Shortage of trains to cause severe disruption to Penistone Line and Ormskirk-Preston

[underbank]

It's hard to have any sympathy for Northern when they can't even be bothered to enter the correct formation information into the PIS. WMT manage it if there is a short form.

At least the train is shown on the PIS. I've had occasions where no train is shown on the screen but then it appears at the platform causing a lot of confusion.

 

[Killingworth]

You may find, dependent upon the bird species, that to cut the trees would breach wildlife protection laws. Also it is not impossible that tree preservation orders may be in place.

And leaves have a habit of blowing across hedges and fences!

Given the regular seasonal experience of wheel flats in the autumn it may be appropriate for TOCs to revisit their preparations for dealing with them more quickly. That said, if all TOCs had a bigger margin within their fleets to cover such issues we might also have reserve stock to reduce normal over crowding, refurbishments, and breakdowns.

 

[Killingworth]

At least the train is shown on the PIS. I've had occasions where no train is shown on the screen but then it appears at the platform causing a lot of confusion.

Or in the case of the following train for Liverpool yesterday it stopped at the far end of 14b with passengers having to push through crowds to get quickly to it! Much panic as they'd gathered expecting it to be at the other end where they were mixed up with those awaiting the also delayed Edinburgh train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least the train is shown on the PIS. I've had occasions where no train is shown on the screen but then it appears at the platform causing a lot of confusion.

Oxford Road in the late evening (when there were no staff manually controlling it) used to display utter garbage, i.e. it would show trains in their timetabled sequence regardless of delays. At least ATOS Annie doesn't do that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or in the case of the following train for Liverpool yesterday it stopped at the far end of 14b with passengers having to push through crowds to get quickly to it! Much panic as they'd gathered expecting it to be at the other end where they were mixed up with those awaiting the also delayed Edinburgh train.

Will they ever learn to manage 14a/b properly? It would make a lot of sense to make the decision sooner even if it was a waste of time in the end.

 

[dcbwhaley]

There are a handful of wheel lathes that can be used.

Problem is that every other TOC has wheel flats, and it backs up. Also it's not really changing a wheel. It's getting the profile of the wheel trimmed down to a specific level, which also means all the others on that unit need doing to the same spec.

It's not like Kwik fit, it's a job that once started takes several hours continually.

Why doe you need a lather to change a wheel? Surely all the wheels are made to the same spec and spares are held.

 

[Eccles1983]

Why doe you need a lather to change a wheel? Surely all the wheels are made to the same spec and spares are held.

Because they aren't changing them.

They are skimming them down. A wheel set costs a lot of money. To replace them everytime they got a 60mm flat would mean that TOC's wouldn't. They would just cancel services outright due to massive costs.

A wheel can be lathed a couple of times before it needs binning. It's not a car one that you can pick up for cheap. Its thousands of pounds per bogey/set.

 

[father_jack]

Why doe you need a lather to change a wheel? Surely all the wheels are made to the same spec and spares are held.

Are you serious (despite the spelling) ? A little research would explain the basics. Sorry if I'm being a backseat mod....

 

[mandub]

Even on cars, ABS isn't perfect though; and I imagine that on a train even a brief skid can cause damage given the huge forces involved.

Though most of Northerns diesel fleet don't have WSP anyway.

 

[adrock1976]

Yes, its known as WSP

Even on cars, ABS isn't perfect though; and I imagine that on a train even a brief skid can cause damage given the huge forces involved.

Could you both please explain what the bolded acronyms/abbreviations/jargon is?

I believe it is a long standing forum policy not to use acronyms/abbreviations/jargon without first saying what they mean.

 

[_toommm_]

Could you both please explain what the bolded acronyms/abbreviations/jargon is?

I believe it is a long standing forum policy not to use acronyms/abbreviations/jargon without first saying what they mean.

WSP = Wheel Slip Protection (Trains)
ABS = Antilock Braking System (Cars)

 

[philthetube]

You may find, dependent upon the bird species, that to cut the trees would breach wildlife protection laws. Also it is not impossible that tree preservation orders may be in place.

Very unlikely that tree preservation orders would be in place on trees on railway land as almost all trees have grown up since steam days, (not impossible though).

 

[HLE]

I thought if the brake was pushed to emergency, it turned the WSP off & basically ensured a flat? If it was in one of the steps then you’d get a juddering (and longer) stop as the WSP tried to keep the wheels turning

Yep you’re on the money. There’s a few reasons why you could end up in emergency but that’s route, traction and even driving style specific.

Remember that there’s still units that don’t have WSP though. It’s when it locks up in 1 that you have a decision to make. I know a few won’t wait long before hitting emergency when that happens. Not worth the career.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Are you serious (despite the spelling) ? A little research would explain the basics. Sorry if I'm being a backseat mod....

Sorry for confusing you by abbreviating lathe operator.
No it is a genuine question? Why can't you just change a damaged wheel for a spare. Presumably if the wheel was damaged beyond repair you would have to do that?

 

[Tomnick]

I thought if the brake was pushed to emergency, it turned the WSP off & basically ensured a flat? If it was in one of the steps then you’d get a juddering (and longer) stop as the WSP tried to keep the wheels turning

No, you’ll get the full benefit of WSP and sands still. You’ll stop quicker with WSP doing its stuff than you will if you just let it go into a full uncontrolled slide.

Will they ever learn to manage 14a/b properly? It would make a lot of sense to make the decision sooner even if it was a waste of time in the end.

The default is to go to the far end. Even if the mid-platform signal’s at danger, the preference is to wait until it clears and draw forward rather than do station duties at the near end.

 

[Mogster]

Though most of Northerns diesel fleet don't have WSP anyway.

When I asked earlier about ABS (WSP) I did suspect this would be the case. After all the 142s, 150s and 156s are 1980s technology...

Edit....

Article below suggests WSP can be retrofitted to older stock.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ve-wsp-breaking-system-across-rural-services-

 

[HLE]

No, you’ll get the full benefit of WSP and sands still. You’ll stop quicker with WSP doing its stuff than you will if you just let it go into a full uncontrolled slide.

The default is to go to the far end. Even if the mid-platform signal’s at danger, the preference is to wait until it clears and draw forward rather than do station duties at the near end.

And if the unit slides in 1 with WSP fitted? WSP is doing its best but ultimately if you’re running out of road it’s into emergency. Happened more than once this year over this way. The sanders being fitted helped a lot too a few years back.

 

[Llanigraham]

Sorry for confusing you by abbreviating lathe operator.
No it is a genuine question? Why can't you just change a damaged wheel for a spare. Presumably if the wheel was damaged beyond repair you would have to do that?

Simple answer.
Trains are not like cars and don't have seperate wheels. They are solidly fitted to axles right across the unit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel

 

[alangla]

When I asked earlier about ABS (WSP) I did suspect this would be the case. After all the 142s, 150s and 156s are 1980s technology...

Edit....

Article below suggests WSP can be retrofitted to older stock.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ve-wsp-breaking-system-across-rural-services-

Mk3 coaching stock has WSP, doesn’t it?

 

[Tomnick]

And if the unit slides in 1 with WSP fitted? WSP is doing its best but ultimately if you’re running out of road it’s into emergency. Happened more than once this year over this way. The sanders being fitted helped a lot too a few years back.

Yes, I quite agree! You should still get the benefit of WSP in emergency though if I’m not mistaken, possibly traction dependent, that’s my point. I was disagreeing with the suggestion that (regardless of the brake step) WSP activity lengthens the braking distance relative to just letting it slide - it doesn’t.

 

[Meerkat]

This is probably a dumb question but if your sliding what good does emergency do - is it just that any grip you do get will be used to the Max? I assume I am correct that emergency is just maximum brake force rather than anything cleverer?

 

[B&I]

Oh look another shambles on Northern. Good thing I was sitting down before I read this thread.

Naive question coming up: has nobody invented a system for removing leaves from lines ?

 

[Eccles1983]

It applies max brake force, and auto fires the Sanders.

It also eliminates the possibility for an electrical cross feed in the brake system.

 

[Eccles1983]

Oh look another shambles on Northern. Good thing I was sitting down before I read this thread.

Naive question coming up: has nobody invented a system for removing leaves from lines ?

Naïve doesn't begin to explain.

It's been the worst season for over a decade, some old hands are stating it's the worst in 20/30 years.


Not sure Northern can be blamed for this, it is really nasty out on the rails, and the rhtt seems to be hiding this year.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

WSP = Wheel Slip Protection (Trains)
ABS = Antilock Braking System (Cars)

Alternaively if we're talking about Northern Rail the acronyms could stand for We Shaft Passengers and Appallling Bleeding Service!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Oh look another shambles on Northern. Good thing I was sitting down before I read this thread.

Naive question coming up: has nobody invented a system for removing leaves from lines ?

I think what particularly annoys me is that Northern appear to have been totally unprepared for Autumn and the fact that leaves fall off trees onto railway lines has come as a complete shock to them. The first I knew of the cancellations on the Penistone Line was when I checked my train times on monday morning; unless 42 units all suddenly developed wheel faults on sunday evening, they must have known in advance that they didn't have enough units to run a full service between Barnsley and Sheffield so why didn't they publish this information earlier.

I'm also sceptical about the flimsy excuse "More trains than usual needing repairs at the same time". Due to the Saturday strikes Northern are effectively only running a 6 day week railway and, as Sunday services are less frequent, most of their units are only in service Monday to Friday, so why not do the wheel repairs at the weekend?

 

[talltim]

put a banking engine on at shepley.

put a twenty ton ingot in the bike space to hold the train to the rails.

/sarc

Magnahesion

 

[sprinterguy]

Naive question coming up: has nobody invented a system for removing leaves from lines ?

Yes, the Rail Head Treatment Trains operate over much of the network, particularly known adhesion blackspots, at this time of the year using high pressure water jets to remove leaf mulch from the rails. However, they can't be everywhere at once, and hence the leaf residue accumulates with the passage of successive service trains.

Lasers have also been trialled as a means to clear the railhead of contamination, but they haven't as far as I'm aware been taken up by Network Rail:
https://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature1457/
https://www.smartrailworld.com/watch-lasering-the-tracks-futuristic-foil-autumnal-leaf-fall

 

[Bantamzen]

Naïve doesn't begin to explain.

It's been the worst season for over a decade, some old hands are stating it's the worst in 20/30 years.


Not sure Northern can be blamed for this, it is really nasty out on the rails, and the rhtt seems to be hiding this year.

No, no, no, we should blame Northern for everything. Late trains, late running electrification, low rail adhesion, heavy rain, wind, snow, plagues of locusts...

 

[Ken H]

No, no, no, we should blame Northern for everything. Late trains, late running electrification, low rail adhesion, heavy rain, wind, snow, plagues of locusts...

with Northern management being pre-occupied with the shortage of stock due to late electrification, and the strikes, one almost has sympathy for them failing to be on top on leaf fall season problems.
And today it snowed. ....