Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[D365]

Alec Hynes tweeted that the mean time between failures is now over 60k.miles

That’s very impressive if true.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I watched Matheson’s speech again earlier today, looking for some clue hinting at what he was to announce the next day. Nothing in what he said would arouse any suspicions but I did note at the time he didn’t mention ScotRail at all, far less Abellio which I thought was a slightly odd, but there again Network Rail wasn’t mentioned either. Hitachi got a big cheer though.

 

[route101]

Anyone got diagrams for 385s for Cathcart Circle and Newton services?

Are they going to Neilston in the future?

 

[NorthClyde320]

Anyone got diagrams for 385s for Cathcart Circle and Newton services?

Are they going to Neilston in the future?

Prior to Dec I noted the following workings:
14.51 Cathcart Circle
15.45 Newton and return
17.06 Cathcart Circle
17.45 Newton and return
all worked by the same unit which then went onto the 19.03 Edinburgh via Shotts

19.15 & 19.52 Cathcart Circle, more recently this was a 320
19.45 Newton and return, not sure if replaced by 320 like above

On Sat 14th the Newton dep from 15.20 onwards at XX.20 were all 385 (same unit)

Not sure if the above applies to the new Dec timetable

From what I have seen on here and another forum from the new timetable the following:

06.24 & 07.41 Newton to Central (same unit)
07.45 Central to Newton & 08.19 return (same unit) are 385 workings

Hope this is of some help

 

[DaStripedCgull]

Just spotted a 6 car 320 on Lanark, I thought this had been replaced by a 385? Surely they can't be short of 385's already.

That service is always a 6 car 320/318, the rest are all 6 car 385s.

 

[route101]

Prior to Dec I noted the following workings:
14.51 Cathcart Circle
15.45 Newton and return
17.06 Cathcart Circle
17.45 Newton and return
all worked by the same unit which then went onto the 19.03 Edinburgh via Shotts

19.15 & 19.52 Cathcart Circle, more recently this was a 320
19.45 Newton and return, not sure if replaced by 320 like above

On Sat 14th the Newton dep from 15.20 onwards at XX.20 were all 385 (same unit)

Not sure if the above applies to the new Dec timetable

From what I have seen on here and another forum from the new timetable the following:

06.24 & 07.41 Newton to Central (same unit)
07.45 Central to Newton & 08.19 return (same unit) are 385 workings

Hope this is of some help

Thanks

 

[NorthClyde320]

That service is always a 6 car 320/318, the rest are all 6 car 385s.

I know that but someone else said and apparently ScotRail tweeted that all the Lanark services would be 385 operated from the Dec timetable change, I am just wondering where the extra 5 318/320 units have come from to replace the 314's, as they don't seem to have been replaced by 385's. As previously commented, have they reduced capacity on the Argyle line to cover the 314's?

 

[snookertam]

I know that but someone else said and apparently ScotRail tweeted that all the Lanark services would be 385 operated from the Dec timetable change, I am just wondering where the extra 5 318/320 units have come from to replace the 314's, as they don't seem to have been replaced by 385's. As previously commented, have they reduced capacity on the Argyle line to cover the 314's?

In the morning peak 2 x 320 diagrams have been replaced by class 385s - this has released 2 units obviously - both diagrams run off to Shields after the peak.

To the best of my knowledge the Newton services above are 385s along with:

0813 Cathcart Outer Circle,
0850 Cathcart Outer Circle (both same unit off the 0741 ex-Newton)
0915 Cathcart Inner Circle and
0950 Cathcart Outer Circle (both same unit off 0745 Central to Newton.

Also the 2320 Glasgow Central to Newton is also a 385. Most other Newton via Queens Park workings seem to be a 380, which has released another 320. The 380 later forms the 2330 Glasgow Central to Ayr.

 

[DaStripedCgull]

I know that but someone else said and apparently ScotRail tweeted that all the Lanark services would be 385 operated from the Dec timetable change, I am just wondering where the extra 5 318/320 units have come from to replace the 314's, as they don't seem to have been replaced by 385's. As previously commented, have they reduced capacity on the Argyle line to cover the 314's?

Personally didn't hear anything about the Lanark services being all 385s. Im not to sure if they have reduced capacity.

 

[NorthClyde320]

Personally didn't hear anything about the Lanark services being all 385s. Im not to sure if they have reduced capacity.

In the morning peak 2 x 320 diagrams have been replaced by class 385s - this has released 2 units obviously - both diagrams run off to Shields after the peak.

To the best of my knowledge the Newton services above are 385s along with:

0813 Cathcart Outer Circle,
0850 Cathcart Outer Circle (both same unit off the 0741 ex-Newton)
0915 Cathcart Inner Circle and
0950 Cathcart Outer Circle (both same unit off 0745 Central to Newton.

Also the 2320 Glasgow Central to Newton is also a 385. Most other Newton via Queens Park workings seem to be a 380, which has released another 320. The 380 later forms the 2330 Glasgow Central to Ayr.

Thanks for the replies, I tip my hat to the diagramers and schedulers, a difficult and complex area to get truly correct and things most people don't take into account when incidents and delays occur.

 

[alangla]

If you’re tracing diagrams for Lanark, I think some of the early AM empty stock moves have changed. Everything pretty much starts from Motherwell and runs there in service rather than arriving empty, most now seem to come from Motherwell TMD except one from Shields via Central & Bellshill. The early move from Yoker to Motherwell via Whifflet that I thought went to Lanark now goes to Carstairs. Of the Carstairs trains, only one doesn’t go onto the Argyle line (2B71) and instead appears to return to Lanark. This also originates at Motherwell TMD, so is this a 385?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Has anymore been said on the 385s perhaps running in Ayrshire or was that idea fizzled out?

 

[hexagon789]

Has anymore been said on the 385s perhaps running in Ayrshire or was that idea fizzled out?

I get the impression that was never actually happening and was just a rumour or was ruled out quickly

 

[route101]

Has anymore been said on the 385s perhaps running in Ayrshire or was that idea fizzled out?

I think one day we will see a 385 down that way , theres no reason at the momnet for it to happen though.

 

[Class83]

Has there been any mention of Scotrail taking the additional units? And particularly if these would have short range battery packs to allow running over the Forth Bridge? Though I suppose the shenanigans with the contract will probably have delayed this if it is being considered.

 

[380101]

Has there been any mention of Scotrail taking the additional units? And particularly if these would have short range battery packs to allow running over the Forth Bridge? Though I suppose the shenanigans with the contract will probably have delayed this if it is being considered.

The additional 10 units were planned only if the additional 3 years extension to the contract was agreed. Thankfully it's not happening!

 

[InOban]

The additional 10 units were planned only if the additional 3 years extension to the contract was agreed. Thankfully it's not happening!

Thankfully? That's a matter of opinion.

 

[380101]

Thankfully? That's a matter of opinion.

Indeed it is. It's been a fairly mediocre to abismal 5 years with the current franchisee, who have ran out of excuses and people to blame for their failures. Their bid looked fantastic on paper and I, along with many of my colleagues had great expectations of them being a real breath of fresh air compared to First but sadly it hasn't materialised.

 

[anthannan]

Indeed it is. It's been a fairly mediocre to abismal 5 years with the current franchisee, who have ran out of excuses and people to blame for their failures. Their bid looked fantastic on paper and I, along with many of my colleagues had great expectations of them being a real breath of fresh air compared to First but sadly it hasn't materialised.

The 385's are proving to be decent though?

 

[380101]

The 385's are proving to be decent though?

Very reliable as you'd expect from Hitachi, however there's still alot of issues with them from the driver's side of things. Not least the severely restricted view from the windscreen, lots of draughts in the cab, complaints of them being cold even with the heating on, terrible on anything but the driest rails - Drivers don't look forward to driving them in smirry rain as they slide very easily. All in all they're not a great unit to drive from what I hear from my colleagues and I'm not looking forward to our depot getting them on our cards in 2020. Hopefully before any future rolling stock order is made for new stock they'll engage with drivers from the beginning before any design is approved so we get driving cabs fit for purpose and not just ones that tick the boxes for compliance to various rules (and that the faceless Transport Scotland civil servant that loves front end gangways has been moved or retired!).

 

[anthannan]

Very reliable as you'd expect from Hitachi, however there's still alot of issues with them from the driver's side of things. Not least the severely restricted view from the windscreen, lots of draughts in the cab, complaints of them being cold even with the heating on, terrible on anything but the driest rails - Drivers don't look forward to driving them in smirry rain as they slide very easily. All in all they're not a great unit to drive from what I hear from my colleagues and I'm not looking forward to our depot getting them on our cards in 2020. Hopefully before any future rolling stock order is made for new stock they'll engage with drivers from the beginning before any design is approved so we get driving cabs fit for purpose and not just ones that tick the boxes for compliance to various rules (and that the faceless Transport Scotland civil servant that loves front end gangways has been moved or retired!).

It always make sense to engage with drivers. Surely draughts and heating are issues that could be resolved. From what I understand Hitachi are usually keen to overcome issues like these?

 

[Class83]

The additional 10 units were planned only if the additional 3 years extension to the contract was agreed. Thankfully it's not happening!

While I'm not going to spend too much time defending Abellio, Scotrail do need more commuter stock, 334s and 380s are out of production, so without introducing a whole new class 385s are about the only game in town. So a bit of electrification round the Fife Circle and Borders, or the remaining SPT routes, and EMUs with short distance battery capability would be an easy way to achieve this. Presumably Scotrail or the ROSCO have at least some compensation/delay repay due from Hitachi due to the problems with introduction, so it might not even cost too much.

 

[380101]

While I'm not going to spend too much time defending Abellio, Scotrail do need more commuter stock, 334s and 380s are out of production, so without introducing a whole new class 385s are about the only game in town. So a bit of electrification round the Fife Circle and Borders, or the remaining SPT routes, and EMUs with short distance battery capability would be an easy way to achieve this. Presumably Scotrail or the ROSCO have at least some compensation/delay repay due from Hitachi due to the problems with introduction, so it might not even cost too much.

Plenty of other inter urban commuter EMUs coming onto the UK market from a variety of manufacturers. Hitatchi thankfully aren't the only game in town. Siemens, Bombardier, CAF and Stadler are all currently or have recently manufactured EMUs for UK TOCs. We'll just have to wait till 2022 to see what the next franchisee goes for.

 

[InOban]

If Abellio are due compensation for delays in introduction of the 385, then the TOCs who have taken designs by the other makers will be expecting complete fleets! The 385 is clearly the most reliable of the new fleets and Abellio chose well.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Plenty of other inter urban commuter EMUs coming onto the UK market from a variety of manufacturers. Hitatchi thankfully aren't the only game in town. Siemens, Bombardier, CAF and Stadler are all currently or have recently manufactured EMUs for UK TOCs. We'll just have to wait till 2022 to see what the next franchisee goes for.

I’m a real fan of the Class 385s, I think Hitachi have did a good job with these units. I do find them to be very similar to the Class 380s although I do like Siemens. I like the design of the Class 707s and 717s. I don’t imagine, given the problems, they will go back to Hitachi. Most modern EMU’s come with their problems. Let’s not forget the delays to service with the 334s (delay of the 303 withdrawal), 380s (major unit shortage as 334s could not cascade to operate on A-B) and 385s (Class 365s had to be brought from down south and 380s had to be brought from Ayrshire/Inverclyde causing major shortages and withdrawal of 314s) - it’s almost inevitable these days.

Whatever they go with I hope they consider suitability to routes such as Cathcart/Newton/Neilston and perhaps East Kilbride (if/when it’s electrified).

 

[mcmad]

The 385s have settled down to be good reliable units albeit still a bit rough riding.
I'd think they would be suitable for an electrified EK line but something more metro is needed for the circle etc. As has been posted many times there are plenty of nearly new EMU's available that would fit this mould perfectly but are probably not going to be used due to "not invented here" syndrome on TS's part.

 

[snookertam]

Very reliable as you'd expect from Hitachi, however there's still alot of issues with them from the driver's side of things. Not least the severely restricted view from the windscreen, lots of draughts in the cab, complaints of them being cold even with the heating on, terrible on anything but the driest rails - Drivers don't look forward to driving them in smirry rain as they slide very easily. All in all they're not a great unit to drive from what I hear from my colleagues and I'm not looking forward to our depot getting them on our cards in 2020. Hopefully before any future rolling stock order is made for new stock they'll engage with drivers from the beginning before any design is approved so we get driving cabs fit for purpose and not just ones that tick the boxes for compliance to various rules (and that the faceless Transport Scotland civil servant that loves front end gangways has been moved or retired!).

Which depot, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Class83]

The 385s have settled down to be good reliable units albeit still a bit rough riding.
I'd think they would be suitable for an electrified EK line but something more metro is needed for the circle etc. As has been posted many times there are plenty of nearly new EMU's available that would fit this mould perfectly but are probably not going to be used due to "not invented here" syndrome on TS's part.

I'm just thinking that having 4 classes of EMU (counting 318/320 as one) is probably enough. Though if there was something which could also replace the 318s that would be worth having.

Plenty of other inter urban commuter EMUs coming onto the UK market from a variety of manufacturers. Hitatchi thankfully aren't the only game in town. Siemens, Bombardier, CAF and Stadler are all currently or have recently manufactured EMUs for UK TOCs. We'll just have to wait till 2022 to see what the next franchisee goes for.

Average passenger journey times on the Fife Circle are similar (possibly longer) than the Edinburgh-Glasgow line, also in the Borders, so as long as there are mid carriage doors for fast boarding and EMUs with faster acceleration, the fleet simplicity of them basically being 3 car, all standard units is probably best.

 

[Speed43125]

The 385s have settled down to be good reliable units albeit still a bit rough riding.
I'd think they would be suitable for an electrified EK line but something more metro is needed for the circle etc. As has been posted many times there are plenty of nearly new EMU's available that would fit this mould perfectly but are probably not going to be used due to "not invented here" syndrome on TS's part.

Given Greater Anglia are ditching their 321s, why not just pull that trick again and convert a bunch more into 320s? They'll be dirt cheap, and while yes, it would be wabtec again dealing with the refurb (shudder shudder), it seemed OK last time when they created 320/4s so why not do that again if we are not politically motivated to order more 385s?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Given Greater Anglia are ditching their 321s, why not just pull that trick again and convert a bunch more into 320s? They'll be dirt cheap, and while yes, it would be wabtec again dealing with the refurb (shudder shudder), it seemed OK last time when they created 320/4s so why not do that again if we are not politically motivated to order more 385s?

Really I think it would have made more sense to convert more 320s in order to replace the 314s altogether. More conversions of the 320s just means a pretty massive order when they go along with 318s.