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Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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Bletchleyite

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Maybe it was a genuine mistake by the officer, who had possibly heard somewhere “stay indoors”, which is certainly something not uncommonly heard at the moment - presumably by people who simply haven’t thought through the precision of their words.

I bet the front garden incident wasn’t in the south-east, where no one actually *uses* their front gardens! ;)

Yes, I suspect so. People saying "stay indoors" need to stop saying it, it's really, really unhelpful. "Stay at home" is the slogan, everyone needs to stick to that.

If I recall correctly it was somewhere in south Yorkshire.
 
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bramling

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Yes, I suspect so. People saying "stay indoors" need to stop saying it, it's really, really unhelpful. "Stay at home" is the slogan, everyone needs to stick to that.

If I recall correctly it was somewhere in south Yorkshire.

Sounds about right. I always find it rather unnerving in certain northern areas how people will quite happily put a table and chairs in their front garden and have a family meal, or have something like a trampoline with kids playing. It just doesn’t sit right with me at all.

Agreed about the stay indoors. I’m sure it’s not being said deliberately, just people not thinking.

I must admit I’ve had to do some car pressure washing on the road outside the front of my house. One of the cars hasn’t been in it’s normal place (thanks to the number of cars laid up during the lockdown), and being under a tree it’s been covered in bird mess. If I’m to use it for work safely then unfortunately regular washing is pretty much essential in this situation, plus I don’t want to store up a corrosion problem for the future.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sounds about right. I always find it rather unnerving in certain northern areas how people will quite happily put a table and chairs in their front garden and have a family meal, or have something like a trampoline with kids playing. It just doesn’t sit right with me at all.

I think it's accepted that in the North generally (and the poorer the area, the more it seems to be the case) people simply don't live such private lives as down South. Which is often seen as a symptom of how crowded the South is - going home is therefore a way of hiding away from other people.

Agreed about the stay indoors. I’m sure it’s not being said deliberately, just people not thinking.

Most likely, yes.
 

6Gman

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Ok, so I had a choice when I went shopping today getting home (as I don't drive)
I could have
  1. Got a taxi from the taxi rank (2 minute wait, £7)
  2. Ordered an Ola (19 minute wait, £4.25)
  3. Waited for the bus (25 minute wait, £1.50)
The first option would have meant potentially knocking a leg wound whilst getting into the taxi, and paying significantly over the odds, with no option to pay by card.
The second option would have been cashless, could put the bags in the boot (3 full bags with various top up groceries and necessities) and wouldn't have upset my wound as I can get in/out of a Prius without upsetting it.
The 3rd option would have resulted in a load of kerfuffle with the bags whilst boarding the bus, trying to get the correct change out of a cash bag in my pocket, and trying to find a seat not occupied on a Enviro200 whilst trying to manage 3 full bags on my own, and then a 400 yard walk up then down hill to my door.

Both option 2/3 would have meant waiting near the store in the bus station/by the bus station area for nearly 20 minutes, but whilst waiting I could take a couple of bus pictures on my phone whilst waiting, at the same time being more than 2m from someone else.

What would people suggest I would do with those 3 options on the table (clue - I opted for the Ola because of the amount of bags and being on my own. Had I had a relative with me (who lives in the same house) I would no doubt have got the bus because of trying to save money (and the potential to grab a few bits from the local corner shop and possibly top up the gas & leccy).

Tomorrow I need to visit the post office in the next town because my local one is Shut till Tuesday and I need to pay some money in my account and pay the poll tax for my mom. I might have a look in the coop part for some ideas for teas whilst I'm at it.

I would hope you would have a local volunteer scheme in your area to help you.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would hope you would have a local volunteer scheme in your area to help you.

I'd probably have made the same choice as @bussnapperwm, to be honest. I went through a phase of using more private hire "taxis" in MK because I could pay by card for those but the bus required the faff of cash (they're not that expensive as the market here is highly competitive). I do own a car and tend to prefer deliveries and top-ups locally, but if I did need to do a "big shop" without a car it'd be bus or walk there, taxi back.
 

GB

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For instance, for shopping it could have been worded as "Such a journey may only be undertaken where there is an urgent requirement for provisions on which a VAT rate of 0% applies, however it is permitted to purchase other items on a trip started for the former reason provided they are purchased from the same shop" - that is, you're fine picking up a chainsaw and a couple of air compressors from Aldi, but only if you need bread and milk as well.

Why make things more awkward and complicated than they need to be. I haven't got a clue what is 0% VAT rated and I suspect neither do a lot of people. Are you also saying that if I only need "health & beauty" products like razors, shaving foam, bath foam, shampoo or sanitary products etc I can only buy them with *bread and milk (or other 0% rated items)...

*bread and milk that I do not need and would be a complete waste.
 

Bletchleyite

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Why make things more awkward and complicated than they need to be. I haven't got a clue what is 0% VAT rated and I suspect neither do a lot of people. Are you also saying that if I only need "health & beauty" products like razors, shaving foam, bath foam, shampoo or sanitary products etc I can only buy them with *bread and milk (or other 0% rated items)...

*bread and milk that I do not need and would be a complete waste.

It was just an example, "nitpicking" it, while valid, wasn't really the point I was trying to make, which was that you should logically be able to buy what you like that a shop sells if you have an essential reason to go there, and that that essential reason could have been defined more closely.

I certainly don't think it's a time to buy clothes as to buy clothes you tend to try them on, and trying them on is a spread vector.
 

GB

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I certainly don't think it's a time to buy clothes as to buy clothes you tend to try them on, and trying them on is a spread vector.

But there might be times where buying clothes might be needed...not on a jolly day out shopping per se, but if someone needs to buy a shirt and tie etc for a job interview, funeral or event for example. Not recently but I have had to purchase trousers for work when the pairs I had at home have were unavailable and delivery from the work supplier would take too long. This is the problem when you try and define "essential", You can't as it means different things to different people in different circumstances. Common sense is all that is needed here.
 

Belperpete

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it would have been beneficial for it to be more specific, particularly with regard to exercise and reasons to shop, and actually giving an exhaustive list of reasons to be out rather than reasons "including".
The last time I looked at it, it was an instruction to minimise the amount of time spent outside the home, with a set list of specific exclusions (essential shopping, work, medical reasons, exercise). Unfortunately a lot of people seem to be interpreting it in the way you suggest, as a list that can be added to if people feel they can justify it.
 

Bletchleyite

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The last time I looked at it, it was an instruction to minimise the amount of time spent outside the home, with a set list of specific exclusions (essential shopping, work, medical reasons, exercise). Unfortunately a lot of people seem to be interpreting it in the way you suggest, as a list that can be added to if people feel they can justify it.

The latter is what it is, I'd suggest re-reading it. (I refer to the enforceable law, not the advice which is indeed stronger).
 

Mag_seven

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The last time I looked at it, it was an instruction to minimise the amount of time spent outside the home, with a set list of specific exclusions (essential shopping, work, medical reasons, exercise).

Here are the regulations for England


Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;

(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;

(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(1), to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;

(e)to donate blood;

(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

(g)to attend a funeral of—

(i)a member of the person’s household,

(ii)a close family member, or

(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;

(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;

(i)to access critical public services, including—

(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);

(ii)social services;

(iii)services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;

(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);

(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;

(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;

(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;

(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

(4) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

For the reasonable excuses defined above there is nothing about the frequency of those, the length of time that those have to take nor the distance you may travel to undertake those reasonable excuses.
 

Bletchleyite

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For the reasonable excuses defined above there is nothing about the frequency of those, the length of time that those have to take nor the distance you may travel to undertake those reasonable excuses.

And note "reasonable excuses include", which means, depending on the Court's view, other excuses may be reasonable as well.

If it meant what @Belperpete said, it would say "reasonable excuses are exclusively the following", or some such.
 

Enthusiast

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I bet the front garden incident wasn’t in the south-east, where no one actually *uses* their front gardens! It’s absolutely not the done thing at all. ;)
Many houses in the South East don't have front gardens. They have a patch of tarmac or block paving on which they park three or four cars and/or the odd van.:E
 

Tetchytyke

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By omission, shopping for anything not covered by those two categories is not a reasonable excuse for leaving home.

Once again, point me to the piece of legislation where it says you cannot buy "non-essential items" in a shop. Or even where "non-essential" is defined.

Is a pint of milk essential or non-essential? Is it essential if I've stockpiled 22 pints of UHT?

A new TV would meet the legal criteria. Legally, if not ethically, Sports Direct were correct to say they were a shop selling essential supplies.

This is, of course, the problem with trying to enshrine "don't be a pillock" in legislation. It's also why I don't want individual police officers deciding who they consider to be a pillock.
 
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Meerkat

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And note "reasonable excuses include", which means, depending on the Court's view, other excuses may be reasonable as well.

If it meant what @Belperpete said, it would say "reasonable excuses are exclusively the following", or some such.
And that’s why they left it vague - otherwise you have to make a huge list of exceptions which just leads to thousands of questions over those definitions and inevitable need for legal updates.....which can’t be made because the House isn’t sitting.
You need a reasonable excuse to be out of your home. If you are told your excuse isn’t reasonable then accept it or go to court and challenge it - if it makes it to court without the senior coppers or CPS dropping it then you are probably going to lose.
I think sunbathing in the park is reasonable if you are on your exercise walk anyway, but it’s clear most people don’t agree (which is broadly the legal definition of reasonable) so I have to accept that.
Some people seem to be acting like children - wanting to do things because they are not allowed to, then taking every statement ultra literally.
 

Tetchytyke

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I don't know if it's different here, living on an island, but I'm not seeing the level of stupidity that is being reported here by others.

Everyone I see keeps their distance, queues in good spirit, and is just getting on with things.

We went out for a walk along the old railway line this afternoon, everyone kept their distance and everyone smiled and after-you'd at the narrow bits. It's the same when I've gone for a walk or bike ride along the prom during the week. It's even been pleasant in Tesco, everyone standing well apart, even when assistance is needed at the self-service till.

As I said, it might be different living on an island- we really are all in this together. Our laws are slightly stricter than in England- we can only exercise once and the FPN is £250- but I'm not sure that's it.
 

greyman42

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I'm in the centre of York. The police are fine and everyone seems to be sticking to the rules.
 

ChrisC

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And for me (10 miles east of Edinburgh). Being more in the countryside it is easier though. People in Edinburgh may be finding it harder going.

It is much easier out in the country when I’ve been going for a walk every afternoon. I see a small number of people walking through the village near my house and all are keeping very safe distance. Once I leave the village and head over the fields I see no one for the rest of my walk. I do count myself lucky to live in a rural location and feel for those who live in crowded urban areas. I have been surprised by the amount of traffic still coming through the village, even today on a Saturday afternoon. It’s only a fraction of what usually passes through the village along this B road, but still much busier than I would expect.
 

bramling

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And in MK, the place is near-dead and people seem to be being nice about social distancing.

My town seems to have kicked off a little today. Apparently there was trouble on a field on the edge of town - it’s a grass field with a footpath running through the middle, although it’s private land it generally seems to have been used as a grass space without issue for many years, now surprise surprise the owner seems to have appeared and spent the day driving round and round in a land rover moving people on. Then at another open space local residents have been playing loud high pitch noises out the window.

Whilst my views on the lockdown are well documented here, I despite vigilantism even more. Seems like the boredom is getting too much for some.

I’m tempted to incorporate the aforementioned field into my exercise walk tomorrow. In the circumstances it’s probably better for social distancing if people *do* cut across the field rather than everyone congregate on the official path. It’s not like there’s a crop on there or anything.

Meanwhile by evening we seem to have boy racers out in force.
 

sheff1

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I don't know if it's different here, living on an island, but I'm not seeing the level of stupidity that is being reported here by others.

I think the stupidity being reported on here relates to people living on an island :smile:

.... but I have seen no signs of stupidity in this corner of Sheffield (well not related to this anyway !). The paths along the rivers and in the woods can be quite narrow in places but plenty of opportunity at regular intervals to step aside and let people pass, which is exactly what has been happening.
 

Darandio

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What about that funny thing called a radio?
And newspapers?
And the internet?
Because funnily enough I know several people without a TV and they seem to be fully aware of what is going on.

Okay, so you may not pick up a TV when visiting the supermarket for other essential goods but it's no problem going to get your paper every morning. Got it.

I say it slightly in jest but i'm still seeing the same people going for their morning paper, just as they have always done.
 

johnnychips

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I think the stupidity being reported on here relates to people living on an island :smile:

.... but I have seen no signs of stupidity in this corner of Sheffield (well not related to this anyway !). The paths along the rivers and in the woods can be quite narrow in places but plenty of opportunity at regular intervals to step aside and let people pass, which is exactly what has been happening.
Agreed. I went to Meersbrook Park today, and generally people were deliberately social distancing. Probably to the horror of some posters on here, people were sat on benches and sunbathing, but in isolation. Perhaps we are lucky in Sheffield to have a lot of green space in easy reach.
 

yorkie

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OK let's stick to discussing Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc. in this thread please :)

There are plenty of other threads to discuss the other matters, and if there isn't an existing thread already, a new one can be created
 

Mag_seven

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For discussion of essential vs non essential items please see this thread:

 

bramling

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Yes I'm well aware that some places can be toxic especially in certain industries. I would never want to work on a place like that. Some people at certain workplaces just don't realise how privileged they are.

My place is actually not one of those. The ethic is pretty positive, and our scorecard figures bear this out. Quite a few aren't even members of unions. We have some problem people for sure, however generally this isn't allowed to drag the whole place down.

What my place would like to see is just a tiny bit of respect from the wider population to the whole current situation. Just making some attempt to follow the guidelines is all anyone asks, it really isn't too much to expect IMO.

The evidence suggests the NHS isn't going to be overwhelmed and that the R value has been reduced significantly, so while you may (in many cases understandably) not see the actions of certain individuals as fair, it's not going to have the effect you think it is in the grand scheme of things, so I'd try to feel less angry as that will have a detrimental effect on your health and your immune system.
I don't think that's fair comment at all; they are after all allowing people to exercise without Draconian restrictions. Some other countries aren't. I don't have a private garden but I've been out walking for miles and the law allows me to do so in this country.

Yes I agree exercise is a good thing, and indeed I've been attempting to get in some 7-mile walks where I can. Fortunately I'm happy to do this in the evening and am able to walk from my front door and be in remote countryside within a few minutes, so haven't been encountering many people. I've also been building in some walking to work-related activities as far as possible.
 
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