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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Bletchleyite

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You are correct, but a vehicle built almost 70 years ago and retired almost 30 years ago will not stand the test of any modern scrutiny. Grandfather rules do not apply, and little if anything in the last 30 years through this tunnels has restricted emergency egress in the manner this rolling stock will.

This is not true, once the 101s were retired First North Western frequently used Class 150/1s which do not have end doors. It is only since the separation of the Welsh franchise that these have not featured, which is a lot less than 30 years ago. And so far as I know the only reason that this is the case is simply that the Welsh franchise does not have any rolling stock (other than 175s which aren't passed because they would hit things, I believe, and Pacers which aren't passed because the curves are too tight) that doesn't have end gangways.

In any case, it might well be possible to build a 230 with an end evacuation door (just like there are, for instance, Class 70x with them and without, or that there are gangwayed and non-gangwayed versions of all the modern DMU and EMU platforms - and it will no doubt help that the "donor" D-stock did have such doors). It would just require some small modifications to the structure.

Furthermore the Class 101s were retired in about 1999, which is 20 years ago, not 30.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Apart from the Llandudno shuttle hasn't that always been the plan until the new CAF and Stadler units enter service? Crewe-Chester, Llandudno-Blaenau and Bidston-Wrexham first and in the long term putting all of them on Bidston-Wrexham to provide a half hourly service with 4 units and with 1 spare.

Yes, correct. The Conwy Valley will in the long run be operated using 2-car sets of the new CAF DMUs. Which will be quite an upgrade!
 

6Gtraincrew

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We've had various bits and bobs down the Conwy Valley over the years. 101's, 150/1, steam specials, diesel hauled coaching stock specials, none of which had end doors. I'm also sure we had a Voyager special down there many years ago not long after they entered service.
 

Bletchleyite

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We've had various bits and bobs down the Conwy Valley over the years. 101's, 150/1, steam specials, diesel hauled coaching stock specials, none of which had end doors. I'm also sure we had a Voyager special down there many years ago not long after they entered service.

Pretty sure an HST has also been down at some point.
 

konstant

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This is not true, once the 101s were retired First North Western frequently used Class 150/1s which do not have end doors. It is only since the separation of the Welsh franchise that these have not featured, which is a lot less than 30 years ago. And so far as I know the only reason that this is the case is simply that the Welsh franchise does not have any rolling stock (other than 175s which aren't passed because they would hit things, I believe, and Pacers which aren't passed because the curves are too tight) that doesn't have end gangways.

In any case, it might well be possible to build a 230 with an end evacuation door (just like there are, for instance, Class 70x with them and without, or that there are gangwayed and non-gangwayed versions of all the modern DMU and EMU platforms - and it will no doubt help that the "donor" D-stock did have such doors). It would just require some small modifications to the structure.

Furthermore the Class 101s were retired in about 1999, which is 20 years ago, not 30.

All good points, but the bottom line is this all predates the requirements in group standards for end evacuation. How would such an argument aid Vivarail in an ALARP discussion relating to this risk?

We've had various bits and bobs down the Conwy Valley over the years. 101's, 150/1, steam specials, diesel hauled coaching stock specials, none of which had end doors. I'm also sure we had a Voyager special down there many years ago not long after they entered service.

Again, good points, but in an ALARP type discussion you can't use one-offs and limited runs or those of an infrequent nature to satisfy the requirements of a permanent service.
 

Bletchleyite

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All good points, but the bottom line is this all predates the requirements in group standards for end evacuation. How would such an argument aid Vivarail in an ALARP discussion relating to this risk?

The problem with ALARP is that it stands for "as low as reasonably possible". It is therefore quite subjective, and can be driven by other factors.

It isn't ALAP i.e. "as low as possible", which would be quite different.
 

konstant

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The problem with ALARP is that it stands for "as low as reasonably possible". It is therefore quite subjective, and can be driven by other factors.

It isn't ALAP i.e. "as low as possible", which would be quite different.

Sorry, but this just isn't correct. Under the scrutiny process the 230 would have to go through, ALARP is the process. There is little if any subjectivity about ALARP. It's not based on the personal views of one individual and is measured against known, defined and agreed industry standards. There are little if any other factors that have any real effect on the impartiality or credibility of an ALARP based approach to rolling stock scrutiny.

ALAP has no legal recognition in the eyes of the bodies whom would undertake this assessment, including the HSE, whom use the ALARP methodology. This is a perfectly normal process which every single piece of rolling stock introduced onto the railway in the last two decades has gone through, except for one. Yet.
 

krus_aragon

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You are correct, but a vehicle built almost 70 years ago and retired almost 30 years ago will not stand the test of any modern scrutiny. Grandfather rules do not apply, and little if anything in the last 30 years through this tunnels has restricted emergency egress in the manner this rolling stock will. The ORR will manage this risk regardless, when the vehicles are finally put through scrutiny.
The 101s were still running to Blaenau in 2001, as seen here. And come to think of it, top-and-tail railtours to Blaenau may have redundant motive power, but they don't have any end-doors available.

I accept that risk assessments change, but don't feel that the risk at Blaenau Tunnel is comparable to that of the Mersey Tunnel or the London Underground. Plus, they've stopped sending nuclear traffic through now...

I don't think Pacers have ever been used (they'd get stuck on the curves) but North West Class 150/1s have certainly been used, and they don't have an end door either. Pacers would actually be ideal for the line if it wasn't for that factor, particularly with the low step which is good for low platforms (though most if not all have now I think been raised either properly or by way of a Harrington hump).
I can't find any any evidence to back up my recollection of Pacers being trialled on the line, but Penmorfa has photos of the LEV1 railbus at Betws y Coed.
 
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konstant

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The 101s were still running to Blaenau in 2001, as seen here. And come to think of it, top-and-tail railtours to Blaenau may have redundant motive power, but they don't have any end-doors available.

As earlier, whilst I accept your point, the passage of specials, rail-tours, OOC runs and engineering services will have no impact on the scrutiny of a vehicle being planned for use on a continued basis. Plenty of vehicles have passed through which don't satisfy the requirements for end evacuation, but this is fine - because they simply didn't need to satisfy the requirements.

The Class 230 has not yet been measured against these, but will be.
 

krus_aragon

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Can you clarify for me konstant, are you stating that there would now be an issue with the continued/long-term use of any non-end-door stock through the Blaenau tunnel (possibly including a 150/1 or 221 that has operated there previously), or that the Class 230 would not be allowed to operate through the tunnel at all, because as a new design it would need to pass a revised risk assessment? Or is it perhaps a combination of both?

Either way, the class 230 is only planned to be used there for a few years before moving to the Borderlands full time. If permission were denied for the Conwy Valley, it might be used elsewhere, say on Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers, instead. (Though it might not release a full 150 diagram for PRM modifications as intended.)
 

konstant

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Can you clarify for me konstant, are you stating that there would now be an issue with the continued/long-term use of any non-end-door stock through the Blaenau tunnel (possibly including a 150/1 or 221 that has operated there previously), or that the Class 230 would not be allowed to operate through the tunnel at all, because as a new design it would need to pass a revised risk assessment? Or is it perhaps a combination of both?

Either way, the class 230 is only planned to be used there for a few years before moving to the Borderlands full time. If permission were denied for the Conwy Valley, it might be used elsewhere, say on Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers, instead. (Though it might not release a full 150 diagram for PRM modifications as intended.)

The vehicles will require to undergo a formal assessment against various railway standards as part of their entry into service and in pursuit of the all important letter of authorisation from the regulator. One of the many standards of which the vehicles performance will be measured against is GM/RT2130. Clause 7.1.1 is where this headache, among others, may arise. The operator will need to demonstrate that the risk of evacuating the train in tunnels of restricted width such as those on the line in question is not impeded by the design of the vehicle. If it is, the vehicle will need to be modified to include end doors. This is not as easy as other people have suggested, infact it's probably one of the most significant changes that can be imagined on a vehicle of this type. The entire basis of the cab and its subsequent approvals, including all human factor considerations, let alone sighting distances, layout, and even the communication between a driver and second man which would need to be reviewed and inevitably changed. The structure, and substructure, plus the entire drivers desk, would need to be changed, and the process of review and arbitration with bodies such as ASLEF would start again. This is a process which takes years typically, which would cause rather a delay to a vehicle due to enter into service two months ago.

A 150, 221, or anything else for that matter already cleared for operation on this route would not be affected by this decision. Those vehicles have or have had clearance in the past and that's all they need. For instance, a 150 may have operated on the route in the past, and didn't have a PRM compliant toilet, but that's no excuse at all to justify not fitting a PRM compliant toilet to the Class 230.

The argument that it's only going to be there for a few years or months before moving is irrelevant. If one of the units catch fire again, inside a tunnel, on day one, this argument and the persons whom authorised it might find it difficult in a court of law to defend their approach.

The current version of GM/RT2130 is Issue 4, which was issued in December 2013. Other vehicles which when new predate this date, will have had to conform to a different version or standard altogether, which makes any comparison of the Class 230 against any other fleets authorisation or ability to operate on this route irrelevant in the eyes of the regulatory bodies which will be asked to provide their view on this vehicle.

I would like to place my flag in the ground now and state that I am a fan of the Class 230 project and wish Vivarail every success with what is fast becoming a ground breaking project with unusually strong environmental credentials. I will not however let this cloud my judgement on a manufacturer making a deliberate attempt to bypass the process for introducing a new vehicle onto the railway network. These rules are for a reason, one only has to read Red for Danger to understand why we develop and change rules on the railway.
 
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krus_aragon

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Thank you for the clarification. I can see that you're making your case in clear good faith.

If such an assessment concluded that evacuation in tunnels was problematic, would it result in the 230 restricted from lines with such tunnels, or witholding permission for the 230 to be used in passenger service on any line?

My argument that the 230 isn't due to be used on the Conwy Valley for long wasn't meant as a case for "letting it off" for short-term use, rather that it would be less inconvenient for TfW to change their plans than if they had intended to use it there on a permanent basis.
 

konstant

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If such an assessment concluded that evacuation in tunnels was problematic, would it result in the 230 restricted from lines with such tunnels, or witholding permission for the 230 to be used in passenger service on any line?

In principle, it would almost certainly be OK without end doors in general, I can't think of any reasonable reason to hold back authorisation purely due to lack of end evacuation. However it's unlikely it would receive clearance for such a line as the one in question without a detailed RA being undertaken. The HAZID process would likely identify the issue of clearances on this line, then testing would likely need to be undertaken to close out this risk ALARP. Hopefully during this testing the vehicle would be able to demonstrate evacuation in accordance with the requirements of GM/RT2130. It's only at this point that we would understand then whether the vehicle did or didn't need end doors, and if it became clear the vehicle needed them to safely operate on this line, then we'd have an issue. The likely outcomes of which would be adjustment to the vehicle or no clearance for the vehicle to operate on this route.
 

MarkyT

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There was a similar issue with lack of end evacuation doors when the Hitachi class 395 trains were introduced on classic south eastern routes in Kent, particularly the twin single bore Shakespeare Cliff tunnel near Dover. There were various ideas looked at including diverting Dover trains via a new connection at Canterbury, but the solution settled on eventually was a minor track realignment through the bores to get sufficient clearance on one side of the train for evacuation to take place through the normal passenger side doors. Of course that required the bores to be wide enough to allow the realignment and I don't know if that is the case in the Welsh example.
 

6Gtraincrew

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There was a similar issue with lack of end evacuation doors when the Hitachi class 395 trains were introduced on classic south eastern routes in Kent, particularly the twin single bore Shakespeare Cliff tunnel near Dover. There were various ideas looked at including diverting Dover trains via a new connection at Canterbury, but the solution settled on eventually was a minor track realignment through the bores to get sufficient clearance on one side of the train for evacuation to take place through the normal passenger side doors. Of course that required the bores to be wide enough to allow the realignment and I don't know if that is the case in the Welsh example.

With the tunnel in question being 2 miles 333 yards long, I can't see that happening
 

61653 HTAFC

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Could someone please clarify the following acronyms, as per the forum rules?

ALARP/ALAP (not sure if the second was a typo of the first)
HAZID

Cheers.
 

swt_passenger

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Could someone please clarify the following acronyms, as per the forum rules?

ALARP/ALAP (not sure if the second was a typo of the first)
HAZID

Cheers.
ALARP - As low as reasonably practicable.
HAZID - Hazard identification.
Also there’s RA - Risk assesment.
 

jimm

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Perhaps TfW broached the subject of emergency access in the tunnel before placing its order...

IETs are rather deficient in the doors in the end of the trains stakes as well, yet they are authorised for use through Ledbury tunnel - which is about as tight as tunnel bores come in this country.

230004 is closing in on its new home now - passed MK Central 29 minutes ahead of the booked time.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91548/2019/02/07/advanced
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps TfW broached the subject of emergency access in the tunnel before placing its order...

IETs are rather deficient in the doors in the end of the trains stakes as well, yet they are authorised for use through Ledbury tunnel - which is about as tight as tunnel bores come in this country.

230004 is closing in on its new home now - passed MK Central 29 minutes ahead of the booked time.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91548/2019/02/07/advanced

Arrived at 1843. Was it loco-hauled as the RTT link implies or did it run under its own power?
 

bastien

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Perhaps TfW broached the subject of emergency access in the tunnel before placing its order...

IETs are rather deficient in the doors in the end of the trains stakes as well, yet they are authorised for use through Ledbury tunnel - which is about as tight as tunnel bores come in this country.

230004 is closing in on its new home now - passed MK Central 29 minutes ahead of the booked time.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91548/2019/02/07/advanced
Of course what the 150, 800, 395 and 230 all have in common are sliding pocket doors, as opposed to any swinging plug or slam affairs. I'm sure the 101s had at least a couple of inward-opening guard's doors. You're right - it's almost as though they thought this stuff through, isn't it?
 

MarkyT

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With the tunnel in question being 2 miles 333 yards long, I can't see that happening
The length of the tunnel would not affect the technical feasibility of moving the track slightly to one side of the tunnel, but would impact the cost of doing that. I found a cross section drawing which if this is typical throughout suggests there may be space to shift the rails across slightly, with a total width of about 16ft available, and vertical sides right down to floor level rather than the narrowing seen in many old tunnels.
https://www.mediastorehouse.com/net...ed-ffestiniog-extension-section-10585758.html
 
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