Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[woodhouse122]

They'll still make a profit on it, markup on coffee and (especially) tea is huge

agreed, Transpenine express charge £2.50 for a cup of galaxy hot chocolate using sachets that cost 40p from tesco

 

[krus_aragon]

They'll still make a profit on it, markup on coffee and (especially) tea is huge

It's such a shame that even with that markup, they can't serve (what I'd consider to be) good tea.

Edit: Do any proposed 230 layouts have dedicated space for a trolley, as some units have in the past?

 

[trash80]

agreed, Transpenine express charge £2.50 for a cup of galaxy hot chocolate using sachets that cost 40p from tesco

My wife worked in a cafe for a time, we worked out that the tea (which cost the punter 1.80) was 0.7p for the bag, obviously you have to add some cost for boiling the water and the paper cup but i think you would still be in the black

 

[380101]

Note they haven't said about Barrhead services but could they be boosted to 3 car whilst still fitting into the bay platform at Barrhead?

Barrhead bay holds a 4 car 156 so a 3 car 230 would fit no bother. But its all pie in the sky stuff as I very much doubt ScotRail/Transport Scotland will even consider 230s of any type up here. The battery technology is interesting and I can see a future order of bi mode or even tri mode units to replace the 156 and 158 fleet in the nect 10 years.

 

[Highlandspring]

But its all pie in the sky stuff as I very much doubt ScotRail/Transport Scotland will even consider 230s of any type up here.

Why did TS arrange and pay for the Bo’ness demonstration then?

 

[gingertom]

Barrhead bay holds a 4 car 156 so a 3 car 230 would fit no bother. But its all pie in the sky stuff as I very much doubt ScotRail/Transport Scotland will even consider 230s of any type up here. The battery technology is interesting and I can see a future order of bi mode or even tri mode units to replace the 156 and 158 fleet in the nect 10 years.

We could do worse than keep a close eye on how Anglia's Flirts perform and whether they could fit in Scotrail's plans.

 

[380101]

Why did TS arrange and pay for the Bo’ness demonstration then?

Im guessing they are interested in the technology more than the actual unit. We've had our "fingers burned" so to speak with conversions/upgrades of 40 year old stock already with this new franchise so I really cant see any future franchise bidder going for these. The paying passengers are fed up as it is with the delays to our "new" stock so I cannot see them been keen on another type of 40yr old train conversion/upgrade however good the technology is.

 

[380101]

We could do worse than keep a close eye on how Anglia's Flirts perform and whether they could fit in Scotrail's plans.

Indeed. The Flirts are a great looking product and would be an ideal replacement for the 156 and 158 fleet. Given the increasing amount of fallen trees on lines I drive on recently I wouldn't fancy my chances in a converted undergound train hitting one. I also cant see any suitable routes they could operate on to replace 156 units unless there was a massive recast of the diagrams.

 

[Chris125]

Some lengthy onboard footage of 230002 at Bo'ness, thanks to ecksfilesbonyuk8

 

[Doomotron]

Indeed. The Flirts are a great looking product and would be an ideal replacement for the 156 and 158 fleet. Given the increasing amount of fallen trees on lines I drive on recently I wouldn't fancy my chances in a converted undergound train hitting one. I also cant see any suitable routes they could operate on to replace 156 units unless there was a massive recast of the diagrams.

Actually Vivarail uploaded to YouTube some of the crash tests and they're actually really good. Must be the aluminium bodyshell.

 

[samuelmorris]

Some lengthy onboard footage of 230002 at Bo'ness, thanks to ecksfilesbonyuk8

Good to hear that the traction controller racket does go away at speed. Acceleration looks surprisingly impressive. Presumably that's because there's no DC rail draw limit and no intermediate trailer vehicle?

 

[K.o.R]

What is it with new trains and awful door buzzers?

Desiros have the right balance.

 

[samuelmorris]

They're not PRM compliant. New ones are.

 

[K.o.R]

Sounds like a case of endlessly moving the goalposts.

 

[southern442]

They're not PRM compliant. New ones are.

Yeah, instead of trying to help people who are hard of hearing, they've decided to try and deafen everyone else to even out the playing field!

 

[DelW]

That's cutting it a bit fine, especially with the gradients on that line!

I agree that the numbers quoted are too tight for comfort, but gradients should matter less than for diesel units, part of the rationale is that battery units going downhill recoup a high proportion of the energy they used going uphill.

You still have to get the forklift there. So the Spare rafts may as well go on the same lorry that delivers the forklift. Unless they have also designed a forklift that can fit through the doors.

I very much doubt Vivarail would maintain and send out their own fleet of forklifts, they are very easy to hire in most locations (and a lot of JCB3-type machines have front forks as a standard option).

 

[A0wen]

agreed, Transpenine express charge £2.50 for a cup of galaxy hot chocolate using sachets that cost 40p from tesco

The railways have *always* profiteered from on-board catering. If you read Bernard Ingham's book, he recounts how Tony Benn as Energy Secretary used to carry his own mug and tea-bags and yet was charged 30p for a cup of hot water by a BR catering team. Benn was Energy Sec in the late 70s - which is about £ 1.70 today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railways have *always* profiteered from on-board catering. If you read Bernard Ingham's book, he recounts how Tony Benn as Energy Secretary used to carry his own mug and tea-bags and yet was charged 30p for a cup of hot water by a BR catering team. Benn was Energy Sec in the late 70s - which is about £ 1.70 today.

If the railways were "profiteering" from trolley services they would be all over the place. In actual fact they struggle to cover their costs; the situation differs rather from air travel where you have a load of crew who are required by law for safety but have no significant safety role for 90% of the flight, so the staff cost applicable to food and drink sales is effectively nil.

Hot water is a funny one - many places do seem to give it you for free, personally if I ran a cafe it would be charged at the price of the cheapest hot drink (probably tea) given that the cost of a tea bag is pennies. It's not like you don't have to pay for the staff, environment etc, and it's a lot less likely that someone will just have a quick swig (like they would cold tap water) in addition to another drink they are paying for. I certainly think it's out of order to go into a pub and just drink tap water unless you are having another paid for item e.g. food - that's not why it is provided free (usually as a licensing term, just like providing free toilet facilities) - it is provided for safety reasons because those also consuming alcoholic drinks may need it for their health.

 

[Journeyman]

If the railways were "profiteering" from trolley services they would be all over the place. In actual fact they struggle to cover their costs; the situation differs rather from air travel where you have a load of crew who are required by law for safety but have no significant safety role for 90% of the flight, so the staff cost applicable to food and drink sales is effectively nil.

Absolutely, most railway catering struggles to break even, and a lot of it probably runs at a loss, and is only provided as a franchise obligation. The choice of food available at station retail outlets has seen a lot of it off.

 

[notlob.divad]

I certainly think it's out of order to go into a pub and just drink tap water unless you are having another paid for item e.g. food - that's not why it is provided free (usually as a licensing term, just like providing free toilet facilities) - it is provided for safety reasons because those also consuming alcoholic drinks may need it for their health.

What if you are the designated driver?

 

[Southsider]

A lot of talk about catering on this thread. Are the 230s going to have a buffet car?

 

[pemma]

agreed, Transpenine express charge £2.50 for a cup of galaxy hot chocolate using sachets that cost 40p from tesco

Yet if they only sell an average of 5 per hour they wouldn't even cover the staffing cost, never mind the equipment cost as well.

 

[Clip]

A lot of talk about catering on this thread. Are the 230s going to have a buffet car?

See this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d78s-by-vivarail.103488/page-223#post-3675364

but ive not seen the mock up on the vivarail website

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if you are the designated driver?

Choose a soft drink, hot drink or alcohol free beer or buy some snacks. You are still enjoying the pub’s facilities and should still pay something towards their provision.

 

[Western Lord]

Given the increasing amount of fallen trees on lines I drive on recently I wouldn't fancy my chances in a converted undergound train hitting one.

Most of the "Underground" is actually above ground!

 

[bengley]

Good to hear that the traction controller racket does go away at speed. Acceleration looks surprisingly impressive. Presumably that's because there's no DC rail draw limit and no intermediate trailer vehicle?

I had a discussion with someone on youtube who insisted that the whine was the motors themselves. I was under the impression that Vivarail had reused the motors from the D stock - am I right?

 

[Journeyman]

I had a discussion with someone on youtube who insisted that the whine was the motors themselves. I was under the impression that Vivarail had reused the motors from the D stock - am I right?

I think they re-used the existing motors on 230 001 (the diesel prototype), but 230 002 (the battery prototype) and all production trains have new AC motors.

 

[bengley]

I think they re-used the existing motors on 230 001 (the diesel prototype), but 230 002 (the battery prototype) and all production trains have new AC motors.

The motors in the video above sound suspiciously like D78 motors still!

 

[samuelmorris]

They do but bear in mind that could be the noise of the existing gearing (note the similarity of sound for other re-tractioned old EMUs like 321s and 455s). I don't actually know how much kit has been replaced on the battery 230 though.

I had a discussion with someone on youtube who insisted that the whine was the motors themselves.

It could well be coming from there but it's caused by the electronic traction control replacing the existing mechanical setup the D78s had. It could be, if the motors haven't been replaced, that the noise will be nowhere near as bad on units with AC motors replacing the old ones. If the motors are new though, then it's likely to be an AC drive instead, and largely inexcusable :P

 

[gingertom]

They do but bear in mind that could be the noise of the existing gearing (note the similarity of sound for other re-tractioned old EMUs like 321s and 455s). I don't actually know how much kit has been replaced on the battery 230 though.


It could well be coming from there but it's caused by the electronic traction control replacing the existing mechanical setup the D78s had. It could be, if the motors haven't been replaced, that the noise will be nowhere near as bad on units with AC motors replacing the old ones. If the motors are new though, then it's likely to be an AC drive instead, and largely inexcusable :P

I spoke with their tekky guy during the layover and charging the batteries for the 3rd run. It's AC motors so they can use regenerative braking to recover energy during braking. Also the maintenance exam intervals with AC motors are much less frequent. Commutators and brushes on DC motors can and do cause build up of dust that can cause flashovers and other damage- best avoided.