Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Failed Unit]

Flawed rational surely. Test should not be whether they are equivalent or better than 30 year old units they are replacing but whether they match or exceed current benchmarks. Just cus my 10 year old micra hasnt got any cup holders doesnt mean I dont expect to find them in any new car I am looking at today.

Agree. The amount of time you have people on here saying the trains they replaced didn’t have......

Why do people think the only standards we should accept are lower? Comfortable seats seams to be a dirty word. But in terms of comfortable trains the only improvement we have is air conditioning. This applies to most modes of public transport as airlines are involved in their own race to the bottom.

 

[Aictos]

That is subject to opinion of course. Glad you never mentioned in comfort. .

But still very disappointed with their high failure rates.

Still if you look at history, the Class 458s when introduced in 2004 had such high failure rates that the TOC in this case South West Trains was seriously considering returning them to the ROSCO in this case Porterbrook however 8 years on in 2012, the fleet had became the first to achieve a 6-figure rating and an average of 106k miles between failures winning a Modern Railways Golden Spanner award in the New Generation EMU category on 23 November 2012.

When you look at the Class 700s, yes the failure rates are not at a acceptable level but still I think they will end up being one of if not the most reliable fleet in the GTR network if history has anything to teach us.

 

[Failed Unit]

Still if you look at history, the Class 458s when introduced in 2004 had such high failure rates that the TOC in this case South West Trains was seriously considering returning them to the ROSCO in this case Porterbrook however 8 years on in 2012, the fleet had became the first to achieve a 6-figure rating and an average of 106k miles between failures winning a Modern Railways Golden Spanner award in the New Generation EMU category on 23 November 2012.

When you look at the Class 700s, yes the failure rates are not at a acceptable level but still I think they will end up being one of if not the most reliable fleet in the GTR network if history has anything to teach us.

You keep saying this. I have no doubt the 700s will improve reliability. But this is small comfort to us that suffer daily disruption because of their high failure rate. When will they improve? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? It is fine promising jam tomorrow. But at the moment we are paying more for a worse service than we had this time last year on all kpi.

Great northern had another disrupted morning peak because of one of these breaking down again. Strange people are so keen to get rid of the more reliable and comfortable 313s. But I guess they should be careful what they wish for when the reliability takes another dip.

 

[Aictos]

You keep saying this. I have no doubt the 700s will improve reliability. But this is small comfort to us that suffer daily disruption because of their high failure rate. When will they improve? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? It is fine promising jam tomorrow. But at the moment we are paying more for a worse service than we had this time last year on all kpi.

Great northern had another disrupted morning peak because of one of these breaking down again. Strange people are so keen to get rid of the more reliable and comfortable 313s. But I guess they should be careful what they wish for when the reliability takes another dip.

I keep saying this because it will get better, as to the 313s well they're are well past their prime and should have been retired over 10 years ago but for various reasons have soldier on even though they deserved retirement.

Not that I have anything against the Class 313 fleet, personally the Class 313/1 fleet from London Overground with it's seating was far better then First Capital Connect's Class 313/0s fleet and as to the refurb that Southern did on their fleet managed to put the GN to shame but neverless they are past their prime and we need to move on with their replacements.

I see there was no mention of the other reason why TL services was delayed today and that wasn't due to the Class 700s but due to some poor person losing their life at Finsbury Park.

 

[Bald Rick]

Great northern had another disrupted morning peak because of one of these breaking down again. Strange people are so keen to get rid of the more reliable and comfortable 313s. But I guess they should be careful what they wish for when the reliability takes another dip.

On the comfort point, I was on a 313 today, and in my opinion the 700s are far, far more comfortable.

 

[Aictos]

On the comfort point, I was on a 313 today, and in my opinion the 700s are far, far more comfortable.

Each to their own but the fact of the fault was due to a brake fault which could have happened to ANY train but as it just happened to be a Class 700 people make a big deal out of it.

I like the 700s when I use them as they're far more spacious, have a decent CIS system and the accelerating rate leaves even the Class 380s themselves no slouchs standing.

 

[MatthewRead]

Still if you look at history, the Class 458s when introduced in 2004 had such high failure rates that the TOC in this case South West Trains was seriously considering returning them to the ROSCO in this case Porterbrook however 8 years on in 2012, the fleet had became the first to achieve a 6-figure rating and an average of 106k miles between failures winning a Modern Railways Golden Spanner award in the New Generation EMU category on 23 November 2012.

When you look at the Class 700s, yes the failure rates are not at a acceptable level but still I think they will end up being one of if not the most reliable fleet in the GTR network if history has anything to teach us.

The class 458's are much older than that the first one entered service on the 25th February 2000.

 

[swt_passenger]

The class 458's are much older than that the first one entered service on the 25th February 2000.

You have to look at when the whole class entered normal service. Their introduction, by any reasonable comparison, was a complete disaster. By 2006 they were effectively out of normal use.

 

[Railperf]

Each to their own but the fact of the fault was due to a brake fault which could have happened to ANY train but as it just happened to be a Class 700 people make a big deal out of it.

I like the 700s when I use them as they're far more spacious, have a decent CIS system and the accelerating rate leaves even the Class 380s themselves no slouchs standing.

I travelled on 700s between Finsbury Park and Cambridge yesterday. No problems to report. In fact none of the 700s I have ever travelled on suffered a fault. Acceleration is outstandingly fast - 345s are even faster - ..but drivers are much more cautious on the brake than older 365s and the 317s. The interiors are bright and clesn - and my bum has no complaints after the hour or so journey.

 

[Aictos]

You have to look at when the whole class entered normal service. Their introduction, by any reasonable comparison, was a complete disaster. By 2006 they were effectively out of normal use.

Indeed which is why I did say that by 2004, SWT was leaning towards returning the entire fleet back to the ROSCO and replacing them with the Siemens alternative.

By 2012 however they became very reliable as evidence by the awards the fleet won which I also pointed out above.

I travelled on 700s between Finsbury Park and Cambridge yesterday. No problems to report. In fact none of the 700s I have ever travelled on suffered a fault. Acceleration is outstandingly fast - 345s are even faster - ..but drivers are much more cautious on the brake than older 365s and the 317s. The interiors are bright and clesn - and my bum has no complaints after the hour or so journey.

I've yet to travel on a Class 700 that's failed in service not to say they don't fail as any train can fail in service but yes acceleration is quite fast maybe faster then the Class 380s (I don't know for sure) but when they first entered service they departed stations far faster then the Class 322s did at that point.

 

[GoatSarah]

Acceleration is outstandingly fast - 345s are even faster

The 700s are great on OHLE. They feel much weedier on DC when they're doing their flying saucer noise.

 

[Failed Unit]

Each to their own but the fact of the fault was due to a brake fault which could have happened to ANY train but as it just happened to be a Class 700 people make a big deal out of it.

.

But it wasn’t. It was a class 700. The least reliable train on GTR. But if you read this very thread. Many posts from people claiming the 700s have so much redundancy they will never fail.

As for the CIS. You dont use them often but had many journeys recently on out of service trains. (According to CIS)

 

[Railperf]

The 700s are great on OHLE. They feel much weedier on DC when they're doing their flying saucer noise.

Very true. At the risk of upsetting 750v DC rail enthusiasts ..700s on DC are as toothless as a Class 800 on diesel. Promising acceleration at low speeds - then run out of puff. But that is the same for any DC variant of any modern EMU.
This is due to the limited power available on 3rd rail supply and not the train.

 

[Aictos]

But it wasn’t. It was a class 700. The least reliable train on GTR. But if you read this very thread. Many posts from people claiming the 700s have so much redundancy they will never fail.

I though have never said that the Class 700s will never fail, what I did say though in my post above is that train faults can happen to any train regardless of type that is a fact of life.

It is just unfortunate that the train in question this time was a Class 700, my view still stands though.

As for the CIS. You dont use them often but had many journeys recently on out of service trains. (According to CIS)

This doesn't make any grammar sense at all, can you please clarify exactly what you mean by this?

 

[thewaistcoat]

The 700s are great on OHLE. They feel much weedier on DC when they're doing their flying saucer noise.

Flying saucer noise - great description.
I use the 700s on both Great Northern and through the core to Blackfriars. Bit of a shock the first time you venture into 3rd rail territory...

 

[GoatSarah]

Bit of a shock the first time you venture into 3rd rail territory

Indeed. They’re like different, and althogether noisier and more gutless trains.

 

[Railperf]

Indeed. They’re like different, and althogether noisier and more gutless trains.

The 'flying saucer' sound was not a shock to those of us who have travelled aboard Class 350 and 360s regularly. But i didn't expect a different traction sound in AC.
In terms of performance, from rest to two miles a Ckass 700 powered under 25KV AC covers the distance in under 2 mins having reached 100mph. On DC it takes 20 secs longer having only reached 65mph!!. The AC performance was measured on an uphill 1 in 200 gradient. On DC it was also uphill but a shallower 1 in 264. Huge difference. The start from 0 to 30mph is almost identical.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 'flying saucer' sound was not a shock to those of us who have travelled aboard Class 350 and 360s regularly. But i didn't expect a different traction sound in AC...

It’s to do with interference prevention with respect to trackside equipment such as track circuits, the traction converters are set up to operate at different discrete switching frequencies, dependent on whether operating in DC or AC areas. Generally there are DC track circuits in AC areas, and AC in DC areas. Obviously you only hear audible frequencies. Has been mentioned many times before.

 

[GoatSarah]

It’s to do with interference prevention with respect to trackside equipment such as track circuits, the traction converters are set up to operate at different discrete switching frequencies, dependent on whether operating in DC or AC areas. Generally there are DC track circuits in AC areas, and AC in DC areas. Obviously you only hear audible frequencies. Has been mentioned many times before.

Like soldiers breaking step to march over a bridge? Interesting! Thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Like soldiers breaking step to march over a bridge? Interesting! Thanks.

A bit like that, and in both the areas chosen settings will have to deal with a whole range of lineside equipments of different generations, eg conventional track circuits, jointless track circuits, axle counter areas, and a wide range of telecoms equipment. Electrically it’s all very noisy...

 

[hwl]

It’s to do with interference prevention with respect to trackside equipment such as track circuits, the traction converters are set up to operate at different discrete switching frequencies, dependent on whether operating in DC or AC areas. Generally there are DC track circuits in AC areas, and AC in DC areas. Obviously you only hear audible frequencies. Has been mentioned many times before.

The switching frequencies with IGBT are typically 900Hz (switching frequencies for older GTO were much lower and were a problem) which is way higher than traditional track circuit frequencies but actually powering the motors at certain speeds (rpms) is an issue e.g. the field can't be around multiples of 50Hz (typical track circuit frequency) e.g. the motor is only actively powered a suitable gap either side 50Hz (e.g. 750rm 4pole) which is the quiet gap in motor noise at certain speeds. e.g. assuming a gap of 10Hz either side of a problem frequency --> 0-15Hz 35-40Hz 40-90Hz 110-140Hz

The new track circuits at about 4.5KHz and much simpler as regards impedance bonds too.

 

[spark001uk]

Talking of sounds, has anyone else noticed the change in the core lately? I travel TL frequently, and the last few weeks I've noticed a new sound. Particularly at pancras it's noticeable. You get the usual high pitched ac whistle when they depart, but now there's a whirring sound, starting low and getting higher as they gather speed, sounds almost like an air raid siren winding up. What's causing that all of a sudden?

 

[swt_passenger]

Talking of sounds, has anyone else noticed the change in the core lately? I travel TL frequently, and the last few weeks I've noticed a new sound. Particularly at pancras it's noticeable. You get the usual high pitched ac whistle when they depart, but now there's a whirring sound, starting low and getting higher as they gather speed, sounds almost like an air raid siren winding up. What's causing that all of a sudden?

Rail grinding was suggested a few days ago:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-700-motor-noise.179630/#post-3920015

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep the rails were ground from St P to the Clerkenwell crossovers the weekend before last.

 

[387star]

No sign of wifi being fitted to the bulk of the fleet despite even 313s now getting it

 

[387star]

The 'flying saucer' sound was not a shock to those of us who have travelled aboard Class 350 and 360s regularly. But i didn't expect a different traction sound in AC.
In terms of performance, from rest to two miles a Ckass 700 powered under 25KV AC covers the distance in under 2 mins having reached 100mph. On DC it takes 20 secs longer having only reached 65mph!!. The AC performance was measured on an uphill 1 in 200 gradient. On DC it was also uphill but a shallower 1 in 264. Huge difference. The start from 0 to 30mph is almost identical.

Once clear of the 30 points on to the down fast leaving finsbury park it's take off time

 

[jon0844]

No sign of wifi being fitted to the bulk of the fleet despite even 313s now getting it

Southern 313s might be, but the GN ones haven't and won't be.

 

[Bald Rick]

No sign of wifi being fitted to the bulk of the fleet despite even 313s now getting it

That’s because it’s not happening, as discussed upthread.

 

[notverydeep]

GN seem to be having some availability issues with 700/0s. Yesterday and Today the following have been 1 x 4 car class 365 vice 700/0:

2C80 0525 London Kings Cross to Cambridge
2C13 0727 Cambridge to London Kings Cross
2Y10 0906 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City

These being 365530 yesterday and 365534 today. Thankfully, 365506 and 365508 (both days) on 1R11 0812 Baldock to London Kings Cross, have enabled me to avoid the crush / being left behind and instead still get a seat with little extra journey time from Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross via Welwyn North...

 

[jon0844]

Three 700s have had glass smashed. Now it seems a 387 has had damage too. At least some reported as vandalism. Trains hit with grafitti too.

The 4 car 365 is apparently standing in for a 700 that had the cab windscreen broken.