years being had from the HST stock.

 

[keith1879]

You really cant compare a train to a house. The analogy doesn't work at all.

As for the original question No, they weren't. They're life expired old junk and passengers shouldn't have to put up with them, even with an extensive refurb.

If they perform like old junk then this will be seen in 12 - 18 months time as a prescient and intelligent post. If they prove to be reliable and deliver a comfortable and efficient service then even the poster will have forgotten putting it here. The interiors look good to me (hugely superior to how they were originally built) - judge them by how they deliver - not on personal prejudice.

 

[Basher]

In my opinion, the Mk3 coach is a fantastic way to travel - nothing that's been built since compares. Agreed that it's less than ideal that most of the coaches will be temporarily slam doors & minus CET tanks, but that's mainly Wabtec's fault.

The media hacks can write whatever lazy, cheap headlines about '40 year old trains' they like, but those of us who will actually travel on & work these trains know better.

Personally, I'd rather travel in an HST/Mk3 combo, as opposed to a modern DMU...this argument has already been done to death, so can we just accept that HST is here to stay for now.

Personally, I think the public will far prefer them to the current rolling stock..

Give me an HST any day. I always try to schedule a journey where an HST is scheduled. The new rolling stock are not a touch on a mk 3.

 

[squizzler]

Unsurprisingly, the Scottish Daily Express is reported by the BBC to have a similar headline… the fact is, he's probably right.

Most people just want something that is comfortable and works. You don't go and replace your house every few years because it's old - you upgrade and replace parts (e.g. furnishings, paintwork and so on)… this isn't necessarily any different.

That’s great but I presume your house has fewer miles on the clock than your average HST?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s great but I presume your house has fewer miles on the clock than your average HST?

It doesn't matter how many miles it has on it.

The reason why we don't knock down (UK style brick) houses and rebuild is because they are really expensive, so near enough any repair, even major structural works like underpinning as well as extensions, is economically viable, and it's almost never best to knock down and start again. (In the US where houses are made of wood and don't last as long as well as being cheaper, knock down and rebuild is correspondingly more common).

A train is worth a similar amount of money to a house. This being the case, the viability of repair and refurbishment is similarly high.

You can keep any car going as long as you like (look at the care lavished on many classics) - it's just that cars are relatively cheap, so the repairs quickly become uneconomic unless you're repairing for another reason - the love of a classic vehicle. It's said that most of the Land Rovers ever built are still on the road - that is because (a) they are premium vehicles so more expensive repairs are viable than to an old Corsa or similar, and (b) they are cherished.

On the wider point, though, 100mph DMUs aren't exactly hard to come by - there were several new options out there as well as the likes of Class 175s shortly becoming available (though perhaps Northern would be best placed to take on those so they can scrap some 15x). 180s are rubbish, but with a decent refurb the 175s seem rather more reliable. I'm unconvinced that 80x are the solution for lines that are very unlikely to be wired in the near future; their diesel capability is really more of a "last few miles" thing.

 

[Northhighland]

a) It's nor fair, we in Scotland are being palmed off with 40 year old trains while down in England they're spending billions on new IEPs
or
b) It's not fair, we in England are getting horrible new trains while in Scotland they get the comfort of an HST

In Scotland our politicians chose contracts that delivered new rolling stock in the central belt and 40 year old trains for the North. Nothing to do with England a strategy devised 100% in Scotland.

 

[mde]

That’s great but I presume your house has fewer miles on the clock than your average HST?

You'd like to think so, but no - it was built before WW2

The fact the HST is old isn't necessarily brilliant; but, it's tried and tested technology - if they we're to introduce another more traditional MU up there it'd probably see the same complaints as the 170. If the refurb has been done correctly it should have ironed out a lot of the implied flaws in the fleet (although, there are reports that the ride quality wasn't so good in places - one to watch).

It's perhaps a case of be careful what you wish for - they could have went for IEPs which aren't exactly off to a good start.

 

[alangla]

Personally I reckon they're a mistake, but here's pros & cons as I see it:
Pros:
Quiet
Quick up the hills
Bigger than a 3 car 170
More first class
Better catering
Decent refurb should create a nice internal ambience

Cons:
Not as big as 2x170s
Fixed formation, can't be doubled up or have a 158 tagged on the back on busy runs
Horrifically thirsty in terms of litres/seat km, oil prices appear to be rising
Scotrail first outside the E&G appears to mainly carry fresh air, though a first advance product might fix that
Previous attempts at better catering have failed (Hull 170s, XC offering nothing beyond Edinburgh)
Question mark over reliability on stop/start jobs

My ideal solution would probably have been a 4 car 802 type unit, doubled up where necessary & able to use the (extending) OHLE

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Has anyone mentioned that

- No-one really cares what newspapers say anymore
- No-one really cares what is said at the SNP conference.

The vast majority of the travelling public will make their own judgements when the trains arrive.
The vast majority of the travelling public don't know anything about trains or care where they come from - they just want a train, on time with comfortable, plentiful seating.

I'm sure most people on this forum wouldn't particularly care if their next flight was booked for a Boeing 787 or 767 or whether their next bus was a new or old design.

 

[jopsuk]

It's almost certain that Abellio, when preparing their bid, will have spoken at length to Hitachi about whether they were able to provide a suitable train for the Intercity requirements, at a suitable price, within the timescales required. This could have been an AT300 (Class 802 or similar), or indeed (given that it only needs a 100mph unit) some form of AT200, in bi-mode form with end doors. These are essentially "modular" designs afterall.

 

[haggishunter]

The overwhelming majority of people neither notice nor care.

So why do people go out of their way to use the LNER service on the Highland Mainline?

I'm not the only person I know who'd rather use the WHL with the 156s than the 170s on the HML. A 3 car turbostar was also definitely not an upgrade on a 4 car 158, where you had 4 toilets vs 2, more luggage space, proper vestibules to isolate the passenger cabin from the weather instead of opening the sides of it to a Highland winter. They are maxed out on the climbs, noisy, vibrating, rattling and slow.

Outwith bad or cold weather their not as bad on the Inverness to Aberdeen line, but I'd say the Inverness based 158s are still better, not least they have far more functional airline seatback tables and despite the 170s having decent windows I've noticed mobile data works significantly better on 158s than 170s.

The HSTs will be a step change in capacity and quality / comfort of the passenger cabin, I really can't see any rational argument against that. The 170s were never suitable for the HML and as usage has grown they have become ever less so, but I think it's almost certain that though there has been growth on the HML the poor offering has been curtailing it and there is (possibly significant) latent growth just waiting to be tapped into.

 

[tbtc]

HST gives a bit breathing space until a suitable replacement is found

Agreed - if they can sweat another decade out of the HSTs then I think we'll be in a stronger position to take a long term decision about the future needs of the routes served - at the moment I can understand reluctance to try bi-mode or battery/hydrogen trains - if the idea is to let other bits of the UK be the guinea pigs so that Scotland can take a better informed decision in the 2020s then I can understand that argument.

It just seems a wasted opportunity in the short/medium term (but will allow some enthusiasts a last hurrah on HSTs).

The overwhelming majority of people neither notice nor care.

Agreed - people notice the length of train/ the number of seats/ the journey time - I'm struggling to remember ever having had a conversation with a non-enthusiast about the noise of underfloor engines.

In Scotland our politicians chose contracts that delivered new rolling stock in the central belt and 40 year old trains for the North. Nothing to do with England a strategy devised 100% in Scotland.

True.

At least the HSTs for Aberdeen/ Inverness are younger than the 73s hauling the Sleeper to those cities...

The fact the HST is old isn't necessarily brilliant; but, it's tried and tested technology

Tries and tested, sure, but it's often easier to introduce brand new trains than to try to upgrade existing ones - given the delays in refurbishing the HSTs to modern accessibility standards (for the sake of ten years of additional service?), it's not a one way bet - my electrical goods are "tried and trusted" but when they break it might be easier/ cheaper to just buy new ones than try to repair them.

So why do people go out of their way to use the LNER service on the Highland Mainline?

Because they run at convenient times - 07:55 southbound in the morning then 16:35 back is pretty well timed for people in the Highlands wanting a day in Edinburgh.

Plus they are eight coach trains, so more chance of a seat.

If the 07:55 was an eight coach Turbostar (and the previous train was a three coach HST) then I doubt many people would switch.

I say this having lived in Fife, where some people will make a bee-line for the HSTs (instead of the Sprinters/ Turbostars), but anecdotally it seems to be more about basing journeys around the longer trains with more seats than the two/three coach ones (than any preference about where the engines are on the train).

 

[Stoney1979]

Terrible train, the 170, fall off the rails all the time....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45812024

The goose is good for the gander.

 

[Stoney1979]

Has anyone mentioned that

- No-one really cares what newspapers say anymore
- No-one really cares what is said at the SNP conference.

The vast majority of the travelling public will make their own judgements when the trains arrive.
The vast majority of the travelling public don't know anything about trains or care where they come from - they just want a train, on time with comfortable, plentiful seating.

I'm sure most people on this forum wouldn't particularly care if their next flight was booked for a Boeing 787 or 767 or whether their next bus was a new or old design.

Yes they have mentioned these things, couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, such logic has no effect with some - which is why this new thread had been set up and I am briefly look at it before departing.

 

[krus_aragon]

On the wider point, though, 100mph DMUs aren't exactly hard to come by - there were several new options out there as well as the likes of Class 175s shortly becoming available (though perhaps Northern would be best placed to take on those so they can scrap some 15x). 180s are rubbish, but with a decent refurb the 175s seem rather more reliable.

Unfortunately, without a time machine, Abellio wouldn't have known that the 175s were going to be released when they took on the franchise. Before the timetable slipped, the HSTs were due to be introduced in May of this year, at which point we still didn't know the 175s would be going off lease (and even then, it'll only happen from 2021 onwards).

 

[mde]

Tries and tested, sure, but it's often easier to introduce brand new trains than to try to upgrade existing ones - given the delays in refurbishing the HSTs to modern accessibility standards (for the sake of ten years of additional service?), it's not a one way bet - my electrical goods are "tried and trusted" but when they break it might be easier/ cheaper to just buy new ones than try to repair them.

This is a fair point. However, price is probably an issue - the 12 year leases on the HST + carriages were likely to be considerably cheaper than brand new procurement, otherwise, you could assume that they would have perhaps went down the Greater Anglia route of going to Stadler, or, going with a Hitachi option (although, it's doubtful Hitachi would have had near-term capacity given IEP/385).

Without costings it's hard to say why they specifically decided to go with this over brand new stock. At least it's not a Alstom Coradia…

 

[Journeyman]

So why do people go out of their way to use the LNER service on the Highland Mainline?

I'd dare to suggest that it being an HST is somewhat secondary to a range of other factors, such as good first class seating, significantly higher capacity and better catering, none of which are exclusive to HSTs and can be provided in a very wide range of rolling stock.

 

[Journeyman]

I really don't believe that the refurbished HST units were ever the answer for long distance services in Scotland, certainly not at 40 years old. Could maybe have pursued a plan such as this about 10 years ago, but even then there may have been eyebrows raised.

This question of how Scottish long distance services are operated will raise it's head again soon enough, as I cannot see any more than about 6 or 7 successful years being had from the HST stock.

I agree - all it's done is kick the can down the road for rolling stock replacement, creating a problem that someone else will have to deal with, expensively, in future. I'm shocked at how much is being spent on life-expired stock with a dreadful reliability record. Yes, the refurbs look nice, but if they break down all the time - and there's every possibility they will, given yesterday's debacle - they're worse than useless.

I give it five years before they're falling to pieces.

 

[Butts]

I'd dare to suggest that it being an HST is somewhat secondary to a range of other factors, such as good first class seating, significantly higher capacity and better catering, none of which are exclusive to HSTs and can be provided in a very wide range of rolling stock.

If they are planning to run 5 Car HST's will one of them be exclusively 1st Class with the same level of service as Virgin West Coast and LNER - and the same seats ?

 

[Highlandspring]

If they are planning to run 5 Car HST's will one of them be exclusively 1st Class with the same level of service as Virgin West Coast and LNER - and the same seats ?

I've seen some ridiculous posts before on this forum but I think this one takes the biscuit.

 

[sprinterguy]

If they are planning to run 5 Car HST's will one of them be exclusively 1st Class with the same level of service as Virgin West Coast and LNER - and the same seats ?

One carriage of first class, with an at-seat meal service and retaining the same seats they were fitted with by GWR (Which are different to the Primarius ones fitted to LNER trains).

I believe there will be alcoholic drinks, but I'm afraid I'm unable to confirm whether they will be complimentary.

 

[Butts]

I've seen some ridiculous posts before on this forum but I think this one takes the biscuit.

Why is it so ridiculous to ask such a question ? If they are using the same trains as LNER surely you would expect the same level of service or cheaper fares.

When I lived in Falkirk I used to enjoy my day's out on VT both East and West Coast in 1st Class with very reasonable fares and provisions. (particularly free Scotch)