EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[edwin_m]

Well, maybe this is a good thing. By allowing themselves to be pushed into ever more insane positions, the brexiters are destroying their own project.

Is the UK more likely to be a fully integrated member of the EU in, say, 15 years' time, after a properly-thought-out-and-slowly-and-carefully-implemented brexit, or after a bat-s**t-crazy-destroy-everything-and-throw-ourselves-at-trump brexit?

I'd be quite content if the Brexiters destroyed their own project before 31 October, but not afterwards thank you very much. In the next 15 years I hope my son will have the opportunity to enjoy the freedoms of being a citizen of an outward looking and tolerant EU member. Not of an isolationist, deprived and probably proto-fascist state. And I hope to be happily retired by then too.

 

[DarloRich]

What were you expecting MPs to do on those 3 days? The magical Vote Of No Confidence? Install the Government Of National Unity? The People's Parliament? It's all nonsense and yes, people are heartily sick of it.

Now we are getting somewhere! This is because you don't like Parliament exercising it's sovereignty and holding the executive to account inst it? That is the job of our democratically elected parliament. It isnt their just to rubber stamp decisions of the executive. It is clear from your recent posts your knowledge of the purpose and function of Parliament is limited.

I also note you rather touchingly seem to think that the government will not try to cram the timetable between the Queens Speech and the 31st of October with guff to reduce further the opportunity of parliament to exercise it's scrutiny over government business.

I ask again: Why are you in favour of less debate and scrutiny over an issue of national importance?

 

[anme]

I'd be quite content if the Brexiters destroyed their own project before 31 October, but not afterwards thank you very much. In the next 15 years I hope my son will have the opportunity to enjoy the freedoms of being a citizen of an outward looking and tolerant EU member. Not of an isolationist, deprived and probably proto-fascist state. And I hope to be happily retired by then too.

Don't get me wrong. Leaving the EU is stupid and I hope it doesn't happen. But if it has to happen, it's good that it happens in the most disastrous way possible, forever destroying the credibility of the project and those involved with it, so we can return to the EU as quickly as possible.

 

[najaB]

There was talk of the suspension for conference season being reduced to allow MORE time for debate on Brexit but now you seem to support less time.

I'd expect a delay to party politics in order to sort out national politics, but apparently BoJo thinks otherwise.

 

[krus_aragon]

For anyone interested in some related reading, Canada had a similar crisis over a proroguement in 2008/2009. In that instance, the incumbent Conservative minority Government had just gained seats in an election, but failed to get a majority. Opposition parties wanted to hold a vote of no confidence in order to form their own minority Government, whereas the Conservatives wanted to prorogue Parliament until they could present a budget to the House, for it to be voted on. Some viewed the oppostition parties' actions as a coup, whereas others considered the idea of progroguing to avoid a no-confidence vote to be underhanded.

After much to-ing and fro-ing, the Governor General (on behalf of the Queen) granted the proroguement, with some conditions attached, namely a short prorogument and immediate presentation of the Budget, the vote on which would automotically be a vote of confidence.

In this example there was no looming deadline like the one we're currently facing.

 

[Journeyman]

Don't get me wrong. Leaving the EU is stupid and I hope it doesn't happen. But if it has to happen, it's good that it happens in the most disastrous way possible, forever destroying the credibility of the project and those involved with it, so we can return to the EU as quickly as possible.

Part of me wants to see leaving go drastically wrong so that the idiots in charge of it get what they deserve, but another part of me doesn't want the suffering that will go with it.

 

[krus_aragon]

What were you expecting MPs to do on those 3 days? The magical Vote Of No Confidence? Install the Government Of National Unity? The People's Parliament? It's all nonsense and yes, people are heartily sick of it.

Three (or was it four?) days of sitting time lost may not be the end of the world (though when Parliament only sits for four days a week it's more than it seems). But when you add on the extra days to receive, debate, and vote on the Queen's speech, the "mopping up" work to be done before prorogation, as well as the fact that anything that doesn't make it all the way through its third reading in both houses before prorogation will have to be started again after Parliament returns...

There's also the case that while the planned prorogation is not much longer than the anticipated recess for party conferences, Parliament can be recalled during a recess. Proroguing ensures that that will not happen.

Lots of people are sick of the situation, on many sides, for various reasons.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Queen has agreed to prorogue parliament. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...for-next-week-fuels-election-speculation-live


"It is this day ordered by Her Majesty in Council that the Parliament be prorogued on a day no earlier than Monday the 9th day of September and no later than Thursday the 12th day of September 2019 to Monday the 14th day of October 2019, to be then holden for the despatch of divers urgent and important affairs, and that the Right Honourable the Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain do cause a Commission to be prepared and issued in the usual manner for proroguing the Parliament accordingly."

I'm disappointed that the Queen was asked to do this - it will not have been an easy thing for her to agree to, and inevitably politicises her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair she couldn't not do. She has no real power.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair she couldn't not do. She has no real power.

Indeed - hence why I'm disappointed she was asked. The Queen is merely a vessel of power rather than someone who actively wields it.

 

[Struner]

Lots of people are sick of the situation, on many sides, for various reasons.

indeed, at times it makes me want to greet.

 

[Howardh]

To be fair she couldn't not do. She has no real power.

Benefits scrounger!

 

[Mag_seven]

Not surprised to see the DUP toadying up to the government. What must folk in NI think given the fact they voted remain.

 

[mmh]

Not surprised to see the DUP toadying up to the government. What must folk in NI think given the fact they voted remain.

The DUP voters will approve, the Sinn Fein voters will disapprove. Business as usual.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm disappointed that the Queen was asked to do this - it will not have been an easy thing for her to agree to, and inevitably politicises her.

She has no choice ( in reality) but to agree. She must act on the advice of her minsters and the application of her prerogative powers are not open to review or scrutiny. The content of the advice given to the Queen MAY ( if i recall my constitutional law correctly) be open to challenge. Her actions are not.

 

[Mag_seven]

Why are the BBC interviewing someone from the Brexit party? They have zero MPs! They should be given next to nothing in terms of air time.

 

[bramling]

Don't get me wrong. Leaving the EU is stupid and I hope it doesn't happen. But if it has to happen, it's good that it happens in the most disastrous way possible, forever destroying the credibility of the project and those involved with it, so we can return to the EU as quickly as possible.

This attitude I just can't understand. Surely *no one* should be actively hoping for a disastrous outcome. I suggest the above is quite revealing into the mentality of parts of the remain side.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why are the BBC interviewing someone from the Brexit party? They have zero MPs! They should be given next to nothing in terms of air time.

Their existence is a major influence in the Prime Minister's actions, as they'd have a large effect on the results of any general election held before this Brexit issue is put to rest.* As such (and having not seen the interview) I think it's reasonable.

*As in: election before we leave the EU: leave vote split between Conservatives and Brexit Party. Election after we've left: Brexit Party vote share collapses, other opposition parties in disarray at having failed to achieve their goals, Conservative Party stands a chance of being returned with a majority.

 

[mmh]

Now we are getting somewhere! This is because you don't like Parliament exercising it's sovereignty and holding the executive to account inst it?

Not at all. As I asked earlier, what do you expect, or what would you like, even, to happen?

That is the job of our democratically elected parliament. It isnt their just to rubber stamp decisions of the executive. It is clear from your recent posts your knowledge of the purpose and function of Parliament is limited.

You're very wrong with that personal insult. We clearly disagree on Brexit, but I've tried to be polite in disagreement.

I also note you rather touchingly seem to think that the government will not try to cram the timetable between the Queens Speech and the 31st of October with guff to reduce further the opportunity of parliament to exercise it's scrutiny over government business.

I'll have to admit it's tempting to not remain polite when you have such an endearing bedside manner!

I ask again: Why are you in favour of less debate and scrutiny over an issue of national importance?

I'm not. I don't mislabel wrecking attempts as scrutiny, which given your reluctance to explain what scrutiny you would like to see I rather suspect you are.

 

[mmh]

This attitude I just can't understand. Surely *no one* should be actively hoping for a disastrous outcome. I suggest the above is quite revealing into the mentality of parts of the remain side.

Agreed. It's one of the most unappealing things of the past three years. As if people are willing catastrophe purely to be able to say "I told you so."

It's confusing, I don't think the same happens following general elections.

 

[krus_aragon]

Agreed. It's one of the most unappealing things of the past three years. As if people are willing catastrophe purely to be able to say "I told you so."

It's confusing, I don't think the same happens following general elections.

There's a regular grumbling in the U.S.A. of "if X gets elected President, I'm moving to Canada" every four years. Few, if any, go ahead and do so.

 

[Ianno87]

Shouldn't we just reduce the fares? We could do that tomorrow.

This attitude I just can't understand. Surely *no one* should be actively hoping for a disastrous outcome. I suggest the above is quite revealing into the mentality of parts of the remain side.

Agreed. It's one of the most unappealing things of the past three years. As if people are willing catastrophe purely to be able to say "I told you so."

It's confusing, I don't think the same happens following general elections.

There's been plenty of opportunity for this not to be a disaster, had there been a proper plan.

Now, the collision seems inevitable.

 

[DarloRich]

Not at all. As I asked earlier, what do you expect, or what would you like, even, to happen?

I should think that is fairly obvious: Proper time for Parliament to debate, scrutnise, amended and challenge government proposals on Brexit. If the government presents no deal as the only option and that is accepted by Parliament after such debate, scrutiny, amendment and challenge then so be it. Alternatively, if that means we cant meet the arbitrary deadline De Piffle has placed upon himself then tough. Come back with a deal that works.

I suspect you would prefer Parliament to rubber stamp no deal while chanting "will of the people" and "taking back control"!

You're very wrong with that personal insult. We clearly disagree on Brexit, but I've tried to be polite in disagreement. I'll have to admit it's tempting to not remain polite when you have such an endearing bedside manner!

Fire away. I am not worried about what the nasty internet man says to me. As an aside the board rules prevent me from being rude so i cant agree with your suggestion.

I don't mislabel wrecking attempts as scrutiny, which given your reluctance to explain what scrutiny you would like to see I rather suspect you are.

And yet your own words show your mindset. You think Parliament is "wrecking" brexit. That is illustrative of your view. What they are doing is acting, as they should, as a check on executive power. They are showing the very sovereignty that Brexit was going to deliver! This is what you voited for. This is taking back control!

Agreed. It's one of the most unappealing things of the past three years. As if people are willing catastrophe purely to be able to say "I told you so."

Whereas Brexit fans like you are in no way to blame by pretending that everything will be super and brilliant and refusing to look at reality. Who will you blame if it isnt great? Which "wreckers" will you target next?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

When I see "ad hominem" attacks, I know the person has lost the argument.

 

[superjohn]

This attitude I just can't understand. Surely *no one* should be actively hoping for a disastrous outcome. I suggest the above is quite revealing into the mentality of parts of the remain side.

Similarly, I get the distinct impression from many leave supporters that their position is based purely on a desire to be on the winning side, nothing to do with an actual assessment of the matter at hand. A form of Manchester United supporter syndrome.

Despite being a committed remainer I do feel a sense of relief that something is finally happening. Whatever you think of Johnson he is doing something and accepts that he will be held responsible for the outcome. It is the failure of so many to declare what they actually want for fear of losing votes that has got us into this internationally embarrassing mess.

As for the overall outcome... There will inevitably be short term disruption as the new era begins but after that the economy will cycle up and down as it always has and always will. Both sides will claim that backs their position, both will be wrong. We will never truly know if we were better off out than in. There are too many other variables at play.

 

[mmh]

I should think that is fairly obvious: Proper time for Parliament to debate, scrutnise, amended and challenge government proposals on Brexit.

As it stands though, there is no proposal, and nothing to amend. I think it's awful that, three years later, that's the state of affairs but it is. Right now the only meaningful challenge would be to abort or delay leaving, which is a reasonable stance to take; if only people could be more honest about it. The heavily Remain leaning Commons has taken three years to fail to stop Brexit. I'm very cynical that they're all of a sudden going to do anything constructive.

If the government presents no deal as the only option and that is accepted by Parliament after such debate, scrutiny, amendment and challenge then so be it. Alternatively, if that means we cant meet the arbitrary deadline De Piffle has placed upon himself then tough. Come back with a deal that works.

Johnson didn't set the 31st October deadline, May, Tusk and other EU heads did.

I suspect you would prefer Parliament to rubber stamp no deal while chanting "will of the people" and "taking back control"!

Yet another thing you're wrong about. Not phrases I've ever used nor ever would use.

Fire away. I am not worried about what the nasty internet man says to me. As an aside the board rules prevent me from being rude so i cant agree with your suggestion.

No thanks, there is really no need to be rude. I don't understand why you're being rude, but hey ho.

And yet your own words show your mindset. You think Parliament is "wrecking" brexit. That is illustrative of your view. What they are doing is acting, as they should, as a check on executive power. They are showing the very sovereignty that Brexit was going to deliver! This is what you voited for. This is taking back control!

Whereas Brexit fans like you are in no way to blame by pretending that everything will be super and brilliant and refusing to look at reality. Who will you blame if it isnt great? Which "wreckers" will you target next?

Thanks for proving my point. It sounds like it's been a tiring and emotional day.

 

[krus_aragon]

Johnson didn't set the 31st October deadline, May, Tusk and other EU heads did.

He does seem to have adopted it very whole-heartedly, however. Or maybe it's just that he's been able to sound more convincing than Theresa May was about the 29th of Marth (or the 12th of April).

 

[Mag_seven]

Their existence is a major influence in the Prime Minister's actions, as they'd have a large effect on the results of any general election held before this Brexit issue is put to rest.* As such (and having not seen the interview) I think it's reasonable.

What is not reasonable however is for them to be given airtime to promote as they call it a "clean break Bexit" (as if it was a land of milk and honey) completely unchallenged.

 

[Carlisle]

There are plenty of Brexiters who might have accepted that if proposed at the beginning, and indeed said as much in 2016, but since then have adopted an attitude of always wanting more than what is on offer. To the extent that any interaction with the EU now seems like anathema to them.

What’s wrong with that? They’re simply employing Identical tactics to those that have been proven successfully over the years by organisations like the RMT etc, in the absence of strong leadership on the opposite side.

 

[mmh]

What is not reasonable however is for them to be given airtime to promote as they call it a "clean break Bexit" (as if it was a land of milk and honey) completely unchallenged.

The other extreme gets a lot of airtime too - e.g. Anna Soubry.

I think BBC news is often awful, but it can hold up to most accusations of political bias fairly well. Often the left think it's right-wing biased, the right think it's left biased, the Remainers think there are too many Leavers, the Leavers think there are too many Remainers...