ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

Indeed, the only reason I can think of why they decided against it was cost.

Given that the first production Mark 3s were the loco hauled variety, which were required to work with Mark 1 and Mark 2 vehicles, then I would suggest backwards compatibility was an issue as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Irish Mk3s were fitted with electric plug-doors from new, which proves it was very doable.

As were the Wessies, which were everything the Mk3 coach should have been - power doors, retention bogs (I think), manual rather than automatic vestibule doors so no banging back and forth, better lighting, better seating, better layout, "snug"....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the first production Mark 3s were the loco hauled variety, which were required to work with Mark 1 and Mark 2 vehicles, then I would suggest backwards compatibility was an issue as well.

I'm sure something could have been made to work, perhaps based on the UIC standard system of "door blocking" above 5km/h and timed autoclosers.

 

[hexagon789]

Given that the first production Mark 3s were the loco hauled variety, which were required to work with Mark 1 and Mark 2 vehicles, then I would suggest backwards compatibility was an issue as well.

Possibly, but it works on the continent and I don't think it would've been too difficult to rig-up a compatible system.

As were the Wessies, which were everything the Mk3 coach should have been - power doors, retention bogs (I think), manual rather than automatic vestibule doors so no banging back and forth, better lighting, better seating, better layout, "snug"....

True, but I guess that's what 16 years progress from the prototype delivered in a way.

I'm sure something could have been made to work, perhaps based on the UIC standard system of "door blocking" above 5km/h and timed autoclosers.

Didn't BR try autoclosers on something? Possibly the XP64 coaches?

 

[David M]

Just noticed two foreign women miss their stop because they didn’t know how to open the doors on the Classic.
As the tourist season gets into full swing I can see this becoming a bit of an issue.

Why didn't you assist them?

 

[FtoE]

They went to the exit behind me. I only realised their problem when the train had moved off and I heard them talking to the guard who was explaining how to them how to operate the door.
It wasn’t too much of a disaster as at the next stop (about 10 minutes away) the train crosses with a North-bound service.
A brief panic then a 20-minute-or-so inconvenience I suppose. Had it been an irregularly used stop it would have been worse.
Incidently, more than once, I’ve had to help people open the doors of the Highland Chieftan. Some of them of my vintage - clearly not regular train-users in their youth!

 

[VioletEclipse]

While they may not be practical, I absolutely love the slam doors on the Mk3 carriages, so I personally am glad that they were built that way.

 

[Bassman]

May I ask for any comment on diesel emissions of these high speed trains, in stations.
I cannot see it discussed, but it surely is another area of consideration or concerns for enclosed stations like Glasgow Queen Street etc.
I know we are used to emissions in the past, but has anyone tested the air quality and wondered about the continual running of diesel engines in enclosed spaces like Inverness.
While I think it is great to have these trains, surely there are more up to date concerns about those staff working prolonged periods and passengers in enclosed stations.
Regrettably these trains may be another short sighted response rather than one of future proofing a cleaner environment. Another reason to speed electrification to Perth and beyond.

 

[VioletEclipse]

May I ask for any comment on diesel emissions of these high speed trains, in stations.
I cannot see it discussed, but it surely is another area of consideration or concerns for enclosed stations like Glasgow Queen Street etc.
I know we are used to emissions in the past, but has anyone tested the air quality and wondered about the continual running of diesel engines in enclosed spaces like Inverness.
While I think it is great to have these trains, surely there are more up to date concerns about those staff working prolonged periods and passengers in enclosed stations.
Regrettably these trains may be another short sighted response rather than one of future proofing a cleaner environment. Another reason to speed electrification to Perth and beyond.

You speak my mind. Trains are (with very good reason) always considered a clean way of travelling, they are many times less harmful than each passenger driving or flying instead of taking the train. But diesel train emissions seem to have escaped notice, maybe people don't notice that there simply aren't electric trains in the Scottish highlands, or large parts of Wales. but diesel trains are a threat to the environment, and don't seem very regulated. I am sorry if this is a bit off topic. Continued use of HSTs is really good, making use of trains that were built to last 40 something years ago is so much better than scrapping them and building new ones, but their engines are far from clean, and that is definitely an issue that needs to be urgently addressed.

 

[hexagon789]

You speak my mind. Trains are (with very good reason) always considered a clean way of travelling, they are many times less harmful than each passenger driving or flying instead of taking the train. But diesel train emissions seem to have escaped notice, maybe people don't notice that there simply aren't electric trains in the Scottish highlands, or large parts of Wales. but diesel trains are a threat to the environment, and don't seem very regulated. I am sorry if this is a bit off topic. Continued use of HSTs is really good, making use of trains that were built to last 40 something years ago is so much better than scrapping them and building new ones, but their engines are far from clean, and that is definitely an issue that needs to be urgently addressed.

To be fair, the MTUs will be a lot cleaner than the original Valentas.

 

[VioletEclipse]

To be fair, the MTUs will be a lot cleaner than the original Valentas.

True, but they're still diesel. To think that the Valentas were belching out huge clouds of diesel fumes until just 10 years ago... MTUs are a lot cleaner although they do still pollute, and any amount of pollution is detrimental to the planet, but Scotrail don't seem to be doing anything about it right now.

 

[hexagon789]

True, but they're still diesel. To think that the Valentas were belching out huge clouds of diesel fumes until just 10 years ago... MTUs are a lot cleaner although they do still pollute, and any amount of pollution is detrimental to the planet, but Scotrail don't seem to be doing anything about it right now.

What can they do?

 

[mcmad]

The lack of shore supplies, particularly at Aberdeen and Inverness means the HST's are running 24/7 even when parked up for the night which seems madness. Perhaps another aspect of the poor project management of this project from Scotrail management.

 

[connormill]

What can they do?

Short of electrification or huge advancements in Battery tech, very little

 

[hexagon789]

Short of electrification or huge advancements in Battery tech, very little

Exactly, little for them to do in the short term. About the best might be adopting more stringent eco-driving policies but that's probably it until electrification.

 

[mcmad]

What can they do?

Fit shore supplies at depots and terminus and then implement a shutdown policy if standing for x minutes, say more than 10?

Medium term has to be bimodes and further electrification

 

[hexagon789]

Fit shore supplies at depots and terminus and then implement a shutdown policy if standing for x minutes, say more than 10?

Medium term has to be bimodes and further electrification

I believe shutting down an MTU fully and then restarting it results in an engine hours penalty of some kind which they might want to avoid.

 

[connormill]

Medium term has to be bimodes and further electrification

Does it look likely that a Hybrid train may come along any time soon.

By that I mean travels between stations on Diesel, but charges large batteries at the same time, so in stations they can run on stored Electric?

 

[43096]

I believe shutting down an MTU fully and then restarting it results in an engine hours penalty of some kind which they might want to avoid.

It's a cold start that incurs a penalty of 100hrs on the MDEC. It does take a while for the engine to cool down to the level that makes it a cold start.

 

[hexagon789]

It's a cold start that incurs a penalty of 100hrs on the MDEC. It does take a while for the engine to cool down to the level that makes it a cold start.

That is what I was thinking of.

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely on the pure point of pollution in enclosed stations, I would assume there is some form of air handling / plan once the station is refurbished, presumably the unions would be (rightly) all over it if staff had high levels of exposure to emissions and particulates and this was ignored ?

I suppose longer term, we talk about fitting Diesel engines to broadly electric stock beyond the wires. Is it conceivable someone will come up with some method of providing electric traction to a primarily diesel train ? As much as widespread electrification is clearly an environmental goal for most people, in practical terms it feels like a while before the OHLE engineers arrive in Kyle of Lochalsh ...

 

[adrock1976]

It's a cold start that incurs a penalty of 100hrs on the MDEC. It does take a while for the engine to cool down to the level that makes it a cold start.

Managing Director of East Coast?

If not, could you explain the bolded bit please?

I believe it is a long standing forum policy not to use abbreviations, acronyms, or jargon without first saying what they mean.

 

[mcmad]

I believe shutting down an MTU fully and then restarting it results in an engine hours penalty of some kind which they might want to avoid.

Thats the point of shore supplies as it avoids the penalty as the engine is kept warm without polluting the surrounding environment. From speaking to someone involved in the refurbishment at Aberdeen station the guys on the roof are being smoked out at night by idling HST's

 

[43096]

Managing Director of East Coast?

If not, could you explain the bolded bit please?

I believe it is a long standing forum policy not to use abbreviations, acronyms, or jargon without first saying what they mean.

Pretty obviously not Managing Director of East Coast.

It's the engine management system.

Always referred to as the MDEC, think it stands for MTU Diesel Engine Control.

 

[Norther Monkey]

The lack of shore supplies, particularly at Aberdeen and Inverness means the HST's are running 24/7 even when parked up for the night which seems madness. Perhaps another aspect of the poor project management of this project from Scotrail management.

I'm sure LNER shut down their HSTs at Aberdeen - certainly the one at the buffers.

 

[hexagon789]

Thats the point of shore supplies as it avoids the penalty as the engine is kept warm without polluting the surrounding environment. From speaking to someone involved in the refurbishment at Aberdeen station the guys on the roof are being smoked out at night by idling HST's

Ah, I thought it was first providing ETS with the engines shut down. So that staff could clean the interiors without needing to run the engines for lighting and electrical power.

 

[43096]

Ah, I thought it was first providing ETS with the engines shut down. So that staff could clean the interiors without needing to run the engines for lighting and electrical power.

That is the primary function. Back in the days when HSTs had proper engines and didn't have a big girl's blouse of an engine that needs a hot water bottle, it was to provide ETS. It's just that the engine pre-heat on the MTU runs off the train supply.

PS You'll probably have the TLA police along in a minute complaining about use of 'ETS'.

 

[hexagon789]

That is the primary function. Back in the days when HSTs had proper engines and didn't have a big girl's blouse of an engine that needs a hot water bottle, it was to provide ETS. It's just that the engine pre-heat on the MTU runs off the train supply.

PS You'll probably have the TLA police along in a minute complaining about use of 'ETS'.

I'd have thought if any engine needed that it would've been the original not the newer one!

PS You'll probably have the TLA police along in a minute complaining about use of 'ETS'.

I really think this needs reviewed - surely some acronyms/abbreviations/railway terminology are acceptable through frequent use? Perhaps they can ask members to contribute to a forum glossary of terms?

 

[Highlandspring]

May I ask for any comment on diesel emissions of these high speed trains, in stations.
I cannot see it discussed, but it surely is another area of consideration or concerns for enclosed stations like Glasgow Queen Street etc.
I know we are used to emissions in the past, but has anyone tested the air quality and wondered about the continual running of diesel engines in enclosed spaces like Inverness.
While I think it is great to have these trains, surely there are more up to date concerns about those staff working prolonged periods and passengers in enclosed stations.
Regrettably these trains may be another short sighted response rather than one of future proofing a cleaner environment. Another reason to speed electrification to Perth and beyond.

Has this question been prompted by the very recent issue of the ScotRail Diesel Engine Emissions policy or is it coincidental?

 

[43096]

I'd have thought if any engine needed that it would've been the original not the newer one!

Had the Valenta had the same treatment as the MTU, rather than being used and abused as it was, then it would no doubt have been even more reliable.

I really think this needs reviewed - surely some acronyms/abbreviations/railway terminology are acceptable through frequent use? Perhaps they can ask members to contribute to a forum glossary of terms?

I posted this recently on another thread as it is totally inconsistent. As an example, 'HST' is apparently fine, but the three letter station codes (which are easily findable) aren't...