Envoy
Established Member
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- 29 Aug 2014
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Why I go on National Rail.co.uk and put in for a journey and select BUY - I get put through a a TOC website. Is that the company that actually gets my fare?
The company that directly gets your money is the one that you give your card details to.Why I go on National Rail.co.uk and put in for a journey and select BUY - I get put through a a TOC website. Is that the company that actually gets my fare?
See http://www.brfares.com, for example http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=EDB&dest=CDF to see who sets the fare, in this case it is indeed Cross Country (route NOT VIA LONDON, open and SVR tickets) and it is well known here that much money can be saved by splitting fares set by XC in particular. However advance fares VT & CONNECTIONS are set by Virgin West Coast.So, are Cross Country setting this fare even though no sane traveller would be using their trains to get from Edinburgh to Cardiff as they go the long way via Newcastle?
No problem. There is no particular logic to which site National Rail Enquiries directs you to, to buy the ticket(s) suggested. Sometimes it will be the train company used, where there is only one involved in the journey. For other journeys it will be the fare setter.Many thanks for your answers - and especially ‘ForThe LoveOf’ for taking the time to give your detailed response.
I asked the question because when I put in for a journey from Edinburgh to Cardiff on 12 December I saw that a 10.52 departure (Virgin to Crewe and then Transport For Wales to Cardiff) was the quickest at 6 hours 2 minutes. The odd thing then happens when it directs me to the Cross Country website to take my fare. My journey is nothing to do with Cross Country. I take it that Cross Country are not actually getting any of my money - should I book this journey and that it is being split between Virgin & Transport For Wales? Anyway, I am aware that I can get such fares down by splitting the ticket at Crewe. The high fares for this route must surely put people off travelling by train - if they don't know about the split. So, are Cross Country setting this fare even though no sane traveller would be using their trains to get from Edinburgh to Cardiff as they go the long way via Newcastle?
Exactly that - to see which business sectors were the most 'profitable'.What was the purpose of ORCATS pre-privatisation, when there was only a single company running the trains? Was it allocating revenue to sectors for accounting purposes, or something like that?
This isn't neccesarily value for money though. For example, there is a Virgin Trains Only fare from Edinburgh to Birmingham. I'm not sure there'd be any point in buying it though because it is only a wee bit cheaper and it restricts you to a two-hourly service. If you wanted to travel before 0930 on a weekday it would be a fair bit cheaper though.Perhaps Arrive Trains Wales would not co-operate with Virgin on setting through fares because Arriva figured that they could keep all of the money as they owned Cross Country?
I don't think attracting money to the railway by reducing through fares is the operators' primary concern. In a way, the fares are set so high so as to put off price-conscious passengers from travelling on all but the least busy trains (on which somewhat more palatable Advances will be available). In many cases, it is more profitable to have the same seat occupied by several passengers each travelling shorter stretches along a route, rather than to have one passenger travelling the whole distance - as the equivalent pence-per-mile yield will be higher for multiple shorter journeys (even on regulated fares).So, a company that I would not be travelling on set most of the fares for through tickets between Edinburgh & Cardiff at a ridiculously high rate. What a ridiculous system. Surely this means fewer people make such a journey by train and this must impact on the two companies that a person would be using for such a trip = Virgin & Transport for Wales.
Perhaps Arriva Trains Wales would not co-operate with Virgin on setting through fares because Arriva figured that they could keep all of the money as they owned Cross Country?
This is no way to run a railway. It is cheaper to fly!
I don't think attracting money to the railway by reducing through fares is the operators' primary concern. In a way, the fares are set so high so as to put off price-conscious passengers from travelling on all but the least busy trains (on which somewhat more palatable Advances will be available). In many cases, it is more profitable to have the same seat occupied by several passengers each travelling shorter stretches along a route, rather than to have one passenger travelling the whole distance - as the equivalent pence-per-mile yield will be higher for multiple shorter journeys (even on regulated fares).
At the end of the day - the railways are, overall, still heavily subsidised by the Government; the only train companies which are nominally contributors to the taxpayer are SWR and VTEC - and both have had financial problems to different levels. Until such time as Government policy - and, frankly, popular opinion - changes so that subsidising the railways more becomes acceptable, high through fares for long distance will not change.
It took me all of 30 seconds to find that through tickets are available from Edinburgh to Cardiff Central for £33.I get what you are saying but when I look at Advance fares from Edinburgh to King’s Cross, I see through ticket fares as low as £26.50. This is just a fraction of the Edinburgh to Cardiff fares for a similar distance. So, clearly, because Cross Country are setting the latter fare - even though they don't operate trains on the direct route, people on this route are getting screwed.
It's very difficult to compare an Advance with a (long-distance) walk-up ticket. They are each designed for totally different markets. £150 odd for Edinburgh to Cardiff return is not cheap, but it compares quite favourably with the cost of fuel (let alone all the other costs associated with a long car journey) if you were to drive there and back.I get what you are saying but when I look at Advance fares from Edinburgh to King’s Cross, I see through ticket fares as low as £26.50. This is just a fraction of the Edinburgh to Cardiff fares for a similar distance. So, clearly, because Cross Country are setting the latter fare - even though they don't operate trains on the direct route, people on this route are getting screwed.
Yes, but that fare is for a train leaving Edinburgh at around 4pm and arriving in Cardiff over 8 hours later at 00.23.It took me all of 30 seconds to find that through tickets are available from Edinburgh to Cardiff Central for £33.
You can't always travel at a convenient time for such a good price!Yes, but that fare is for a train leaving Edinburgh at around 4pm and arriving in Cardiff over 8 hours later at 00.23.
It's very difficult to compare an Advance with a (long-distance) walk-up ticket. They are each designed for totally different markets. £150 odd for Edinburgh to Cardiff return is not cheap, but it compares quite favourably with the cost of fuel (let alone all the other costs associated with a long car journey) if you were to drive there and back.
And in any case, as @Starmill has pointed out, a little searching will show through Advances from Edinburgh to Cardiff at prices very similar to that for Edinburgh to London.
I think it's worth also bearing in mind the difference in the markets between Edinburgh to London and Edinburgh to Cardiff. The former has stiff competition from the airlines in terms of price and time. The latter, not so much. Like it or not, the railways are a commercial operation in almost all cases nowadays, so they are no longer there to get people from one place to another cheaply as a public service.
Crosscountry could hardly cut their Edinburgh-Cardiff off peak returns by much, or else they'd undercut Virgin's Glasgow-Cardiff tickets (Edinburgh-Cardiff is valid via Glasgow and Shrewsbury, but not vice versa).See http://www.brfares.com, for example http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=EDB&dest=CDF to see who sets the fare, in this case it is indeed Cross Country (route NOT VIA LONDON, open and SVR tickets) and it is well known here that much money can be saved by splitting fares set by XC in particular. However advance fares VT & CONNECTIONS are set by Virgin West Coast.
Flybe fly direct between Edinburgh and Cardiff. In fact I just found a flight that leaves Edinburgh at 12.05 and arrives Cardiff at 13.20 with the price on 12 January of £25. So, in terms of price and time, I can’t say that the railways face stiff competition on the Edinburgh to Cardiff route because they simply don’t provide any competition. It is a no - brainer > Fly.
Of course there is.No problem. There is no particular logic to which site National Rail Enquiries directs you to, to buy the ticket(s) suggested.
You are correct that the retailer bears no relationship to the TOC that receives the customer's money. However, in most cases, the fare setter will also be the largest recipient of the money (and, in some cases, the sole recipient); that is why they are the fare setter. So it is not true to say there is "no relationship". There are of course, many exceptions and anomalies; but they should not detract from the fact that there is (broadly, on an industry-wide basis) a strong relationship between fare setting and receipt of customers' money.The retailer you use, and the fare setter for the fare, both have no relation to the company which will actually, at the end of the day, end up with your money.
There is no particular logic to which site National Rail Enquiries directs you to, to buy the ticket(s) suggested.
Of course there is.
Well, perhaps I should have said this - there is no automatic link. Sometimes the fare setter, retailer and recipient of the ORCATS money will all be the same. Sometimes they will all three be different - perhaps most commonly where there are "intercity" TOC controlled flows for journeys which are fastest on non-"intercity" services, e.g. Stafford to Rugby during the non-peak service pattern.You are correct that the retailer bears no relationship to the TOC that receives the customer's money. However, in most cases, the fare setter will also be the largest recipient of the money (and, in some cases, the sole recipient); that is why they are the fare setter. So it is not true to say there is "no relationship". There are of course, many exceptions and anomalies; but they should not detract from the fact that there is (broadly, on an industry-wide basis) a strong relationship between fare setting and receipt of customers' money.
Well, not in my experience! Sometimes it's the TOC that provides the majority of the journey. Sometimes it just seems to pull a random site out of a hat.Of course there is.