East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[Justin Smith]

I went over to "Ince and Elton" today (a difficult station to "cop" ! ) and I had an EMT C158 both ways. I tell you what they're not half bad, well refurbished with a quality feel and it seemed to have significantly more room than a Northern C158. How have they managed that ?
They're not as good as C175s though (surely the most comfortable and quiet of all the DMUs ? ) but pretty good none the less.

The thing is the very same company has what must be the worst long distance stock in the country, the Meridians.
Well OK the second worst after the Pendolinos, but even so.
I find the EMT Meridians to be claustrophobic, cramped and noisy. They're absolute sh**e, I hate them so much, esp the second class, that I generally travel over to the ECML (from Sheffield) whenever I go down to London.

The difference between stock of the same train company is incredible.....

 

[EM2]

Y'see, I don't have any problems with Meridians or Pendolinos. In fact, I'd say I find them the exact opposite of everything you describe them as...

 

[Justin Smith]

Y'see, I don't have any problems with Meridians or Pendolinos. In fact, I'd say I find them the exact opposite of everything you describe them as...

Maybe you don't ever want to look out of the window (esp on the Pendolinos) ?

As for the Meridians do you not find the high backed joined up seats in front (when sat in the airline seats) are oppressively claustrophobic ? I hate them with a passion.
Incidentally, does anyone know which services from/to Sheffield can be guaranteed an HST ? They're far better, more comfortable, less cramped, less claustrophobic and far, far quieter........ Quality.

 

[Fincra5]

Maybe you don't ever want to look out of the window (esp on the Pendolinos) ?

As for the Meridians do you not find the high backed joined up seats in front (when sat in the airline seats) are oppressively claustrophobic ? I hate them with a passion.
Incidentally, does anyone know which services from/to Sheffield can be guaranteed an HST ? They're far better, more comfortable, less cramped, less claustrophobic and far, far quieter........ Quality.

Yeah the window on the pendolino isnt huge but you can still see enough out of it.

 

[asylumxl]

The thing is the very same comapny has what must be the worst long distance stock in the country, the Meridians.
Well OK the second worst after the Pendolinos, but even so.
I find the EMT Meridians to be claustrophobic, cramped and noisy. They're absolute sh**e, I hate them so much, esp the second class, that I generally travel over to the ECML (from Sheffield) whenever I go down to London

That's funny cos the Meridians have bigger windows than the MK3s and MK4s and similar leg room. Men in white coats are coming for you now.

 

[EM2]

I don't get this argument about windows.
I've never had a window seat on any train where I couldn't actually see out of the window.
And the legroom and space is fine too.
Felt less comfortable in a Mk4, much less legroom at a table than on a Meridian.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I quite like the Meridians. They're fine - particularly if you get a table seat. Still try and get the 125's though

 

[lm321412]

I do like the meridans, much better than a vomiter or pendolino. They do have quite a nice ambience in both classes and I am a fan of the seats too. My only gripe about the Meridans is the really annoying door noise when it is opened. It does make quite an annoying noise especially when travelling for some distance.

 

[Justin Smith]

That's funny cos the Meridians have bigger windows than the MK3s and MK4s and similar leg room. Men in white coats are coming for you now.

I remember going all the way down to St Pancras with the wife on a Meridian.
There was a huge window pillar almost obscuring any view, but that was made even worse by the high and joined up seat backs of the [airline] seats in front. So I couldn't see much to either side (the luggage rack was on the other side), and I couldn't see anything to the front.
It was horrendously claustrophobic, absolutely awful.
I vowed never to use a Meridian, esp for a 2Hr plus journey, ever, ever again.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, I quite like the Meridians. They're fine - particularly if you get a table seat. Still try and get the 125's though

They're far better in the claustrophobia stakes, but unfortunately I like my own space so a 4some table is out. Maybe I'm just anti social, but I don't much like playing footsie with the person sat opposite you (at a table) either.....

 

[Pumbaa]

The EMT 158s are awful. The refurb is shoddy, falling apart already. Left massively underpowered by the work DeltaFail have done to them, and I know a driver will be along soon to lambast DeltaRails work!

On the other hand, Meridian seats are very comfortable, have good views and are very smooth to ride on. You can get a pillar view seat on almost any train. My gripes with Meridians are... the Standard seats should be split, not one big slap; it does induce a level of claustrophobia. The luggage racks need to be slightly shallower angled; it makes bags that will go in Voyager racks unable to fit in them. The LED seat reservation screen is angled stupidly, making it difficult to read unless you squint or crouch down, unlike the Voyagers where it's positioned perfectly well.

They're a lot better than Voyagers, very roomy inside. I used to prefer 220/221s over Meridians, but after using them a lot in the last 8 months, I appreciate them vastly.

 

[Daimler]

I don't get this argument about windows.
I've never had a window seat on any train where I couldn't actually see out of the window.
And the legroom and space is fine too.
Felt less comfortable in a Mk4, much less legroom at a table than on a Meridian.

I take it you've never had the misfortune to sit a a seat like this, then - and that isn't the worst I've seen on a 390.

It's just unacceptably poor design.

Or this entertaining effort from a Voyager. I mean, how little thought actually went into the table/window alignment in these trains? It's like they went out of their way to make it rubbish!

 

[Justin Smith]

I take it you've never had the misfortune to sit a a seat like this, then - and that isn't the worst I've seen on a 390.

It's just unacceptably poor design.

Or this entertaining effort from a Voyager. I mean, how little thought actually went into the table/window alignment in these trains? It's like they went out of their way to make it rubbish!

I agree with you I think it appalling design, esp the Pendolinos.
I can only think they used aircraft designers to plan the train, to them the windows are acceptably large !
I've done a bit of research on the window area of the Pendolino v the original APT.
Pendolino = 10.1Sq M per coach
APT = 19.0Sq M per coach
QED
So it seems some designers haven't even bothered studying a bit of history, arrogant gits.......

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The EMT 158s are awful. The refurb is shoddy, falling apart already.

They're comfortably the best (pun intended) C158, of that there's no doubt.

 

[Techniquest]

Well for what it's worth, I thoroughly dislike the 222s for the same reasons as the OP.

Comfortable seats? I've got my back to a metal headboard on the bed and it's more comfortable for it than a seat on a 222. Even in First Class!

Claustrophobic? I agree. Hull Trains' 222s were worse for that I thought.

I don't think the Meridians are much cop at all, especially when compared to the cream of their crop, the HST. I might be slightly biased towards the HST, as it's my motive power of choice, but I wasn't when I tried the Meridians and found them to be a poor train. I don't particularly like 170s either, but I like them more than 222s!

As for the rest of the EMT fleet, I've not found an excuse to waste money on trying their other stuff out yet (a fair bit of which I've had before anyway, especially the ex-GW 153s), maybe one day.

EDIT: I must claim the GW 158s to be the best around though, especially those with the more comfortable ex-TPX seats. The other, newer, ones are OK, but those ex-TPX seats are great for just collapsing into on a long journey!

 

[HITMAN]

I like the 222's and the pendo's the seats are comfortable and yes there are crap views from some of the seats on a pendo, but if you don't like it don't sit there. The pendos are also good fun because they tilt, with rugby station being particularly good to go through at speed

 

[Mintona]

395 > 222 > HST > the rest.

IMO

 

[Techniquest]

Least you got the last bit right!

 

[MCR247]

I think Meridians are great trains, apart from at tables, half the time the windows finishes in the middle or 3/4 of the table, to one side doesn't get a great view

 

[Justin Smith]

395 > 222 > HST > the rest.

IMO

Sorry, don't understand, are you saying a 222 is better than an HST ? ! ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I like the 222's and the pendo's the seats are comfortable and yes there are crap views from some of the seats on a pendo, but if you don't like it don't sit there. The pendos are also good fun because they tilt, with rugby station being particularly good to go through at speed

You can only do that if the train's (more than) half empty and you get a big choice of seat.
I haven't been on a huge number of Pendolinos because I live in Sheffield, but of all those I have been on, only one was sufficiently empty for me to sit at a decent seat.
I do agree that the Pendolinos are exciting to travel in, but only if you can actually see out of a window.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well for what it's worth, I thoroughly dislike the 222s for the same reasons as the OP.

Comfortable seats? I've got my back to a metal headboard on the bed and it's more comfortable for it than a seat on a 222. Even in First Class!

Claustrophobic? I agree. Hull Trains' 222s were worse for that I thought.

I don't think the Meridians are much cop at all, especially when compared to the cream of their crop, the HST. I might be slightly biased towards the HST, as it's my motive power of choice, but I wasn't when I tried the Meridians and found them to be a poor train. I don't particularly like 170s either, but I like them more than 222s!

As for the rest of the EMT fleet, I've not found an excuse to waste money on trying their other stuff out yet (a fair bit of which I've had before anyway, especially the ex-GW 153s), maybe one day.

EDIT: I must claim the GW 158s to be the best around though, especially those with the more comfortable ex-TPX seats. The other, newer, ones are OK, but those ex-TPX seats are great for just collapsing into on a long journey!

I agree with everything you say, except for the bit on GW158s, and that's only because I haven't actually been on one so I wouldn't know !

 

[pemma]

I don't get this argument about windows.
I've never had a window seat on any train where I couldn't actually see out of the window.
And the legroom and space is fine too.
Felt less comfortable in a Mk4, much less legroom at a table than on a Meridian.

Sorry misread post.

 

[mallard]

I like the Meridians. Since my local station is on the MML, I use them often.

Unfortunately, like with most modern stock (including refurbished older stock), some seats don't line up with windows. The Meridians have much less of a problem in this regard than the Pendolinos, due to their much larger windows, but some seats are unfortunately badly sited.

The seats themselves are IMHO among the best standard-class seats in the UK. (It's between those and the "Project Mallard" seats IMHO). Proper backrests and headrests, seats that are actually soft, unlike those on Electrostars and 395s, all make for a comfortable ride.

As for noise, yes, the Meridians (like the Voyagers) have an engine noise, but I find the low-pitched bass-line sound not in the least annoying, in fact I find it quite a comforting sound, much more so than the "hiss" of mk3/mk4 carriages at speed.

I do also like EMT's 158 refurbs with their very clean, light and modern interiors, but IMHO the seating is inferior and, in common with all other diesel-hydraulic MUs, they rattle annoyingly if even one panel somewhere on the train is not properly screwed down (which is most of the time).

 

[Daimler]

I like the 222's and the pendo's the seats are comfortable and yes there are crap views from some of the seats on a pendo, but if you don't like it don't sit there. The pendos are also good fun because they tilt, with rugby station being particularly good to go through at speed

Would that it were so simple! Half the time their trains are packed and you have no choice - a problem not helped by the ridiculous standard/first class ratio and the frankly rubbish number of seats per coach, considering how cramped they feel.

 

[pemma]

I do also like EMT's 158 refurbs with their very clean, light and modern interiors, but IMHO the seating is inferior and, in common with all other diesel-hydraulic MUs, they rattle annoyingly if even one panel somewhere on the train is not properly screwed down (which is most of the time).

I think the issue with seating is DfT wanted the new operator to increase the number of seats on carriages used for the Liverpool-Norwich services. Obviously there's only three possibilities on 158s:
* Less table seats
* Thinner seat backs
* Perches near doors opposed to proper seats

I think the new seats are similar in comfort to those on 175s.

 

[Pumbaa]

Would that it were so simple! Half the time their trains are packed and you have no choice - a problem not helped by the ridiculous standard/first class ratio and the frankly rubbish number of seats per coach, considering how cramped they feel.

Actually in fairness, the standard:first ratio is well deserving in peak time - those people don't pay £200 odd quid for nothing. Even last week coming out of Lime Street, I was very surprised at how busy it was in 1st. Every bay of was occupied by a couple of suits, and most 2 seaters were also occupied by leisure travellers.

The basic coach has 72 seats, comparable to a Mk3. Coaches with disabled loo, shop and 2/3 quiet coach at the front obviously have less.

 

[pemma]

Actually in fairness, the standard:first ratio is well deserving in peak time - those people don't pay £200 odd quid for nothing. Even last week coming out of Lime Street, I was very surprised at how busy it was in 1st. Every bay of was occupied by a couple of suits, and most 2 seaters were also occupied by leisure travellers.

The basic coach has 72 seats, comparable to a Mk3. Coaches with disabled loo, shop and 2/3 quiet coach at the front obviously have less.

There is a lot of criticism on Scottish services that 1st class has empty seats while people are standing in standard.

 

[Pumbaa]

There is a lot of criticism on Scottish services that 1st class has empty seats while people are standing in standard.

This is true. Virgin have made it plain thought that they consider the Glasgow route an inconvenience - it doesn't make them enough money! Liverpool will be getting 2tph (about ruddy time too) before Glasgow even gets an hourly service!

 

[Oswyntail]

There is no such thing as a comfortable seat that suits everyone. I am 5' 11" but with very short legs and a very long torso. I am also lard-arsed and broad shouldered. For me legroom is seldom a problem as such, but, on modern stock, especially Pendolinos, my line of sight is too high up the window, and the contour of the coach side gives me insufficient shoulder room, so I feel hemmed in, especially next to a window pillar. Seat width is a problem if anyone sits next to me. I also get back ache easily, and some of the supports in the various seat types do not suit, so I wriggle a lot. Despite that, I am not a circus freak (no comments, please), just a normallish middle-aged chap. But I accept that any mass-use design is a compromise. One man's wonder-train is another's backache!

 

[pemma]

But I accept that any mass-use design is a compromise. One man's wonder-train is another's backache!

One thing we hear commonly is that the layout has been compromised because it's a mixture of longer distance passengers and passengers just doing to the next stop e.g. the 185s.

I noted recently that DB Regio double deckers are clearly a compromise. They have a mixture of low back longitudal seating near the doors and stairs (presumably to allow more standees) and high back 2+2 seating (presumably so someone travelling for 90 minutes doesn't have to sit in a longitudal seat for the entire journey.

I think there is also the issue of no-one actually tests the seating before it is massed produced. For example, on the old FNW 150s the seats are the same sort of size as on the ATW and FGW 150s but in a 3+2 formation with no armrests meaning there isn't anywhere for your arm to go if your sat next to the window, except to squash it in.

 

[Techniquest]

I agree with everything you say, except for the bit on GW158s, and that's only because I haven't actually been on one so I wouldn't know !

Then I recommend giving them a fair try before casting them off as worse than EMT's lot. Considering the state some of them were in before the refurb, they did a fine job IMO.

 

[HITMAN]

You can only do that if the train's (more than) half empty and you get a big choice of seat.
I haven't been on a huge number of Pendolinos because I live in Sheffield, but of all those I have been on, only one was sufficiently empty for me to sit at a decent seat.
I do agree that the Pendolinos are exciting to travel in, but only if you can actually see out of a window.......

Would that it were so simple! Half the time their trains are packed and you have no choice - a problem not helped by the ridiculous standard/first class ratio and the frankly rubbish number of seats per coach, considering how cramped they feel.

There only seems to be a few seats that are genuinely **** as regards to seeing out of the window, agreed its not as good visibility as on something like a 170 but its the compromise for the excellent crash protection they offer. Seeing how fast the Pendo's manage to take some fairly sharp curves does show that there is a lot of potential to speed up the UK network

 

[Justin Smith]

The seats themselves are IMHO among the best standard-class seats in the UK. (It's between those and the "Project Mallard" seats IMHO). Proper backrests and headrests, seats that are actually soft.

Don't you think the fact the seat are joined together, like the back of a bench, makes Meridians horribly claustrophobic ?
I certainly think it does.
And one more thing, the white seat backs reflect in the windows further restricting ones view, esp in the twilight or if the sun is shining in the wrong direction. I know Voyagers also have this problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a problem.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for noise, yes, the Meridians (like the Voyagers) have an engine noise, but I find the low-pitched bass-line sound not in the least annoying, in fact I find it quite a comforting sound, much more so than the "hiss" of mk3/mk4 carriages at speed.

! ? !

(P.S. Are you being serious ?)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do also like EMT's 158 refurbs with their very clean, light and modern interiors, but IMHO the seating is inferior and, in common with all other diesel-hydraulic MUs, they rattle annoyingly if even one panel somewhere on the train is not properly screwed down (which is most of the time).

To be fair it isn't just Diesel Hydraulic rolling stock that has annoying rattles. Voyagers, which are Diesel Electric, are amongst the worst for annoying rattles.
In fact let me be even more fair, the best rolling stock, i.e. hauled coaches, sometimes suffer from annoying rattles too.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a lot of criticism on Scottish services that 1st class has empty seats while people are standing in standard.

The wife and I have booked First class for the leg of our journey from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. To be frank I'm not sure we'd have gone by train if it was Second class. You know how women moan on and on, I wouldn't have risked taking her on a long railway journey in a (possibly) crowded second class carriage which will also have a far higher chance of an annoyingly loud personal stereo near by......