Do not travel! [Kings Cross weekend closures Jan/Feb 2020]

[Starmill]

Agreeing to put people off totally will cost LNER a lot of money, and give their competitors a temporary advantage, because people will either choose to drive most of the way, book a coach or a flight, or decide that they don't want to go to London at all. It's their right to agree the message cross-industry, as they have done, if they wish to.

Most people who have an urgent need to travel will notice if they put Doncaster to London into a journey planner, or speak to a member of staff, that they can in fact book a flexible ticket and make arrangements to travel on East Midlands Railway. People are not daft either - if they need to drive to a station and they see this warning if they pick Doncaster, they might pick Chesterfield instead, will not see the warning, and thus will be considered from there as booking normally.

 

[Flying Snail]

Seems a defeatist message, and I'm not convinced it gives the correct impression to taxpayers.

"Try and avoid these dates if you can, and expect delays and replacement buses if you travel" would be a more appropriate warning to my mind.

Defeatist or realistic?

If the TOCs know that RRB and alternative routes will only have the capacity for a small fraction of their usual traffic then convincing a lot of people to not attempt to travel is the only reasonable action.

If hope is given that there will be alternative travel opportunities then too many are likely to travel and overwhelm the available capacity.

The "only travel if it necessary" line just doesn't work outside severe weather events as people tend to overestimate the importance of their own activities while assuming everyone else will do the right thing and not travel when advised not to.

 

[Starmill]

I note that if one is booking right now from Doncaster to London on Saturday 25th January, there is an alright priced Advance ticket available on the following itinerary as shown at the LNER website:

0920 Doncaster to Sheffield (Northern)
1000 Sheffield to London St Pancras (East Midlands Railway)

The journey time is slow, but not too slow, at just under three hours. The price is £40.50, compared to £97.80 to buy on the day. What was all of that about the alternative routes being completely swamped? If one looks to the 1200 Sheffield to London train, a ticket just for that is on sale at £31. To me, they seem to be encouraging the use of the alternatives through price.

In the same way, a range of cheap Advance tickets at £2.00, £2.20 and £2.50 is available on the Northern services between Sheffield and Donaster, although I imagine all will be formed of either 2 or 3 coaches on the day?

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not sure a whishy washy message that people miss and then 1000s of people turn up expecting to travel via Sheffield, or on a limited replacement bus would be a good scenario. Unless you want more ‘railways in crisis’ stories in the media.

Defeatist or realistic?

If the TOCs know that RRB and alternative routes will only have the capacity for a small fraction of their usual traffic then convincing a lot of people to not attempt to travel is the only reasonable action.

If hope is given that there will be alternative travel opportunities then too many are likely to travel and overwhelm the available capacity.

The "only travel if it necessary" line just doesn't work outside severe weather events as people tend to overestimate the importance of their own activities while assuming everyone else will do the right thing and not travel when advised not to.

I'm not convinced that the "railway shut for the weekend" message will play any better in the media than predicted delays and bustitutions due to engineering works.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

The way i see it, the best way to warn of the works would be to combine both messages where possible.

Starting a warning off with "DO NOT TRAVEL" will grab people's attention. With how often announcements are made at stations, a long message advising passengers not to travel could just become background noise. Afterwards, elaborate on how services will be effected.

Of course, with this particular message being on a screen it may not have been possible to do both effectively.

 

[Mag_seven]

Starting a warning off with "DO NOT TRAVEL" will grab people's attention.

Oddly enough I was travelling through Doncaster today and it did grab my attention although I'm not an old lady who is likely to be frightened by it.

 

[transmanche]

Whatever happened to turning trains round at Finsbury Park?

After Christmas 2014 and the problems at Finsbury Park, it'd take a very brave Network Rail employee to suggest that. (Plus there's lots of other work going on too.)

I'm not convinced that the "railway shut for the weekend" message will play any better in the media than predicted delays and bustitutions due to engineering works.

It's exactly the same message they used earlier this year over the August Bank Holiday.

 

[DarloRich]

I despair at this board. I really do. The messsge is to deter non essential travel during a period of disruption, limit impacts on already busy services ( despite the information above) and to reduce unrealistic expectations in the mind of the passengers as to joirney time and quality . It is also an attempt to minimise bad pr and reduce complaints.

I know I am wasting my time pointing all this out...........

 

[yorksrob]

After Christmas 2014 and the problems at Finsbury Park, it'd take a very brave Network Rail employee to suggest that. (Plus there's lots of other work going on too.)

It's exactly the same message they used earlier this year over the August Bank Holiday.

I despair at this board. I really do. The messsge is to deter non essential travel during a period of disruption, limit impacts on already busy services ( despite the information above) and to reduce unrealistic expectations in the mind of the passengers as to joirney time and quality . It is also an attempt to minimise bad pr and reduce complaints.

I know I am wasting my time pointing all this out...........

Well, that's fine for the likes of me and you, who will automatically just book the Pendolino from Piccadilly, but will someone please think of the normals ?

What about the elderly lady who travels once a year to Eastbourne, and who has to make a short notice trip to Aunt Maud's funeral. This sort of message of "don't travel" is hardly of help.

 

[bb21]

Well, that's fine for the likes of me and you, who will automatically just book the Pendolino from Piccadilly, but will someone please think of the normals ?

What about the elderly lady who travels once a year to Eastbourne, and who has to make a short notice trip to Aunt Maud's funeral. This sort of message of "don't travel" is hardly of help.

What message do you wish to put out instead that is both concise and effective?

Tell people "please avoid A, B, C" and most people will just ignore it because they expect other people to do it hence they could carry on as usual themselves.
Tell people "do not travel" and many will indeed either cancel their journeys or make alternative arrangements if the journey is optional because the expectation is that the journey would be a nightmare.

People making absolutely essential journeys (your hypothetical funeral-goer) will search alternative routes regardless if rail travel is so important to them, at which point they will discover the alternative provisions.

Where capacity is severely limited, it becomes a safety issue more than anything else. There is nothing defeatist about being proactive in minimising the probability of potentially dangerous levels of overcrowding occurring.

 

[yorksrob]

What message do you wish to put out instead that is both concise and effective?

Tell people "please avoid A, B, C" and most people will just ignore it because they expect other people to do it hence they could carry on as usual themselves.
Tell people "do not travel" and many will indeed either cancel their journeys or make alternative arrangements if the journey is optional because the expectation is that the journey would be a nightmare.

People making absolutely essential journeys (your hypothetical funeral-goer) will search alternative routes regardless if rail travel is so important to them, at which point they will discover the alternative provisions.

Where capacity is severely limited, it becomes a safety issue more than anything else. There is nothing defeatist about being proactive in minimising the probability of potentially dangerous levels of overcrowding occurring.

Well, if this is such a "safety issue", how come we have not had the "don't travel" message up until the past couple of years ?

How do you know that our hypothetical funeral goer will find an alternative route ?

 

[bb21]

Well, if this is such a "safety issue", how come we have not had the "don't travel" message up until the past couple of years ?

Standards and requirements change. Network operators are far more aware of their responsibilities and liabilities these days and there are more people travelling, especially at traditionally "off-peak" times on intercity routes.

How do you know that our hypothetical funeral goer will find an alternative route ?

Can't be that "essential" then if no other options are explored in respect of rail, bus, coach, and car options.

 

[Table 52]

I really can’t see the problem here. Do not travel is a short and easy to remember message that will make those who really don’t need to travel choose an alternative date, or those that really do need to travel will be inclined to ask “why” look up (or ask staff) about the alternative routes and use them accordingly.

These days people are in a rush, especially if they’re hurrying for a train. The more concise the message, the more likely it’ll be noticed.

 

[infobleep]

Because they're also working at Stevenage (new platform 5), and transferring a lot of signalling to York. A whole series of worksites to make the best use of the closure. BTW the same will happen 5 weekends later, and on the other weekends half of KX will be closed.
I agree that arrangements should be made for anyone who needs to get to London to travel via Sheffield.

Pleased to see they are coordinating works to occur at the same time.

 

[Ianno87]

Well, if this is such a "safety issue", how come we have not had the "don't travel" message up until the past couple of years ?

How do you know that our hypothetical funeral goer will find an alternative route ?

Because of social media. Every time LNER run a service during engineering works (either a reduction of their own service, or accommodating displaced WCML passengers) you don't have to wait long before pictures are all over social media (and then the wider media) of passsengers standing all the way down the aisles, with the usual claims of "how can this be safe, why did they sell this many tickets", etc.

The Do Not Travel message is proving to be effective both in deterring unneccessary travel, and also setting realistic expectations of travel conditions to passengers who choose to ignore it.

 

[Aictos]

I am sure the experts here know best

Of course, didn’t you know that?

The problem with a soft approach is you would get trains heavily overcrowded as people won’t take notice of the fact that’s engineering works and assume a normal service is in play hence why I agree with the LNER approach for people not to travel unless absolutely need to.

 

[alistairlees]

People on this forum who are currently complaining about the ‘do not travel’ message would be complaining about ‘overcrowded trains / standing in the aisles / can’t rail replacement buses be better organised’ if the opposite approach were taken. The ‘do not travel’ message had the required effect - the reduced service coped well with a reduced number of passengers, and there were no PR incidents - last time, which is why it’s being repeated.

It seems to work in that most casual traffic is deterred whilst people making essential trips still manage to find a way.

 

[yorksrob]

Standards and requirements change. Network operators are far more aware of their responsibilities and liabilities these days and there are more people travelling, especially at traditionally "off-peak" times on intercity routes.


Can't be that "essential" then if no other options are explored in respect of rail, bus, coach, and car options.

So basically arse covering then.

 

[yorksrob]

Because of social media. Every time LNER run a service during engineering works (either a reduction of their own service, or accommodating displaced WCML passengers) you don't have to wait long before pictures are all over social media (and then the wider media) of passsengers standing all the way down the aisles, with the usual claims of "how can this be safe, why did they sell this many tickets", etc.

The Do Not Travel message is proving to be effective both in deterring unneccessary travel, and also setting realistic expectations of travel conditions to passengers who choose to ignore it.

Unfortunately social media is a fact of life.

It does seem to me that passenger woes due to engineering works seem to make the news more readily when they overrun into a time when they were not planned for, rather than planned works per se (was this not the issue at Finsbury Park a couple of years ago ?).

 

[DarloRich]

Pleased to see they are coordinating works to occur at the same time.

Anyone would think there was a coordinated plan!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I despair at this board. I really do. The messsge is to deter non essential travel during a period of disruption, limit impacts on already busy services ( despite the information above) and to reduce unrealistic expectations in the mind of the passengers as to joirney time and quality . It is also an attempt to minimise bad pr and reduce complaints.

I know I am wasting my time pointing all this out...........

Define "non-essential" travel. On the weekend of 25-26 January there will be lots of events going off in London (like most weekends); football matches, concerts, theatre shows, etc. Why should a rail company have the arrogance to tell people that they should not spend their leisure time enjoying a trip to London on that particular weekend?

I agree with the OP; a passive-aggresive "do not travel" message is wholly inappropriate and a standard, if slightly longer, message about engineering work meaning there will be no trains between Peterborough and London would be a lot more customer-friendly.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

May I point out that the hypothetical funeral goer, or that aunt who only travels by rail once a year, will not see these notices in the first place.

 

[LowLevel]

It's easier than trying to articulate 'if you try and use the alternative route into St Pancras expect to be left behind on the platform at one or more points during your journey and don't whinge if you do get on board about travelling with your face in someone else's armpit'.

The look of horror on diverted passenger's faces at places like Grantham and Nottingham when the usual 2 car 158 rolls in is a thing to behold.

Same with the 5 and 7 car 222s that leave their origins full of diverted passengers and then don't provide any sort of service to those on the rest of the route.

 

[The Planner]

Define "non-essential" travel. On the weekend of 25-26 January there will be lots of events going off in London (like most weekends); football matches, concerts, theatre shows, etc. Why should a rail company have the arrogance to tell people that they should not spend their leisure time enjoying a trip to London on that particular weekend?

I agree with the OP; a passive-aggresive "do not travel" message is wholly inappropriate and a standard, if slightly longer, message about engineering work meaning there will be no trains between Peterborough and London would be a lot more customer-friendly.

How many of those events would have been dated or arranged after the engineering works were planned? Answer, a significant amount.

 

[Stampy]

I was planning to travel from Peterborough to Bristol and back on the 25th.

Now driving to/from Bedford, and going by train from there.

Small inconvenience, but hey ho..... And cheaper too!!!

 

[717001]

People on this forum who are currently complaining about the ‘do not travel’ message would be complaining about ‘overcrowded trains / standing in the aisles / can’t rail replacement buses be better organised’ if the opposite approach were taken. The ‘do not travel’ message had the required effect - the reduced service coped well with a reduced number of passengers, and there were no PR incidents - last time, which is why it’s being repeated.

It seems to work in that most casual traffic is deterred whilst people making essential trips still manage to find a way.

Agree and, for those who do need to travel, most of the GN/TL RRBs and alternative routes have been in planners for some time. Think the planned RRB link from Potters Bar to Cockfosters / Oakwood (for Piccadilly Line) is yet to be uploaded.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Define "non-essential" travel. On the weekend of 25-26 January there will be lots of events going off in London (like most weekends); football matches, concerts, theatre shows, etc. Why should a rail company have the arrogance to tell people that they should not spend their leisure time enjoying a trip to London on that particular weekend?

I agree with the OP; a passive-aggresive "do not travel" message is wholly inappropriate and a standard, if slightly longer, message about engineering work meaning there will be no trains between Peterborough and London would be a lot more customer-friendly.

Would the hypothetical funeral-goer or once-a-year traveller even know that Peterborough is on the route into Kings Cross ???

 

[bb21]

So basically arse covering then.

No, but it is impossible to talk sense sometimes if that is the logic people wish to use. I don't think there is much else I can add further.

 

[bb21]

May I point out that the hypothetical funeral goer, or that aunt who only travels by rail once a year, will not see these notices in the first place.

True to an extent, but they will also be researching their options in advance too.

 

[Aictos]

So basically arse covering then.

No just common sense which some don’t have those days.