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Why The Obsession With Electric cars?

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Tim R-T-C

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Fast charging is coming. Anyway if necessary behaviours may need some adjustment, humans are good at that, and have lots of ingenuity.

Fast charging exists, but will only work once a day at present on many cars as it heats the battery up too much. See the Nissan leaf. Rest of the charges have to be standard.

Human ingenuity is all well and good, but waiting 4 hours mid drive isn't likely to take off any time soon.

Eventually battery life will increase and charging speeds too. Exchangable batteries will make things much easier. But I imagine it will still be 5-10 years before it can compete with petrol cars.

I think we could see a return of Motorail, where your car charges while you are on the train.
 
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Groningen

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A story in our rightwing Telegraaf (the Netherlands). Tesla Model S (version P90D) has a price of 129.900 euro, but comes with a subsidy of 70.000 euro over 5 years. Yes the Netherlands is doing everything for a clean environment!
 

Harpers Tate

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Fast charging exists, but will only work once a day at present on many cars as it heats the battery up too much. See the Nissan leaf. ....
That issue is exclusive to the Leaf Mk2 at the moment, I believe. Nissan elected not to equip that car with any battery temperature management and onboard software limits sequential charging to preserve the (hot) battery. My car (a Hyundai) has active battery temperature management and can be rapid charged as many times as needed. And all current Teslas have the same. A correspondent on another site recently took his Hyundai Kona on a 800 mile journey in one day; he made two 1hr 15 minute stops for R&R&R (rest and refreshments and recharge). The point is - restricting rapid charging isn't a necessary or essential thing; it's just a corner Nissan elected to cut.
 

Shimbleshanks

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Don't forget that electric power is only cheaper than petrol/diesel because there is no excise duty and only a reduced rate of VAT on electricity. If the government ever cottons on to the idea of taxing electricity used for charging battery cars, it will be just as expensive for the consumer.
 

Harpers Tate

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It also wrecks the battery.
Maybe. My car has an 8-year 100k mile warranty on the battery pack, and nothing is specified in that about the number or proportion or frequency of rapid charges. And, since the difference is nothing more than a matter of scale - I've been rapid charging my Smartphone for several years and I haven't yet noticed any reduction in duration.
 

PeterC

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How many queues do you see at the pumps ? People queue because there is a chance that they will be next and that there is a minimal wait. If you had an electric car and saw an occupied charge point would you wait ? I doubt it and that's because you know the wait would be prohibitive.

You also see queues at the pumps because there are so many cars which require filling up. With a limited number of electric cars there is little chance of huge queues.

It's also a case of attitudes. Electric car owners know that range and charging is an issue so they plan accordingly. With petrol/diesel I don't have to plan. I rock up to the nearest petrol station and fill up.
With electric it is not just finding charging points but also of ensuring that you have the right accounts set up. At leat with petrol you don't need to worry if you have the correct app on your phone, you just pull out the credit card.
 

Groningen

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Today in the dutch newspaper Volkskrant. To stimulate electric driving there are a lof of financial benefits. But the Treasury receives less money (less diesel drivers) and than we are not talking about peanuts. The hole can reach each year 1 billion euro.
 

Basher

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Why would fuel cells be the answer? They rely on hydrogen which doesn't just flow from the ground. It has to be produced by electrolysing water (which is a pointless exercise as you'd be better off using the electricity directly with a battery), by reforming hydrocarbons (which leaves you with CO2 emissions) or as a by product of a chemical process. Faster fuelling apart there's really very little reason why you'd choose to go down the fuel cell route.
Mind you, one can. Toyota and Hyundai sell fuel cell vehicles which have decent range and performance albeit at a very high cost and with an almost complete lack of fuelling infrastructure.
My understanding of the fuel cell (i'm no expert ) is that a small electrical charge is passed through water which splits the water into its elements, hydrogen and oxygen. The gas is then burnt in the engine, it's clean too.
 

Domh245

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Huh?

The fuel cell takes hydrogen and (usually) oxygen, reacts them together and uses that reaction to generate an electric current. Splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen is electrolysis and is completely different. It's like trying to compare refining crude oil and a gasoline engine.
 

MotCO

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Newspapers today are questioning the range of electric cars stated by their manufacturers. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/c...s-far-electric-cars-REALLY-travel-charge.html

How far can you go in an electric car? New test reveals the REAL ranges of models on sale today with one falling 100 MILES SHORT of claims
  • What Car? has begun testing ranges of electric cars under normal driving
  • Aaim is to challenge claims made by manufacturer about how far you can travel before you need to plug an EV into the mains
  • Hyundai's Kona has the longest range - 259 miles, which is 33 short of claims
  • Tesla Model S 75D was 100 miles short of its claimed 304 range quoted online

How far can electric cars really travel between charges?

That's one of the most common questions asked of zero-emissions models, with motorists rightfully dubious of the figures manufacturers claim their vehicles can go before needing a fresh dose of electricity.

A new controlled test has revealed the true distances today's most popular EVs can cover - with some falling short of their claims by as much as 100 miles.

How far can electric cars really travel between charges?

That's one of the most common questions asked of zero-emissions models, with motorists rightfully dubious of the figures manufacturers claim their vehicles can go before needing a fresh dose of electricity.

A new controlled test has revealed the true distances today's most popular EVs can cover - with some falling short of their claims by as much as 100 miles.

In addition, it also tells potential buyers what to expect a full charge to cost and the efficiency of each car in miles per kWh.

The 12 cars already reported on are the first to be tested, with the magazine continuously updating the standings as more electric vehicles are tested in the future.

Currently topping the table is the new £35,656 Hyundai Kona Electric, with a range of 259 miles, closely followed by the £63,000 Jaguar I-Pace and £31,000 Kia e-Niro, both of which managed 253 miles – the equivalent of travelling from London to Snowdonia.
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All three provide more than adequate ranges, though fall some way short of what car makers would lead you to believe.

While the Kona, I-Pace and e-Niro have impressive ranges, they are all some way off the figures used by car makers to advertise them.

Respectively they fall short by 33 miles, 39 miles of 48 miles - and that's using the official claimed range produced in the latest WLTP test procedure.


How are the electric-car ranges tested?
At the start of the test the car's battery is fully depleted and then recharged via a smart charging cable with a built-in meter.

Driving measurements are taken at a test track so traffic conditions don't affect the result, with the car following a route that simulates a mix of town, A-road and motorway driving.

Testing is conducted with the lights on, climate control set to 22 degrees and when the ambient temperature is between 10 and 15 degrees.

Finally, the car is recharged using the smart cable so that the amount of energy expended can be measured and the Real Range extrapolated.

I-Pace SUV was closer to 250 miles rather than the 292 claim.

This is Money crunched the figures after the British manufacturer published information about a long-distance drive across Europe in the vehicle.

By it's own figures, we calculated that the range was 252 miles.

The £70,100 Tesla Model S 75D - the car with the fourth longest range between charges - has a real range of 204 miles, which is 100 miles shorter than Tesla advertises on its website, according to the old NEDC test cycle.

Arguably a more realistic range figure would be produced under the latest WLTP test standards, but Tesla is still knowingly telling potential customers that this particular car can cover 304 miles between charges.

What Car? editor Steve Huntingford said: 'Our true MPG test has always been the best way to cut through the official noise and see how economical a car will really be.

'But with the surge in interest in electric cars, now is the time for us to provide the same service to EV buyers.

'One of the few remaining concerns for people considering an EV is range anxiety – the fear that their battery will run flat and leave them stranded.

'Real range gives them the information they need to choose the right car for their needs.'

This could dampen enthusiasm for electric cars.
 

thejuggler

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No different to petrol cars. According to official figures for my car I should get almost 600miles to a tank. I can get 450 on a good run.
 

Bald Rick

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Don't forget that electric power is only cheaper than petrol/diesel because there is no excise duty and only a reduced rate of VAT on electricity. If the government ever cottons on to the idea of taxing electricity used for charging battery cars, it will be just as expensive for the consumer.

But, as electric cars are around 3 times more efficient than diesel cars in term sales of converting energy to motion, even if electricity and petrol /diesel was the same price per unit of energy, it would still be much cheaper to go electric.

Personally, I think the government will go down the route of usage / time based road user charging, as that would solve a few other issues too. It will be another 10 years though I guess.

Newspapers today are questioning the range of electric cars stated by their manufacturers. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/c...s-far-electric-cars-REALLY-travel-charge.html

This could dampen enthusiasm for electric cars.

Slight problem with this, it’s the Daily Mail.
 

Dent

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No different to petrol cars. According to official figures for my car I should get almost 600miles to a tank. I can get 450 on a good run.
The key difference being that petrol cars can be quickly refilled when needed, so unlike with electric cars range is not a critical issue.
 

Gostav

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Electric power road vehicle is never a new idea and serviced as well over 100 years, just they are not take power from battery, but even battery power bus and lorry also isn't a new idea.
45672334621_684e99ab4a_b.jpg
45621670482_4b5d741f3c_b.jpg

My photos
 
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Harpers Tate

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.....This could dampen enthusiasm for electric cars.
Yes, it could. But here is a question - asked in the full acknowledgement that any one person answering it may give a very different answer, but as regards a large proportion of car journeys and people - if we take my car which (according to the table) will go 117 miles (I'd agree with that figure as a minimum):
-- how many journeys start from home and don't get back there until a distance greater than this range has been covered? It's far greater than most commutes. It's far greater than most school runs. It's far greater than most of those two added together. It's far greater than most shopping trips. etc...etc.

The thing that often isn't initially acknowledged is that, because typically you would charge at home (overnight, say)
- that 117 miles (say) is always available every morning
- except on longer trips (again, acknowleding that any one person may well make these frequently) you never expend any time charging; it happens while you watch TV or sleep. So it's actually quicker than having to make a separate visit to a fuel station every 400-500 miles.
- the cost of fuel is unlikely, I think, to ever exceed your domestic power tariff; I don't imagine any government willingly trying to surcharge domestic charging vs. other domestic use. Roadside charges are, of course, a different matter. And if you have a solar array.......
 

whhistle

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Replacing a built in battery in a car is going to be an expensive business.
But that is only because of our limitations of thinking.
What if you had a modular box, which contained a battery, that could be hot swapped out when required.
The problem will be whether this will be automatic. If so, car shapes may have to be the same for some sort of automation to take place.

The other solution will be to have a "charging strip" on motorways (then A-roads, then B-roads) to allow batteries to charge on the go contactlessly. Think scaled up wireless mobile phone charging...

Expensive but that's the price of making it work.
 

PeterC

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But that is only because of our limitations of thinking.
What if you had a modular box, which contained a battery, that could be hot swapped out when required.
The problem will be whether this will be automatic. If so, car shapes may have to be the same for some sort of automation to take place.

The other solution will be to have a "charging strip" on motorways (then A-roads, then B-roads) to allow batteries to charge on the go contactlessly. Think scaled up wireless mobile phone charging...

Expensive but that's the price of making it work.
I agree that the battery should be a standard commodity and not customised to each vehicle. Manufacturers, however, seem to be taking the "razor blade option". Even so, with current technology, changing the battery pack is something that would need to be done in a workshop.
 

EM2

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Tim R-T-C

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Electric power road vehicle is never a new idea and serviced as well over 100 years, just they are not take power from battery, but even battery power bus and lorry also isn't a new idea.
45672334621_684e99ab4a_b.jpg
45621670482_4b5d741f3c_b.jpg

My photos

OT, but where is that second picture? Looks decrepid even for an old Soviet system
 

AndrewE

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OT, but where is that second picture? Looks decrepid even for an old Soviet system
I wondered if it might be somewhere remote in China. Is that a stone placed as a chock under the front wheel?
 

Gostav

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OT, but where is that second picture? Looks decrepid even for an old Soviet system
China is pretty modern these days in the cities. Chisinau has some similarly decrepit trolleybuses but they don't look like those.
It is a coal mine commuter trolley bus in Shan Dong, China. Until Spring 2017 when l visited this bus still in service.
 
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