ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

Just 41001 - the prototype power car owned by the 125Group.

All others are either MTU or Paxman VP185s.

To be clear, 41001 is owned by the NRM, but restored, maintained and operated by 125 Group.

 

[hexagon789]

To be clear, 41001 is owned by the NRM.

Sorry; is it simply kept in good order by the 125 Group then?

 

[43096]

Sorry; is it simply kept in good order by the 125 Group then?

Just changed my original reply above to make it clearer.

 

[MrBurnz]

Najab & hexagon789, Thank you both for answering. You learn something new everyday.

 

[hexagon789]

Just changed my original reply above to make it clearer.

Thanks

 

[jingsmonty]

I appreciate that this is slightly off topic, but, I am curious to know, are there any power cars left with valenta engines?...or have they all now been re-engined with MTU's?

All production HST power cars have either the MTU engine, or a Paxman VP185 (East Midlands Trains). The only Valenta engined power car is the prototype power car restored & operated by the 125group.

I helieve the last mainline valenta was 43123, operated by Grand Central (now by EMT), re-engined in 2010 (& renumbered as 43423).

 

[jingsmonty]

Sorry; is it simply kept in good order by the 125 Group then?

No, the 125 group restored it from a static exhibit to full working order (not as a mainline loco, just as a heritage railway loco). They did one hell of a job on it & a huge amount of work!

I'm a member of the 125 group & I read the updates of the work carried out. They've also restored some Mk3 loco hauled coaches to work with it (41001 uses a standard loco ETH, as far as I know, not the 415v 3phase AC ETS used by production HSTs). Huge amount of work, carried out by dedicated volunteers.

41001 still sounds great - I heard that valenta scream when it visited the Bo'ness & Kinniel railway a few years ago..

 

[hexagon789]

No, the 125 group restored it from a static exhibit to full working order (not as a mainline loco, just as a heritage railway loco). They did one hell of a job on it & a huge amount of work!

I'm a member of the 125 group & I read the updates of the work carried out. They've also restored some Mk3 loco hauled coaches to work with it (41001 uses a standard loco ETH, as far as I know, not the 415v 3phase AC ETS used by production HSTs). Huge amount of work, carried out by dedicated volunteers.

41001 still sounds great - I heard that valenta scream when it visited the Bo'ness & Kinniel railway a few years ago..

I meant currently, I knew they'd restored it but somehow I also, erroneously, thought the 125 Group owned it.

Anyway, that's for clearing it all up.

 

[anamyd]

Just 41001 - the prototype power car owned by the 125Group.

All others are either MTU or Paxman VP185s.

EMT ones are mostly VP185s but a few MTUs. All others are MTUs.

 

[BRX]

The 125 group has a few of the removed valenta engines in storage I believe, ready to be re-installed in some power cars when they are finally retired into preservation. If they manage to get a full set restored to original-ish condition and able to run on the mainline that would be great and I'm sure pretty popular. No small task though.

 

[hexagon789]

All others are either MTU or Paxman VP185s.

EMT ones are mostly VP185s but a few MTUs. All others are MTUs.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it that the buffer-fitted ex-GC ones are MTU, their others VP185?

 

[mcmad]

Is that since the 2016 upgrade?

And in that case is it 50mph straight out of 2, 3 and 4 then?

Not according to the sectional appendix, changes to 50 at the tunnel portal. 20 out of P1 and 25 out of P2-7.

Think Scotrail driver needs a route refresh

 

[hexagon789]

Not according to the sectional appendix, changes to 50 at the tunnel portal. 20 out of P1 and 25 out of P2-7.

Think Scotrail driver needs a route refresh

Thanks, I know it used to be 15 all lines and then 50 at the tunnel.

 

[jingsmonty]

EMT ones are mostly VP185s but a few MTUs. All others are MTUs.

Isn't it that the buffer-fitted ex-GC ones are MTU, their others VP185?[/QUOTE]

You're exactly right - the ex GC buffered ones at EMT are MTU engined, rest are VP185. The rail geek in me kind of wishes Scotrail had VP185 power cars - they sound fairly similar to Valentas (a heavily modified version of one).

 

[jingsmonty]

The 125 group has a few of the removed valenta engines in storage I believe, ready to be re-installed in some power cars when they are finally retired into preservation. If they manage to get a full set restored to original-ish condition and able to run on the mainline that would be great and I'm sure pretty popular. No small task though.

I'm sure that's the long term aim, I believe. I don't think it will be that long before some redundant power cars/coaches become available? I also think that a charter train company may run an HST or 2..

I'd like to think thay other TOCs would do what Scotrail/GWR & XC are doing & refurbishing them - unfortunately, the programme won't have inspired much confidence in this, hopefully this will change. I think Kilmarnock are about to start work on the coaches?

 

[hexagon789]

Isn't it that the buffer-fitted ex-GC ones are MTU, their others VP185?

You're exactly right - the ex GC buffered ones at EMT are MTU engined, rest are VP185. The rail geek in me kind of wishes Scotrail had VP185 power cars - they sound fairly similar to Valentas (a heavily modified version of one).[/QUOTE]

You're not alone, they have a lovely throaty rumble

ScotRail should've got them instead!

 

[deltic08]

The whole point of having the two power cars (as designed) was because one couldn't fully power the train to specs, even with a Valenta (at the time) in it - the most powerful engine they could find wasn't quite enough so they used two.

The whole point of having two power cars was axle load so they had less weight and therefore less wear on the track for travelling at 125mph.

 

[chuff chuff]

One for highland spring perhaps,saw a 47 and 37 in at haymarket depot (god that took me back) late morning then saw them again heading off down the sub around one but couldn't see what was between them.

 

[deltic08]

If you watch the Channel 5 documentary on the 'InterCity 125', it makes exactly this point. A traditional diesel loco was just too heavy to go much above 100mph - bigger engine = more weight. A Deltic probably pushed the limits at the time, before HST was devised. Only other inspiration I can think of would be the Blue Pullman.

An HST is RA5 (same as a Class 37) which means (technically) it would be cleared to travel on the Far North, Kyle & West Highland lines! I believe the Network Rail 'flying banana' HST NMT has been up the WHL already..

Like I said, a truly great design...that's why it's still viable for Scotrail

HST power cars produce 2200 hp on four axles weighing 70 tons. 17.5 tons axle load. Deltics produced 3300 hp on six axles weighing 99 tons. 16.5 tons axle load, so wherever an HST can go, a Deltic could go.

It's only 15mph on the way in. Leaving platform 2,3 or 4 you can open it right up and shoot out the station. 5,6 and 7 are restricted by the crossover in the tunnel. 1is 25mph as it's a tight bend.

scotraildriver was quoting entry speeds to Queens St not exit speeds. There are lower as it is a terminus.

 

[Highland37]

Out of interest, what happened to the Valenta engines that came out of HSTs?

 

[nat67]

Out of interest, what happened to the Valenta engines that came out of HSTs?

It was posted above but I will tell you anyway. Some went to the 125 group and the rest either scrapped or in private hands.

 

[mcmad]

It's only 15mph on the way in. Leaving platform 2,3 or 4 you can open it right up and shoot out the station. 5,6 and 7 are restricted by the crossover in the tunnel. 1is 25mph as it's a tight bend.

scotraildriver was quoting entry speeds to Queens St not exit speeds. There are lower as it is a terminus.

No, he refers to both entry (15mph) and exit (open it right up and shoot out the station).

He is incorrect about the exit speeds, can't remember off the top of my head what the entry speeds are but 15 sounds about right.

 

[hexagon789]

HST power cars produce 2200 hp on four axles weighing 70 tons. 17.5 tons axle load. Deltics produced 3300 hp on six axles weighing 99 tons. 16.5 tons axle load, so wherever an HST can go, a Deltic could go.

Yes, but a Deltic can't stop from 125mph in 1,930yds!

No, he refers to both entry (15mph) and exit (open it right up and shoot out the station).

He is incorrect about the exit speeds, can't remember off the top of my head what the entry speeds are but 15 sounds about right.

As stated above, 20mph out of 1 and 25 out of 2-7:

 

[mcmad]

Yes, it was me who posted the 20/25 exit until tunnel mouth

 

[deltic08]

No, he refers to both entry (15mph) and exit (open it right up and shoot out the station).

He is incorrect about the exit speeds, can't remember off the top of my head what the entry speeds are but 15 sounds about right.

I should have said 15mph was the entry speed he quoted. Exit was 25mph from some platforms until the tunnel portal then 50mph. Sounds about right.

 

[43096]

Out of interest, what happened to the Valenta engines that came out of HSTs?

Most went for scrap, some with 125 Group, one to the NRM (now in 41001), one to the Anson Engine Museum and a handful sold on for further use/spares.

 

[jingsmonty]

And probably much smoother for the passengers; I remember you'd get a nasty kick from the rear power car when it's wet a lot of the time on longer ECML sets.

I imagine it also saves fuel, though you may have a DAS to tell you when to coast?

You can get a fair kick from the Scotrail 4+2 sets if it's damp too! Good thing is, with the lighter load, you can accelerate reasonably quickly on a lower power notch, although. I've not had the experience of driving them during the worst of the autumn leaf fall season yet. We'll see this year what that's like.....

 

[jingsmonty]

Yes, but a Deltic can't stop from 125mph in 1,930yds!



As stated above, 20mph out of 1 and 25 out of 2-7:
View attachment 61077

A Deltic was/is a fine loco (I occasionally passed RSG moving class 334s to Kilmarnock when I worked in Strathclyde) & you're spot on in saying that they have a good route availability.

But, an HST as a set has 4500hp (between the 2 power cars), so there's no way a Deltic could compete on performance.

I never saw a Deltic run as a mainline passenger loco (I was only 10 back in 1982!), but, whilst some people thought HSTs were 'bland & faceless', I think they are every bit a characterful. Now HSTs days are numbered on the long distance routes, I totally 'get' how the Deltic fans feel!

 

[Highlandspring]

You can get a fair kick from the Scotrail 4+2 sets if it's damp too!

On a completely unrelated note I’m intrigued how ScotRail has latched on to calling the sets x+2 while the rest of the world refers to formations as 2+x. In the same way the sets are invariably referred to as units in the Control Log; they also very rarely use powercar numbers or even the word ‘powercar’ but write nonsense like “Driver reports unit HA03 has low power and fluctuating amps”. Or asking to run back to back powercars under a class 5 headcode... or seemingly no one realising until recently that if you leave a set stabled with both the powercars shut down eventually the air drops and the doors unlock, then treating it as a wrong side door failure... In my opinion the introduction has exposed a wee bit of a lack of experience and understanding of what you might call ‘real’ trains in some areas of the company.

 

[najaB]

On a completely unrelated note I’m intrigued how ScotRail has latched on to calling the setx x+2 while the rest of the world refers to formations as 2+x.

I've seen both in the past.