EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

Evidence is after an event not before.

OK, let me amend the question.
What reasons do you have for your assertion?

 

[bnm]

As soon as some people here the word UKIP they call them racist fanatics

Not all of them are. Those that aren't are xenophobic zealots.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is what happens when you take to the electorate with a vague question requiring a complex answer. At the very least the referendum should have had additional options in the case of a leave vote, asking between a full no deal withdrawal, partial withdrawal or a Norwegian style deal. This would have forced a debate on the leave options and given those "Brexit means Brexit" mantra followers no place to hide, and forced them to go beyond empty jingoistic rhetoric.

We needed open and frank debate, we got playground shenanigans and name calling. May and her team felt they had to appease these people, and this bodged rush job of a deal is the result.

 

[Revilo]

We did have an open and frank debate in the last referendum. The Remain campaign, well-funded using taxpayers' money, put forward every scare story they could think of, but we still voted to leave even if it does have short-term negative economic effects..

The problem now is that we left negotiation to Remainiacs, whose aim (together with the EU's) was to get a terrible deal for the UK and then paint it as the fault of Brexit in principle, in the hope that we end up staying.

But if we end up staying as a result, we'll (a) lose the rebates (b) be stuck on a conveyor belt of greater harmony including an EU army (c) be tied to all the EU crises, Euro, poor youth employment etc

 

[AM9]

... But if we end up staying as a result, we'll (a) lose the rebates ...

Do you have evidence that if the UK withdraws its Article 50 submission, the rebate will be lost?

 

[EM2]

The problem now is that we left negotiation to Remainiacs

Davis was the UK's lead negotiator. He is a Leaver.
The Conservatives had the opportunity to vote in a Leaver as leader. They didn't.

 

[Bantamzen]

We did have an open and frank debate in the last referendum. The Remain campaign, well-funded using taxpayers' money, put forward every scare story they could think of, but we still voted to leave even if it does have short-term negative economic effects..

The problem now is that we left negotiation to Remainiacs, whose aim (together with the EU's) was to get a terrible deal for the UK and then paint it as the fault of Brexit in principle, in the hope that we end up staying.

But if we end up staying as a result, we'll (a) lose the rebates (b) be stuck on a conveyor belt of greater harmony including an EU army (c) be tied to all the EU crises, Euro, poor youth employment etc

I'm not interested in the empty rhetoric of either remain or leave. Neither side contributed anything to the debate except, well empty rhetoric. And I'm afraid your post follows in exactly the same vein, blame the other side, blah, blah, blah...

 

[SteveP29]

Why do the left usually have to take a lot of responsibility?

Don't you know, their liberal policies allow law and order to break down, teenage pregnancies to mushroom, taking away housing stock because we have to give them free houses, allowing immigration to run wild and taking away housing stock because, you know, we have to give all those muzzies free houses and also give both teenage mothers and immigrants loads and loads and loads of benefits and stuff.

 

[AlterEgo]

This carry-on is the best entertainment I've had in ages.

 

[pemma]

Don't you know, their liberal policies allow law and order to break down, teenage pregnancies to mushroom, taking away housing stock because we have to give them free houses, allowing immigration to run wild and taking away housing stock because, you know, we have to give all those muzzies free houses and also give both teenage mothers and immigrants loads and loads and loads of benefits and stuff.

You do realise the Tory's benefit reforms mean that if you are single, have saved up £16,000 for a deposit on a first house and are made redundant then you're ineligible for Universal Credit. However, if you own a house worth £1m, don't have much in savings and are repaying a £100,000 loan for an extension on your house, have a spouse who doesn't work and have children then your household can get a few hundred a week in Universal Credit if you are made redundant.

Also where are these 'free houses'?

 

[pemma]

Then there is the lie about a European army. It is proposed, not (even yet) for real and just as the UK managed to stay out of the Euro and Schengen, there would be no way that we could be forced to commit out forces to an EU chosen commander, elected or not, (even one that happened to be a UK citizen).

Regardless of that can anyone name one recent conflict where British army personnel have been involved and another European army haven't been on the same side? Our troops always seem to be on the front line with French troops even though there's no 'European army.' Maybe a 'European army' would mean Britain wouldn't need to send so many troops at our expense every time there's a conflict as other EU countries would have to do more.

 

[Muttley]

This is what happens when you take to the electorate with a vague question requiring a complex answer.

I disagree.
It'd be fairer to say this is what happens when you take to the electorate a 50/50 choice but do absolutely no planning for one of the outcomes.

Then once the result was in it should have been a cross party working group as opposed to split on party political terms.

 

[AM9]

I suppose we should have some sympathy for those leavers who bought the lie about how we could leave and everything would be fine. Now some of them can see it slipping away and their two years of gloating will be replaced by rants, embodying all the lies that they have been sold. They can't even drop the habit of puerile name calling, - on this page alone we've had "remainiacs", the tired old "remoaners" and of course the racist give-away "muzzies". Fortunately, there are some leaver posters in this thread that can forward an argument in a civil manner to further genuine discussion, but since the wheels started falling off the exit vehicle yesterday, the desperate rants have come back from the other end of the spectrum of coherent debate.

 

[pemma]

I disagree.
It'd be fairer to say this is what happens when you take to the electorate a 50/50 choice but do absolutely no planning for one of the outcomes.

Then once the result was in it should have been a cross party working group as opposed to split on party political terms.

There were so many options which weren't directly on the ballot paper. Voting remain wasn't to keep things as they are, it was to accept the reforms David Cameron had got from the EU and to be an EU member on those terms - what if you didn't agree with those reforms? Voting leave was just to leave the EU what if you wanted to leave but thought a Norway style deal was worse than remaining?

 

[Muttley]

There were so many options which weren't directly on the ballot paper. Voting remain wasn't to keep things as they are, it was to accept the reforms David Cameron had got from the EU and to be an EU member on those terms - what if you didn't agree with those reforms? Voting leave was just to leave the EU what if you wanted to leave but thought a Norway style deal was worse than remaining?

The same way we manage at a GE. I can't see every single Con/Lab voter agreeing with every single word of the respective manifesto, but people manage to make a choice.

 

[nlogax]

Another day of popcorn politics. There's likely to be a confidence vote with at least 48 letters having been received. Today, maybe..?

And Gove isn't quitting.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The problem now is that we left negotiation to Remainiacs, whose aim (together with the EU's) was to get a terrible deal for the UK and then paint it as the fault of Brexit in principle, in the hope that we end up staying.

The Brexit Secretaries were David Davis and Dominic Raab, neither known for their Remainiac views. Project fear warned at the start that the EU would not give us a good deal. They did not. When Davis couldn't get the deal he wanted, and was never going to get, he quit. Like most of the cowardly Brexiteers, who prefer to agitate from the outside, rather than stand up and take responsibility. For the majority leading the country into leave this has all been about themselves, their personal wealth and the wealth of their associates. They do not care about the country, the economy or the vast majority of the population whose quality of life will be greatly reduced for the sake of blue passports and "taking back control".

 

[pemma]

The same way we manage at a GE. I can't see every single Con/Lab voter agreeing with every single word of the respective manifesto, but people manage to make a choice.

2010 General Election I voted Lib Dem. I was well aware of the headline policy to change the personal allowance for income tax and was pleased they got that implemented as part of the coalition. I was also aware of their plan for free school meals for infants - I wouldn't have voted for that as an individual policy but was happy to vote for a manifesto including it. In 2015 I got a further vote and all the parties had new manifestos.

At the EU referendum I didn't consider leaving the EU was worth the economic risks considering we still haven't recovered from the last recession and there wasn't any clear plan of how we would leave so I voted to remain. With remain we knew what we were getting, with leave all we knew is that there's one option we weren't getting. It was a bit like having a ballot paper of Conservative or Not Conservative - then you could vote Not Conservative because you want a more far right party or vote Not Conservative because you don't want a right leaning party. Had the 2017 election been Conservative or Not Conservative I'm certain Not Conservative would have won but that doesn't mean there's any one party who were more popular at the time.

 

[furnessvale]

This is what happens when you take to the electorate with a vague question requiring a complex answer. At the very least the referendum should have had additional options in the case of a leave vote, asking between a full no deal withdrawal, partial withdrawal or a Norwegian style deal. This would have forced a debate on the leave options and given those "Brexit means Brexit" mantra followers no place to hide, and forced them to go beyond empty jingoistic rhetoric.

We needed open and frank debate, we got playground shenanigans and name calling. May and her team felt they had to appease these people, and this bodged rush job of a deal is the result.

Interesting that your proposed amendments to the vote include various extensions to the leave option but nothing other than remain "as is" on the remain side.

The option of "remain, but leave after 5 years if extensive alterations to our position within the EU has not been achieved" COULD have been an attractive (but equally unobtainable) option to many.

 

[telstarbox]

Another day of popcorn politics. There's likely to be a confidence vote with at least 48 letters having been received. Today, maybe..?

And Gove isn't quitting.

Who would be the alternative leader to TM who could a) win a majority of Cons membership votes; b) win a majority at the next general election?

 

[Muttley]

...With remain we knew what we were getting...

...and that's why Leave won.
Without 're-running 2yrs ago, we had a vote in '75 of staying in a trading bloc, that has manifestly changed to "ever closer political union". We knew we'd get this vote and that would be it for another 40yrs. Where would be then ? Who knows.

 

[nlogax]

Who would be the alternative leader to TM who could a) win a majority of Cons membership votes; b) win a majority at the next general election?

As if any Conservative Brexiteer has actually considered the ramifications of a no confidence going their way - or the other. Either she loses and there'll be a void at the top which no-one seems to know who would fill it, or she wins and they won't be able to force another vote again for a year - by which time this will all be moot.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Don't you know, their liberal policies allow law and order to break down, teenage pregnancies to mushroom, taking away housing stock because we have to give them free houses, allowing immigration to run wild and taking away housing stock because, you know, we have to give all those muzzies free houses and also give both teenage mothers and immigrants loads and loads and loads of benefits and stuff.

That wins the prize for the most racist and uninformed (other than by the Daily Express headlines) post I've ever seen on here. I'm not even going to bother to take your posting apart.

 

[pemma]

...and that's why Leave won.
Without 're-running 2yrs ago, we had a vote in '75 of staying in a trading bloc, that has manifestly changed to "ever closer political union". We knew we'd get this vote and that would be it for another 40yrs. Where would be then ? Who knows.

And strangely as soon as 1977 some politicians were suggesting the result was already invalid as circumstances have changed, with the announcement that the public will elect officials to send to Brussels.

 

[eotw]

That wins the prize for the most racist and uninformed (other than by the Daily Express headlines) post I've ever seen on here. I'm not even going to bother to take your posting apart.

Pretty sure post was tongue in cheek.

 

[DarloRich]

This carry-on is the best entertainment I've had in ages.

Westminster or this board or both

 

[Puffing Devil]

Pretty sure post was tongue in cheek.

I hope so, though it's so hard to tell.....

 

[DarloRich]

The Brexit Secretaries were David Davis and Dominic Raab, neither known for their Remainiac views. Project fear warned at the start that the EU would not give us a good deal. They did not. When Davis couldn't get the deal he wanted, and was never going to get, he quit. Like most of the cowardly Brexiteers, who prefer to agitate from the outside, rather than stand up and take responsibility. For the majority leading the country into leave this has all been about themselves, their personal wealth and the wealth of their associates. They do not care about the country, the economy or the vast majority of the population whose quality of life will be greatly reduced for the sake of blue passports and "taking back control".

is the correct answer.

I would also add in some kind of fantasy about Britain of the late 40's/early 50's regaling its place as a great imperial power and giving the fiendish hun what-for. Its balderdash.

I wish someone with half a brain would come out and give a cogent argument for brexit or a no deal brexit. I don't mind that people wan these things. I do mind they don't understand what they are asking for and are hell bent on delivering something they don't understand.

 

[trash80]

...and that's why Leave won.
Without 're-running 2yrs ago, we had a vote in '75 of staying in a trading bloc, that has manifestly changed to "ever closer political union". We knew we'd get this vote and that would be it for another 40yrs. Where would be then ? Who knows.

Things change, the world changes. That is life.

 

[DarloRich]

At the EU referendum I didn't consider leaving the EU was worth the economic risks considering we still haven't recovered from the last recession and there wasn't any clear plan of how we would leave so I voted to remain

that also sums up my view. I was agnostic on the EU leaning towards leaving as the media portrayed such a poor picture. I wanted information and evidence from leave. What we got was bluster and lies.