Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[RealTrains07]

Been confirmed by the northern managing director that all WMR 323s will be going to northern and will be fully refurbished

Video below provides more information. Second half covers 323 information specifically

Apparently pictures of the progress of the first refurbished 323 is available somewhere

 

[prod_pep]

Been confirmed by the northern managing director that all WMR 323s will be coming to northern and will be fully refurbished

Not just some all 323s will be going to northern incase anyone needed further confirmation

Many thanks. Looking forward to trying 323234 when it comes back.

Rail got their sums wrong then, it seems. Who'd have thought it?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Been confirmed by the northern managing director that all WMR 323s will be coming to northern and will be fully refurbished

Not just some all 323s will be going to northern incase anyone needed further confirmation

Apparently pictures of the progress of the first refurbished 323 is available somewhere

It also confirms that they'll operate in 6 car formations.

 

[RealTrains07]

It also confirms that they'll operate in 6 car formations.

Sorry forgot to mention that

 

[The Ham]

It also confirms that they'll operate in 6 car formations.

If people want to jump strait to this but the relevant section is just after the 8:00 point on the video.

Although for those interested in things in general you can listen to them taking about the band new trains in Autumn 2018 (no that's not a typo, but rather thay said the wrong year, 2:10 ish)

 

[RealTrains07]

If people want to jump strait to this but the relevant section is just after the 8:00 point on the video.

Although for those interested in things in general you can listen to them taking about the band new trains in Autumn 2018 (no that's not a typo, but rather thay said the wrong year, 2:10 ish)

Overall i think it a great decision to replace the 319s with 323s

Obviously that means the only flex units will be going the TfW then

 

[Staffordian]

Obviously that means the only flex units will be going the TfW then

Not quite sure I follow. I had understood the 769’s would be replacing Pacers and 150’s, so replacing 319’s with 323’s frees up more of them to be converted to 769’s (for whichever franchise).

 

[AMD]

To prevent confusion, the 769s are staying with Northern for the duration of the franchise (presently 8 of them), even after the 319s have gone.

 

[RealTrains07]

To prevent confusion, the 769s are staying with Northern for the duration of the franchise (presently 8 of them), even after the 319s have gone.

Why, is their a need for them now?

 

[AMD]

We are starting to veer off topic, however there is a need for 769s in the capacity plan (as it will free up 16 15x units), and they will be used between Southport and Alderley Edge principally.

 

[edwin_m]

We are starting to veer off topic, however there is a need for 769s in the capacity plan (as it will free up 16 15x units), and they will be used between Southport and Alderley Edge principally.

The 769s were added to the mix because some of the electrification that Northern was assuming to be completed in their franchise bid didn't actually happen. As it's unlikely this will be done any time soon (probably not before the end of Northern's franchise) then some extra self-powered units are needed compared to the original fleet plan. Northern and DfT agreed this would be 769s and depending on the contract with Porterbrook they may be committed to paying for them from whenever they go into service until the end of the franchise whether they use them or not. FLIRTs would have been nicer but it's unlikely DfT would pay out that kind of money. And compared to the DMU alternative, 769s can at least use electric power on the parts of their journeys that are electrified.

It would appear that Northern now has a lot more EMUs than it originally thought it needed for the routes it can now use them on, because of the extra 323s but also because 331s were ordered to cover (directly or by cascade) the routes that haven't been electrified. So passengers on some of Northern's electrified routes may benefit from a relative bonanza of capacity.

The micro-fleet issue isn't quite as bad as it first appears, as large numbers of crews and fitters will be trained on 319s by now, so can convert to 769 relatively easily.

 

[driver_m]

Wait til someone suggests 773’s. (Please don’t!!) it is a JOKE!!

What is reliability like on them now that Allerton has got their hands on them? Have to give some credit to Longsight as they looked after them quite well compared to NH’s efforts with their diesel fleet. (And whether Allerton did a better job overall than Newton Heath on the diesel fleet)

 

[RealTrains07]

The 769s were added to the mix because some of the electrification that Northern was assuming to be completed in their franchise bid didn't actually happen. As it's unlikely this will be done any time soon (probably not before the end of Northern's franchise) then some extra self-powered units are needed compared to the original fleet plan. Northern and DfT agreed this would be 769s and depending on the contract with Porterbrook they may be committed to paying for them from whenever they go into service until the end of the franchise whether they use them or not. FLIRTs would have been nicer but it's unlikely DfT would pay out that kind of money. And compared to the DMU alternative, 769s can at least use electric power on the parts of their journeys that are electrified.

It would appear that Northern now has a lot more EMUs than it originally thought it needed for the routes it can now use them on, because of the extra 323s but also because 331s were ordered to cover (directly or by cascade) the routes that haven't been electrified. So passengers on some of Northern's electrified routes may benefit from a relative bonanza of capacity.

The micro-fleet issue isn't quite as bad as it first appears, as large numbers of crews and fitters will be trained on 319s by now, so can convert to 769 relatively easily.

Whether its 323s or 331s your getting a better deal than the trains they both replace

 

[Ribbleman]

We are starting to veer off topic, however there is a need for 769s in the capacity plan (as it will free up 16 15x units), and they will be used between Southport and Alderley Edge principally.

The 769s will also be used between Southport and Stalybridge. These two services will replace the current Southport-Leeds and Southport-Blackburn routes from the December timetable change, both running via Bolton, thus restoring the link between Southport and Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly. The 769s are now expected to be phased in during the currency of that timetable, i.e. before May 2020.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Whether its 323s or 331s your getting a better deal than the trains they both replace

Much better, no doubt about that.

 

[Harvey B]

Wait til someone suggests 773’s.

This might not be the place to ask this but what are 773's ?

 

[_toommm_]

This might not be the place to ask this but what are 773's ?

At a guess, it's a joke, referring to putting a diesel engine on a 323. 323 as a number is 4 higher than 319, and the bimode version of a 319 is 769, so that's where 773 came from.

 

[Harvey B]

At a guess, it's a joke, referring to putting a diesel engine on a 323. 323 as a number is 4 higher than 319, and the bimode version of a 319 is 769, so that's where 773 came from.

hahaha, I've only just found the funny side of it. Well don't give Northern and the ROSCO for the 323s any ideas

 

[plugwash]

Porterbrook own the 323s and given that they already have two conversion projects on the go it seems unlikely they would want to start a third one. Also as I understand it DC capable EMUs are generally easier to convert.

 

[edwin_m]

Porterbrook own the 323s and given that they already have two conversion projects on the go it seems unlikely they would want to start a third one. Also as I understand it DC capable EMUs are generally easier to convert.

The 323 has traction equipment under both end cars and a transformer under the centre car, so any diesel/battery/whatever would most likely have to go above floor.

 

[ainsworth74]

Aaaaand at that point I think any further discussion of a bi-mode 323 is going to have been to carried out on a new thread!

 

[Harvey B]

Porterbrook own the 323s and given that they already have two conversion projects on the go it seems unlikely they would want to start a third one. Also as I understand it DC capable EMUs are generally easier to convert.

If you read what I put, I said don't give Northern and Porterbook any ideas

 

[Harvey B]

which says



So which is it then - 17 or all 26?

I interpret that as WMT currently operate 26 Class 323 trains and 17 323's from WMT will move to Northern with the remaining 9 returning to porterbook.
If all 26 moved then most (if not all) of the 319s would leave Northern. My opinion is that Northern should keep some 319s too rather than cascading them off

 

[jonesy3001]

Have you not watched nodrog's youtube vid, even the MD says that all the 319s are going as northern are getting all the 323s from WMT and running in 6 car formations and even mentions the refurbishment progress of 323234, i cannot wait til the end of the month to see pics.

 

[Bovverboy]

I interpret that as WMT currently operate 26 Class 323 trains and 17 323's from WMT will move to Northern with the remaining 9 returning to porterbook.
If all 26 moved then most (if not all) of the 319s would leave Northern. My opinion is that Northern should keep some 319s too rather than cascading them off

However many WMT 323s are coming to Northern (and the balance of opinion seems to be that it is going to be all 26), the current plan is that all 319s will be returned to Porterbrook, although it could take up to a couple of years for them all to go.

 

[jonesy3001]

However many WMT 323s are coming to Northern (and the balance of opinion seems to be that it is going to be all 26), the current plan is that all 319s will be returned to Porterbrook, although it could take up to a couple of years for them all to go.

May 2021 is when northern should have the full batch depending on the progress of the 730s that are replacing them, unless they go via wolverton first to have northern colours applied or run around in WMT colours until they do, go like the 150/1's and 150209 that transferred from GWR and LM.

 

[keith1879]

This isn't meant as a dig at anyone. Please note that the Northern MD doesn't actually say that they are getting ALL the 323s...he says they are getting two batches from the West Midlands and keeping their own. This could mean (and hopefully does mean) all the 323s but if it turns out that the plan is to only get 20 (say) let's not jump on him and claim that he has broken a promise.

 

[jonesy3001]

This isn't meant as a dig at anyone. Please note that the Northern MD doesn't actually say that they are getting ALL the 323s...he says they are getting two batches from the West Midlands and keeping their own. This could mean (and hopefully does mean) all the 323s but if it turns out that the plan is to only get 20 (say) let's not jump on him and claim that he has broken a promise.

After watching the video again between 8:10 and 8:40, the MD mentions that northern are getting the WMT 323s in 2 batches and will have the full batch of 323s.

 

[Bovverboy]

After watching the video again between 8:10 and 8:40, the MD mentions that northern are getting the WMT 323s in 2 batches and will have the full batch of 323s.

Sorry, jonesy3001, he refers to Northern finishing up with 'a big fleet of 323s', but he doesn't say that they're going to finish up with every 323 that ever existed. That doesn't mean that they won't do, though.

 

[jonesy3001]

Sorry, jonesy3001, he refers to Northern finishing up with 'a big fleet of 323s', but he doesn't say that they're going to finish up with every 323 that ever existed. That doesn't mean that they won't do, though.

Can confirm it is all 26 from WMT after discussing with tony miles on WNXX forums and works for modern railways.