ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[DannyMich2018]

Might be easier with a 442. *ducks*

Possibly. Both could be technically possible and no more time consuming than the current situation. The problem is now for Wabtec it needs to refurbish enough HST's before the end of 2019 as the current unrefurbished ones cannot run after then (don't comply with PRM regulations) and there needs to be enough refurbished ones in services otherwise they will be a shortfall in trains.

 

[43096]

Sounds about right.

MkVs and some suitable locomotive?

With a two year lead time.

Interesting to note that the new sleeper Mark 5s are not going to be in service until next year, and they were ordered at the start of that franchise, which is when the current ScotRail franchise started. So for those constantly whining about the HSTs, consider this: if ScotRail had gone for Mark 5s they would have none in traffic now and no plan B available, either.

 

[GrimShady]

With a two year lead time.

Interesting to note that the new sleeper Mark 5s are not going to be in service until next year, and they were ordered at the start of that franchise, which is when the current ScotRail franchise started. So for those constantly whining about the HSTs, consider this: if ScotRail had gone for Mark 5s they would have none in traffic now and no plan B available, either.

It would seem we're looking at two year's if not more for a complete HST fleet.

I'm all for refurbished MK3s, but at this pace??

 

[Goldromans]

I know this argument has been made plenty times, but with the the extent of the delays at wabtec now being realised, might it be an idea for ScotRail to secure some Mk4's? Wabtec could continue to (try and) refurbish the Mk3's until the Mk4's come off lease, then begin working on them? They would only need the internal work done (cafe, first class snack area, livery etc) as they already have automatic doors and retention tanks. Far from ideal, but would surely be faster than waiting for the Mk3's, unless things suddenly start to pick up?

 

[380101]

I know this argument has been made plenty times, but with the the extent of the delays at wabtec now being realised, might it be an idea for ScotRail to secure some Mk4's? Wabtec could continue to (try and) refurbish the Mk3's until the Mk4's come off lease, then begin working on them? They would only need the internal work done (cafe, first class snack area, livery etc) as they already have automatic doors and retention tanks. Far from ideal, but would surely be faster than waiting for the Mk3's, unless things suddenly start to pick up?

How do you suggest ScotRail haul these Mk4 coaches you propose? Class 43 locos (HST power cars) are not compatible with Mk4 or indeed any other coaching stock apart from HST Mk3s. No other locomotives are available that can achieve the timetable that is now in place for HSTs.

 

[Goldromans]

How do you suggest ScotRail haul these Mk4 coaches you propose? Class 43 locos (HST power cars) are not compatible with Mk4 or indeed any other coaching stock apart from HST Mk3s. No other locomotives are available that can achieve the timetable that is now in place for HSTs.

It's been stated before that modifications could be made to make Mk4's and 43's work together. I believe this being proposed for the EMT franchise. Again not ideal, but ScotRail can't run the classic sets indefinitely, and I can't see any other alternatives. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on these sorts of things, but this work does sound easier than fitting automatic doors and retention tanks to Mk3's.

 

[Highland37]

If it's moving into a different set of coaches, as Wabtec continual to fail to deliver, the entire idea is dead. A new order would be better.

Time to prepare for electrification.

 

[Northhighland]

Before we all go ordering new trains we really don’t know why Wabtec are taking so long. Is it that they are having serious technical difficulties or is it a lack of skilled resource.

Solutions to either problem are different.

 

[Northhighland]

If it's moving into a different set of coaches, as Wabtec continual to fail to deliver, the entire idea is dead. A new order would be better.

Time to prepare for electrification.

Electrification to Aberdeen abd Inverness are no more than a pipe dream.

Especially at the costs network rail are delivering the current electrification projects.

We need to understand the HST issue before going in a new direction

I suspect the truth about Wabtec is more to do with staffing than corrosion.

 

[Journeyman]

I suspect the truth about Wabtec is more to do with staffing than corrosion.

Staffing is certainly a problem, yes, but so is corrosion - your average Mark 3 has at least a few leaks in it, and a body like a Swiss cheese.

 

[43096]

Staffing is certainly a problem, yes, but so is corrosion - your average Mark 3 has at least a few leaks in it, and a body like a Swiss cheese.

It's probably about 50/50. The GWR Mark 3s are knackered - basically they are in an appalling condition.

 

[gingertom]

bigger problem is a new build of any sort of stock, be it loco-hauled or some flavour of diesel or bi-mode multiple unit, is they will take considerable time to manufacture, test and introduce into service too. The usual suspects are busy fulfilling other orders, they certainly won't be delivered by the PRM-TSI deadline.

 

[gingertom]

from the 385 thread:

It would seem we're looking at two year's if not more for a complete HST fleet.

I'm all for refurbished MK3s, but at this pace??

I'm not the greatest fan of the 800 but I reckon they could turn out a fleet of 802s quicker than Wabtec could refurb the HST coaches.

 

[Highland37]

Yes. Bombardier are putting out 4 coaches week. Wabtec less than one a month

 

[Northhighland]

If the staffing can be fixed the finished product from Wabtec is fine.

New build will take time, by the time procurement is done and testing and commissioning at the other end be at least three years to get new stock in.

The issue I see as a problem is the dithering currently going on. If corrosion is a real issue then decisions on the programme need to be made. On any refurb job labour costs are hugely significant. If each coach is taking longer to do then the cost will be going up and there will be a point when it becomes not worth doing. Maybe East Coast coaches are in better nick? If not maybe time for a decision to be made. Longer it is left the more expensive any change becomes.

 

[_toommm_]

My question is: if the corrosion really is this bad, then why wasn't it spotted when GWR refurbished the coaches into the green interiors?

 

[InvHst]

Anyone not slightly concerned where the actual "in service" trains are haven't seen 1 in inverness for a few days think we had 1 last night but we should have at least 4 a day. Also noting other lines hsts being missing as well? How many are actually running. What a complete joke and no official communication.

 

[JohnR]

Electrification to Aberdeen abd Inverness are no more than a pipe dream.

Especially at the costs network rail are delivering the current electrification projects.

We need to understand the HST issue before going in a new direction

I suspect the truth about Wabtec is more to do with staffing than corrosion.

I dont see that it is a pipe dream. Network Rail in Scotland is managing to deliver electrification much cheaper than south of the border - £1.3m/stkm, compared to close to £2m for GWML. Is it still too high? Yes. Is it heading in the right direction? Also yes.

 

[59CosG95]

My question is: if the corrosion really is this bad, then why wasn't it spotted when GWR refurbished the coaches into the green interiors?

Probably due to the nature of the refurbishment. The repaint into green just involved, well...a repaint. The ScotRail (and indeed GWR GTi & CrossCountry) jobs are quite a bit more mechanical, with corrosion on the inside of the bodyshell coming to light.

Repaints probably don't require the removal of a trailer from its bogies, or even its frame. This sounds more like it might.

 

[43096]

Repaints probably don't require the removal of a trailer from its bogies, or even its frame. This sounds more like it might.

I’m intrigued as to how you remove a Mark 3 bodyshell from the frame, given that it is a monocoque.

 

[Highland37]

I dont see that it is a pipe dream. Network Rail in Scotland is managing to deliver electrification much cheaper than south of the border - £1.3m/stkm, compared to close to £2m for GWML. Is it still too high? Yes. Is it heading in the right direction? Also yes.

Fully agree with you. It;s not a pipe dream, for most anyway, and we need to think beyond ancient rolling stock and poor quality suppliers (Wabtec).

The line could be electrified within 10 years and interim solutions found in the meantime.

 

[59CosG95]

I’m intrigued as to how you remove a Mark 3 bodyshell from the frame, given that it is a monocoque.

I can't deny that my knowledge of bodyshells and frames leaves much to be desired

 

[gsnedders]

Fully agree with you. It;s not a pipe dream, for most anyway, and we need to think beyond ancient rolling stock and poor quality suppliers (Wabtec).

The line could be electrified within 10 years and interim solutions found in the meantime.

All the intercity mainlines in Scotland electrified within 10 years? That's definitely a pipe dream. Both mainlines north from the Central Belt have a number of major challenges (the Forth Bridge and the Fife Coastal Line especially), and I doubt either could be done in 10 years even given a massive budget (given there's only so many trained staff).

 

[Highland37]

All the intercity mainlines in Scotland electrified within 10 years? That's definitely a pipe dream. Both mainlines north from the Central Belt have a number of major challenges (the Forth Bridge and the Fife Coastal Line especially), and I doubt either could be done in 10 years even given a massive budget (given there's only so many trained staff).

No, Dunblane to Inverness.

 

[59CosG95]

No, Dunblane to Inverness.

There is the small matter of the proposed remodelling of Perth to contend with first...

 

[CEN60]

There is the small matter of the proposed remodelling of Perth to contend with first...

I assume NR are looking at this?

 

[David M]

I suspect the truth about Wabtec is more to do with staffing than corrosion.

You're possibly right but Wabtec vacancies are exclusively showing temporary contracts which hardly encourages applications imo.
Scotrail seem convinced that by this time next year, all the refurbished HST sets will be complete - I find this very difficult to believe but hope it is the case.

 

[59CosG95]

I assume NR are looking at this?

I believe so - it's in the plan for CP6 AIUI, but no detailed plans of the remodelling have yet emerged. As discussed at length on the Scottish wiring thread, it's pointless to wire to Perth before that time.

 

[GrimShady]

What state are the LNER Mk3s in? Would these be better candidates than the GWR coaches?

 

[PHILIPE]

Before we all go ordering new trains we really don’t know why Wabtec are taking so long. Is it that they are having serious technical difficulties or is it a lack of skilled resource.

Solutions to either problem are different.

I think it is the Wabtec workload due to so much work being given to them at the same time, spate of of PRM Mods as the deadline day gets nearer, HST conversions, discovering corrosion issues when stock arrives.