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Letter in The Times - Please Read!

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Ivo

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Paul Withrington’s view (letter, Nov 11) that paving railway tracks would solve our country’s transport capacity problems is seriously flawed.

Understatement of the century.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Would do a list of everything that is wrong with that proposal of his, but iw would be the longest webpage in history. is it something like the 0740 FCC Camb-KGX non-stop has 45% over capacity... how amny coaches do you need to replace that? 40. 50. Chief Idiot award goes to... :D
 

Mojo

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This man has been known about for over ten years and used to post his Spam to uk.railway newsgroup. Someone did some interesting digging up about Whittington's past a few years ago but can't seem to find it. He'll never be taken seriously.
 

222666

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No I would feel safer with rails, remember how / why seatbelts became enforced on [NX] coaches?

I have met people turning up at stations then declaring themselves terrified of speed, this was on a mainline. I'm sure there are people in this country who think we should revert to horse & cart too.

But - think of how much money the govt. would make if they DID tear up all heavy metals the whole rail network & then sold it all!
 

Old Timer

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They are the rantings of a self-delusionist, who appears to have failed as a Civil Engineer and gone into transport planning in a local Council not exactly a paragon of planned transport itself. I wonder if perchance there is some link ? ;) :)

Hardly the CV of someone whom anyone with even half a brain is going to listen to.

His statements are absurd and lack any understanding of how transport actually works, indeed something like 175 coaches would cure all of London's commuting problems seems to be the principle philosophy.

He glosses over a whole hoard of potential engineering and logistical issues but given his exit from Civil Engineering one wonders if they are connected somehow.

The funniest statement is that which notes that none of the letters submitted have been published. A thinking man would see a connection there I suspect.
 

yorksrob

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Oh yes, Transport Watch have been with us for years, with various spurious arguments contrived to come to the same conclusion every single time - to tarmac over the railways.

Their most recent letter to the Times a couple of weeks ago took a novel approach by asking us to consider the efficiency of the French Motorway network as an argument for - (Surprise Surprice it's Cilla here) tarmacking over the railway network. Of course, they completely ommitted to mention that the French Nation still, in spite of the efficiency of their motorway network, sees fit to run a large classic, as well as a substantial high speed railway network to compliment it :lol:
 

MidnightFlyer

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They are the rantings of a self-delusionist, who appears to have failed as a Civil Engineer and gone into transport planning in a local Council not exactly a paragon of planned transport itself. I wonder if perchance there is some link ? ;) :)

Hardly the CV of someone whom anyone with even half a brain is going to listen to.

His statements are absurd and lack any understanding of how transport actually works, indeed something like 175 coaches would cure all of London's commuting problems seems to be the principle philosophy.

He glosses over a whole hoard of potential engineering and logistical issues but given his exit from Civil Engineering one wonders if they are connected somehow.

The funniest statement is that which notes that none of the letters submitted have been published. A thinking man would see a connection there I suspect.

I think the initial letter (the one which contained absolute rubbish) was published in the actual paper :D
 

Old Timer

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It also forgets that the majority of French people live in Paris, and that the Country is dramatically less populated than the UK.....They are all over here I think judging by the number who want to come to London to work :roll:
 

Metroland

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*sigh*

It's basically one man, obsessive and bus nerd Paul Withrington.

He's somebody that is incapable of reasoned debate and has been trying to shut down the railways for over 40 years, pretty much single-handedly. Most of his ideas are taken from the railway conversion league, a group of eccentrics made up of less than 10 people, and actually got BR and the DFT to make a study for them. It was concluded that the idea was flawed. They disbanded years ago, but the bus fantasies live on with some people (well one actually) who think it's a wonderfully good idea that will save so much money supported by dodgy analysis, the savings are almost entirely illusionary, and the service would be significantly slower and would never support a major city in it's transport needs. Which is why places like Dubai, who relied on buses for years, ended up putting in rail because of the gridlock.

Of course they haven't completely given up, which is why we have the St Ives - Cambridge busway, £160 million for no time savings (over current bus timetables) and considered an expensive waste of money by all but a few people.

There's a number of logical errors:

1) Buses have the same passenger KM as rail, yet they have potentially 26 times more right of way. If they were so good they'd have more far more. We don't need to shut down the railways where there a plenty of roads that can be used, like the hard shoulder of motorways. Because this has never been done with the modal shift, proves the whole concept is flawed. To any normal person the suggestion bus lanes on standard roads would suffice, and indeed these are put in. London has some 330 miles of them.

2) They are slow and unattractive, most people would take to their cars. The entire geography of the SE would be changed, and towns like Peterborough, Brighton etc no longer commuterable. Many commuter towns would lose significant income, and house prices driven down.

3) They effectively get a free ride. They get tax refunds on road take. If they had to pay their own right of way, charges would be considerably higher, beyond rail.

4) In practice they are nothing like as environmentally significant as he says. Coaches are commercial because they use pre-book yield management and only run on specific flows. A fairer comparison is buses and coaches, and the combined Co2 pass KM is a lot more than rail. Indeed, coaches are only the same as intercity trains anyway.

5) Flow is nothing like he sates: Bus lane capacity is around 6,000 people per hour max on road, without grade separation. Hardly any of the rail network is grade separated. But rail can achieve 40,000pph (eg jubilee line) or 100,000 pph in the case of Hong Kong. What limits it is 1) demand 2) population density. He doesn't take into account dwell times, junction crossing, and so on. The mathematics is well understood, and it can all be simulated. Indeed, you cannot put more people through many rail stations because there simply isn't the passenger space.

6) The cost: You'd have to write off all costs, £20 billion worth of NR, £20 billion odd leasing companies and legal costs. You'd never get most of it through planning. Then, conversion is between £10 and £100 million a mile, with 10,000 miles I make the total cost nearly £250 billion plus £50 billion railway costs. I'd like to see a bus company pay for that! All this for a much slower, and less attractive journey. You cannot open the space to cars, because typical on road capacity is about the same as one commuter train per hour.

7) No public support

8 ) You'd make 150,000 people directly employed in the railways redundant and 500,000 in directly. The economic folly he doesn't state or include is tax paid on wages, industrial tax, etc. More to the point none of the huge external costs (calculated to be some £40 billion) are included for road. Anyway, the money spent on rail doesn't disappear into the etha, its gets put back into the economy through spending and employment, and external benefits of providing trains: Less pollution, congestion, social inclusion, agglomeration, time savings and so on.

9) It's not cheaper per person anyway, bus fares can be quite a lot higher than rail, they certainly are here. They have 50% of their cost, overall subsidised, like rail in any case. Cars cost typically 50-60p per mile to run, and are only cheaper loaded with 3 people. The road access charges are typically 15 times higher than rail. But that doesn't mean it's profit with the costs to the environment, health, and so on.

10) Disruption: 80% of people arrive in Central London every morning by rail, and significant amounts in other major cities. The modal share on some rail routes is 30-70% v road. What are you going to do? Shut London down. London without rail would be in perpetual gridlock and not be very attractive to business and the jobs it creates.

The man is a right wing idiot frankly, and there is so much spin and bluster on his site it's not worth any consideration to anyone that known anything about the subject. He's been objecting to rail schemes for over 30 years, and cost the taxpayer a lot of money in the process.

I know people who have met him and they state he's obsessed with the subject beyond normality.
 
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Old Timer

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I think the initial letter (the one which contained absolute rubbish) was published in the actual paper :D
Probably was but I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Must have been a slow news day....or it was April 1st.

It is worthy of noting that most of the other anti-Rail mouthpieces and "organisations" give the man a wide berth. No further comment needed.

I would look forward to his thesis on how these coaches would operate during fog and reduced visibility .....If I could be bothered that is.....which I am not. :)
 

Metroland

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This man has been known about for over ten years and used to post his Spam to uk.railway newsgroup. Someone did some interesting digging up about Whittington's past a few years ago but can't seem to find it. He'll never be taken seriously.

Anyone goes on about 'trainspotters' are the only reason railway exists is obviously a joke. There's me reading London business is desperate to have Crossrail because of the employment access opportunities and so on.

I don't think many disagree with him (even some of the TOCs) that railways in the country have gotten too expensive. But a lot of that is political interference and mis-management, the money doesn't go on kit on the ground. The irony is, rail is a cheap form of transport at a basic level, that's why it's so important to economies like India and China.

The site is so anti-rail is beyond belief, if it was a much more reasoned debate, pointing our pros and cons, and appropriate and fair analysis he might get further. My understanding he has very few, if any, supporters. He turned up on the future of rail hearing in parliament (the transcript can be read on hansard) and was made a bit of a fool of, basically will not listen to any other point of view or facts presented.. Anyway, turns out he's funded by someone in Jersey, a tax haven with no railways. Which is all very strange.
 

Oswyntail

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The main problem (for railways) is that, whenever this twerps bile gets printed, there is rarely, if ever, a response from a concerted rail community. This means ATOC, which, in this case, is a tad of a chocolate teapot. Sure, anyone with any knowledge can see through this guff. But most people a) have little knowledge in this area and (perhaps more importantly) b) own or aspire to own cars.
 

swt_passenger

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The scary thing is that over the last few years he has had the same old stuff printed in most of the broadsheets.

I guess they are taken in by his important sounding status as 'Director, Transportwatch'...
 

attics26

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I think its a great idea - here at Darlo passgrs/customers/clients would have no need to negotiate the subway to Victoria road to join a replacement bus/coach service but would remain in the station for the bus/coach to find them! And we could ditch the despatch batons.
 

anonymous0101

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I disagree with this idea but i'm a professional coach driver (well i used to be). Coaches can be quite comfortable and they are allowed 100 kph (62 mph) and their speed limits on other roads are higher than for trucks.

As for situations when the coach is faster than train, two spring to mind.

1) Exeter to Penzance
2) Inverness to Wick
 

yorkie

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'Please read'?! :o

More like 'Lunatic alert. Please ignore everything he says' ;)
 

LE Greys

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I remember this turning up in Private Eye once, thought that it couldn't be real and the writers were taking the p***! Just about sums it up
 

wintonian

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Maybe if he teamed up with Denis Fryer of the South Hants Rail Users Group they could concrete over the tracks and get rid of SWT making them both very happy. :lol:
 

Sapphire Blue

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I disagree with this idea but i'm a professional coach driver (well i used to be). Coaches can be quite comfortable and they are allowed 100 kph (62 mph) and their speed limits on other roads are higher than for trucks.

As for situations when the coach is faster than train, two spring to mind.

1) Exeter to Penzance
2) Inverness to Wick

Even when stopping at every station that the train does?
 

Mex

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... which hasn't been mentioned yet is that double railway lines are too narrow for single-carriageway roads built to modern standards.

Even the quadruple lines we have (mostly in the London area) are too narrow for dual-carriageways which are the recommended layout for trunk roads now.

Who is this guy and is logic not his strong point?
 
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yorksrob

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I disagree with this idea but i'm a professional coach driver (well i used to be). Coaches can be quite comfortable and they are allowed 100 kph (62 mph) and their speed limits on other roads are higher than for trucks.

As for situations when the coach is faster than train, two spring to mind.

1) Exeter to Penzance
2) Inverness to Wick

Well, to give coaches their due, they can be fairly comfortable, but generally I find their lack of facing seats, proper sized tables, catering etc a problem for longer journeys. It was a handy option when I'd missed my AP train but that's really the only occasion when I'd choose them.
 

mumrar

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As for situations when the coach is faster than train.......1) Exeter to Penzance
According to Traveline's searches a coach journey takes 3hrs38min (from Coach stn to bus stn) and the quickest rail journey from St Davids to Penzance is 3hrs02mins. So even compared to the most notably slow main line, the coaches are slower. Now imagine all the trains are gone and the extra traffic on those roads. Don't forget the current road route is much more direct than the railwaym so tarmacing would create a longer journey still. I'd love to see a coach climbing all of the south Devon banks too!

Seeing as you deliberately picked a road favoured example (but why not Fishguard to Aberystwyth or Aberystwyth to Holyhead which a push bike would maybe beat rail?) I'm going to do the opposite.

Again according to Traveline, there is a direct coach from Buchanan St Bus Station in Glasgow to Victoria Coach Station that is booked a peachy 9hrs20mins. I think that steam on the WCML was considerably faster than that LOL. I know nothing of coach operators or coach stations, so I may not have picked the right coach/bus stations. Feel free to correct me, but I doubt it would cut off 5 hours or so.
 
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Metroland

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Well the most laughable thing is really current dual carriageways and motorways would be much quicker than any converted railway line which a very narrow A road with lots of junctions where there are level crossings at best.

The point is with 26 times more roads than railways why would you bother in the first place? If the coaches/buses had to pay for that sort of network billions of pounds worth, it would simply be undercut by those using 'free' motorways (or at least highways the majority of the cost is paid for be car drivers) - in time and cost.

He tries to make out railways have lots of 'white' space. The truth is if I stand by the average A road for an hour, I'd count probably a maximum of around 800 cars, with one mostly one person in, probably carrying 1000 people. The same as one commuter train, which is gone in seconds.

But even the busiest bus corridors, such as the Wilmslow road in Manchester, have no more than a bus every minute. Any more, the buses simply group at flat junctions, or are delayed by passenger unloading, pulling out onto the road. This is about 4800 people an hour. Any decent transport planning book shows the mathematical equations with all this in action.

Alot of the tube lines have trains carrying 1000 people every 2 minutes in the peak (for example the jubilee line which carries 33-39,0000 pph http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/3808.aspx ) and parts of the overground network around London bridge, and the GEML are similar.

System capacities are given here http://cfit.independent.gov.uk/pubs/2005/amt/02.htm

The point is, over a certain flow tram/rail is cheaper and you need less staff.

Of course this is never mentioned, he prefers to do the old trick of doing a median average which includes branch lines that carry sod all and compare that to motorways.

If he had a brain, he'd be arguing for better bus/rail integration, then you get all the advantages of both systems.

Finally you have to laugh about the 'rail lobby' he goes on about, which is mostly made up of volunteer groups like Rail Future.

Never a comparison with the road lobby then? Made up of oil companies (the biggest industry in the world) car user groups with millions of members, and powerful groups like the RHA. Even they give a wide berth as they realise he's around the twist and there is no public support.

Oh and and according to him, trains are used by the rich. Well they serve city centres, full of high paid jobs, but they are not exclusively used by the better off. I can't afford a car, and the reason I'm interested in a rail network, is because I simply cannot get places by much slower bus, no rail network would but me at an amazing disadvantage to such an extent I'd be forced to buy a car costing thousands a year.
 
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